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  1 1     |             the Stoics how to place Matter (on the same level) with
  2 2     |          THINGS OUT OF PRE-EXISTING MATTER.~Our very bad painter has
  3 2     |             that that something was Matter. He could not have made
  4 2     |         something, and that is from Matter, without a doubt.~
  5 3     |       concludes that God always had Matter co-existent with Himself
  6 3     |      Hermogenes) shall suppose that Matter was eternal, on the ground
  7 3     |             For when he denies that Matter was born or made, I find
  8 3     |     unsuitable to God in respect of Matter, because it must have been
  9 3     |        creating (all things) out of Matter, although it had all along
 10 3     |    experienced God as its Lord, yet Matter does, after all, demonstrate
 11 4     |          GIVES DIVINE ATTRIBUTES TO MATTER, AND SO MAKES TWO GODS.~
 12 4     |             shall begin to treat of Matter, how that, (according to
 13 4     |             two gods: he introduces Matter as God's equal. God, however,
 14 4     |           anything equal to it; and Matter will be equal with God when
 15 5     |       AFRAID OF IT. AFTER INVESTING MATTER WITH DIVINE QUALITIES, HE
 16 5     |            GOD.~But God is God, and Matter is Matter. As if a mere
 17 5     |           God is God, and Matter is Matter. As if a mere difference
 18 5     |         mode? God is unborn; is not Matter also unborn? God ever exists;
 19 5     |             God ever exists; is not Matter, too, ever existent? Both
 20 5     |             who created it, and the Matter of which He made it. For
 21 5     |           For it is impossible that Matter should not be regarded as
 22 5     |           he give? Will he say that Matter is not then comparable with
 23 5     |            seem to have accorded to Matter the full amount of the Deity?
 24 5     |          this is the prerogative of Matter, both the authority and
 25 5     |          make gods. The property of Matter, however, he makes to be
 26 5     |          what he does not refuse to Matter should be, after all, the
 27 6     |             IS REDUCED, WHO DEIFIES MATTER, AND YET IS UNWILLING TO
 28 6     |             straightway ascribes to Matter also. He is God, to be sure.
 29 6     |           will make Him a liar. For Matter will be such a God as He
 30 6     |           how is He the first, when Matter is co-eternal with Him?
 31 6     |          sequence of rank. Is then, Matter also the first? "I," says
 32 6     |           asserts the position that Matter was eternal, without any
 33 6     |    encroachment on the condition of Matter the condition of Both being
 34 6     |      unimpugned both in the case of Matter, that it did itself exist,
 35 6     |             existed alone, but with Matter. It also was first with
 36 6     |           and yet not the whole, of Matter. For Him, accordingly, Hermogenes
 37 6     |            not equally conferred on Matter, so that it is not Matter
 38 6     |           Matter, so that it is not Matter which is compared with God,
 39 6     |            God who is compared with Matter. Now, inasmuch as those
 40 6     |       things are also compatible to Matter, I want to know what property
 41 6     |          want to know what property Matter possesses different and
 42 7     |   PRINCIPLES.~When he contends that matter is less than God, and inferior
 43 7     |            also is the condition of Matter. Therefore, of the two Beings
 44 7     |           unborn and unmade God and Matter by reason of the identical
 45 7     |             if it shall be found in Matter as being equally unborn
 46 7     |   distinctions; and thus to subject matter to God, an eternal to the
 47 7     |           Either I am God, or He is Matter, because we both are that
 48 7     |     therefore, that he has not made Matter equal with God, although,
 49 8     |        PRINCIPLES, HERMOGENES MAKES MATTER, ON THE WHOLE, SUPERIOR
 50 8     |           Nay more, he even prefers Matter to God, and rather subjects
 51 8     |          God made all things out of Matter. For if He drew His resources
 52 8     |          the creation of the world, Matter is already found to be the
 53 8     |        thereby clearly subjected to Matter, of which the substance
 54 8     |        property. On this principle, Matter self, no doubt, was not
 55 8     |             of nothing. To be sure, Matter bestowed somewhat on itself
 56 9     |          its Lord that God employed Matter for His creative works,
 57 9     |             a degree, that although Matter was evil, He yet endured
 58 9     |            all possessed power over Matter which He knew to be evil,
 59 9     |        yielding to the condition of Matter, which He would have amended
 60 9     |          His Lordship that God used Matter even of His non-possession
 61 9     |         dominion over it. If indeed Matter shall prove not even to
 62 9     |              make all things out of Matter, by permission, or by force?
 63 10    |             AUTHOR OF EVIL.~Even if Matter had been the perfection
 64 10    |           evil, or else they set up Matter with the Creator, in order
 65 10    |           they may derive evil from Matter, not from the Creator. And
 66 10    |           goodness, endured evil in Matter before He created the world,
 67 10    |          held converse with evil in Matter nay, more, effected His
 68 11    |             REMOVE EVIL FROM GOD TO MATTER. HOW HE FAILS TO DO THIS
 69 11    |         Hermogenes persuade us that Matter is evil? For it will be
 70 11    |             can evil be inherent in Matter, which (since it is eternal)
 71 11    |          being made compatible with Matter, as Hermogenes makes it.
 72 11    |             compatible with it; and Matter will turn out to have a
 73 12    |            Come now, let us suppose Matter to be evil, nay, very evil,
 74 12    |        fixed in evil in the case of Matter, as immoveable and unchangeable
 75 12    |         change from evil to good in Matter, it can be changed from
 76 12    |             apposite to the case of Matter, which is unborn; since
 77 12    |  termination. But bear in mind that Matter has once for all been determined
 78 12    |         thereof refute him. I blame Matter with a like censure, because
 79 12    |             therefore admissible in Matter; and this being the case,
 80 13    |           GROUND OF HERMOGENES THAT MATTER HAS SOME GOOD IN IT. ITS
 81 13    |           fruit, since there is not Matter except what is very evil.
 82 13    |      together, and have imparted to Matter a double nature, productive
 83 13    |         qualities will appertain to Matter, since they are derived
 84 13    |        derived from the property of Matter. At this rate, we shall
 85 13    |             has been subservient to Matter.~
 86 14    |          also argued, that although Matter may have afforded Him the
 87 14    |           detected what was good in matter although this, too, be a
 88 14    |           likewise out of the same (Matter), He is a servant to Matter,
 89 14    |         Matter), He is a servant to Matter, since, of course, it is
 90 14    |             created them, if out of Matter; of His own accord, if out
 91 14    |         since He made all things of Matter, they will have to be ascribed
 92 14    |       nothing, than from one out of Matter. It is more worthy to believe
 93 14    |             we thus even admit that matter had nothing good in it,
 94 14    |         there was no good at all in Matter, it is clear that good was
 95 14    |           that good was not made of Matter, on the express ground indeed
 96 14    |          express ground indeed that Matter did not possess it. Next,
 97 14    |             if good was not made of Matter, it must then have been
 98 15    |             neither produced out of matter, since it was not in it,
 99 15    |           formed of none neither of Matter nor of God. And if good
100 15    |            good proceeded from evil matter, since it issued neither
101 15    |    proceeded from the conversion of Matter contrary to that unchangeable
102 15    |             alleged to proceed from Matter, that it may be the property
103 15    |      produce all good things out of Matter, or rather good things simply,
104 15    |             troubling Himself about Matter also by producing evil likewise,
105 15    |            the same time to prevent Matter being regarded as evil from (
106 15    |             He produces them out of Matter? And if there is this excuse,
107 16    |           God, who made them out of Matter; or to Matter itself, out
108 16    |           them out of Matter; or to Matter itself, out of which He
109 16    |            the Other, because after Matter and God there is not a third.
110 16    |             if both are ascribed to Matter, Matter will evidently be
111 16    |             are ascribed to Matter, Matter will evidently be the very
112 16    |            of good, but inasmuch as Matter is wholly evil, it cannot
113 16    |              then in this case also Matter will be comparable with
114 16    |            evil as well as to good. Matter, however, ought not to be
115 16    |              and the evil belong to Matter then, on the one hand, evil
116 16    |             the other hand, good to Matter. And God, moreover, by making
117 16    |       things and evil things out of Matter, creates them along with
118 16    |       soever He created evil out of Matter, whether it was of His own
119 16    |             was the actual Creator, Matter being simply associated
120 16    |           cause of your introducing Matter. For it is not the less
121 16    |              that it is by means of Matter that God shows Himself the
122 16    |            author of evil, although Matter has been assumed by you
123 16    |           to be the author of evil. Matter being therefore excluded,
124 16    |            had produced them out of Matter. It is liberty, not necessity,
125 17    |           was with some (portion of Matter) that He effected His creation,
126 17    |            have received from that (Matter) itself both the design
127 17    |          according to the nature of Matter, not according to His own
128 17    |       nature not of Himself, but of Matter.~
129 18    |          this as, in very deed, the Matter of all Matter, not liable
130 18    |             deed, the Matter of all Matter, not liable to any end,
131 18    |         this ground Hermogenes puts Matter even before God, by putting
132 19    |         embodied, to be regarded as Matter. We, however, insist on
133 20    |             NOT OUT OF PRE-EXISTENT MATTER.~But in proof that the Greek
134 20    |            have created in, but of, matter. When Wisdom, however, was
135 20    |           intended to create out of matter, He would yet have effected
136 21    |            made out of pre-existent Matter, take care that it be not
137 21    |             things were made out of Matter, because it is not likewise
138 21    |             they were formed)out of Matter there was no such pressing
139 21    |            of their creation out of Matter, if that had been their
140 21    |          had made all things out of Matter, since Matter must have
141 21    |         things out of Matter, since Matter must have been the source;
142 22    |          made out of any underlying Matter, I have as yet failed anywhere
143 23    |        resolves the word earth into Matter, because that which is made
144 23    |          void, because he will have Matter to have existed shapeless
145 23    |              We are of opinion that Matter is pointed at in these terms.
146 23    |    Scripture intimate that, because Matter was in existence before
147 23    |            it? Nothing of the kind. Matter might have had existence,
148 23    |           have made anything out of Matter. Its existence must therefore
149 23    |          one too, because it is not Matter which has produced the heresy,
150 23    |          the heresy has rather made Matter itself.~
151 24    |           XXIV. EARTH DOES NOT MEAN MATTER AS HERMOGENES WOULD HAVE
152 24    |            of which he thought that Matter was signified. And first
153 24    |            Earth; the other, namely Matter, we do not meet with. I
154 24    |            with. I ask, then, since Matter is not mentioned in Scripture,
155 24    |       should also have been made of Matter, if this has acquired the
156 24    |            one and the same name as Matter, and so not claim the designation
157 24    |           it the common term of all Matter. For when a proper name
158 24    |   Hermogenes could show us the name Matter, he is bound to prove to
159 25    |      beginning; the other being the Matter of which God made the world,
160 25    |       proper name of the (original) Matter, this world of ours, which
161 25    |         world of ours, which is not Matter, because it has become another
162 25    |              But (you will tell me) Matter which has undergone creation,
163 25    |             of that earth, which is Matter, has come over this earth
164 25    |             why also is the one not Matter as the other is? Indeed,
165 25    |          had the names of Earth and Matter, since they all consist
166 25    |           since they all consist of Matter. I have said enough touching
167 25    |          which he will have it that Matter is understood. This, as
168 26    |        mention of his subject, i.e. Matter, without even giving us
169 27    |             of being supposed to be Matter. Well now, for my own part,
170 27    |          not, and which is not your Matter. For of everything which
171 28    |               For, inasmuch as pure Matter was thus subsistent with
172 28    |        inherent in the substance of Matter, a position which we shall
173 28    |         made. Certainly, you admit. Matter, therefore, which was not
174 29    |            the dry land Earth," not Matter. And so, when it afterwards
175 29    |            completion. Now no other Matter was "without form (invisible)
176 29    |            void." Henceforth, then, Matter will have to be visible
177 29    |        complete. So that I must see Matter, since it has become visible.
178 29    |            may minister to my need. Matter, however, is nowhere, but
179 30    |             for his massive pile of Matter. Now, so discriminating
180 30    |            indeed, would it be that Matter, which is introduced to
181 30    |            many parts combined. Now Matter either had those specific
182 31    |         made, appertain to unformed Matter. To this point also we must
183 31    |          human limbs must belong to Matter, because they are not specially
184 32    |             if it were subjoined to matter. Of darkness, indeed, the
185 32    |              it is true, but out of Matter, since the very statement
186 32    |           of the waters," refers to Matter, as indeed do all those
187 32    |     separate parts were made out of Matter. It must follow, then, that
188 32    |              And, as we said above, Matter could not have been without
189 32    |        either Moses then pointed to Matter when he wrote the words: "
190 32    |           have been made out of the Matter which, according to you,
191 32    |          specific parts, and not to Matter, I want to know where Matter
192 32    |        Matter, I want to know where Matter has been pointed out at
193 33    |            TRUE DOCTRINE CONCERNING MATTER. ITS RELATION TO GOD'S CREATION
194 33    |          that they were made out of Matter. And even if Matter had
195 33    |          out of Matter. And even if Matter had previously existed,
196 33    |         room for controversy, until Matter is brought to the test of
197 34    |              that is to say, out of Matter; neither out of greater
198 35    |            BY HERMOGENES RESPECTING MATTER AND ITS QUALITIES.~As regards
199 35    |           all other points touching Matter, although there is no necessity
200 35    |            contradictory positions. Matter, says he, at first sight
201 35    |             Hermogenes, which makes Matter neither corporeal nor incorporeal, (
202 35    |           his reason declared, that Matter is neither corporeal nor
203 36    |          ABSURD THEORIES RESPECTING MATTER AND ITS INCIDENTS EXPOSED
204 36    |          IRONICAL STRAIN, MOTION IN MATTER. HERMOGENES' CONCEITS RESPECTING
205 36    |               when he declares that Matter partly corporeal and partly
206 36    |       partly incorporeal. Then must Matter be considered (to embrace)
207 36    |            by the corporeal part of Matter, he means that of which
208 36    |             the incorporeal part of Matter, he means its uncreated
209 36    |      uncreated motion. If, says he, Matter were simply a body, there
210 36    |        reckon motion as a moiety of Matter, seeing that it is not a
211 36    |             the incorporeal part of matter. All things, indeed, have
212 36    |       assign an integral portion of Matter to motion, which does not
213 36    |         into your head to represent matter as immoveable, would then
214 37    |        IRONICAL DILEMMAS RESPECTING MATTER, AND SUNDRY MORAL QUALITIES
215 37    |             introduce to our notice Matter as being neither corporeal
216 37    |           of good and evil touching Matter, I will now reply to the
217 37    |          have said for certain that Matter was either good or bad,
218 37    |      retract what you declared that Matter is neither good nor evil;
219 37    |     proposition, I here contend: If Matter had always been good, why
220 37    |              And in like manner, if Matter had been by nature evil,
221 37    |          only compare the Lord with Matter, but you even put Him below
222 37    |           affirm that the nature of Matter could not possibly be brought
223 37    |           disinclined to allow that Matter is by nature evil, yet in
224 38    |   SPECULATIONS OF HERMOGENES, ABOUT MATTER AND SOME OF ITS ADJUNCTS,
225 38    |   observations touching the site of Matter, as also concerning its
226 38    |         perverse positions. You put Matter below God, and thus, of
227 38    |             it below God. Therefore Matter is local. Now, if it is
228 38    |             susceptible of outline. Matter, therefore, cannot be infinite,
229 38    |             your meaning to be that Matter is infinite in time, not
230 38    |      infinity to be an attribute of Matter, that it is in respect of
231 38    |   contradict yourself when you make Matter infinite in bulk, and at
232 39    |         FIRST PRINCIPLES RESPECTING MATTER, FORMERLY LAID DOWN BY HERMOGENES.~
233 39    |            the correcter thing, let Matter be circumscribed by means
234 39    | unchangeable and indivisible. Since Matter too is estimated by the
235 39    |         then is this possession (of Matter)by all things throughout
236 40    |                       XL. SHAPELESS MATTER AN INCONGRUOUS ORIGIN FOR
237 40    |    SUPPOSING THAT ONLY A PORTION OF MATTER WAS USED IN THE CREATION.~
238 40    |          THE CREATION.~You say that Matter was reformed for the betters
239 40    |         that unformed and shapeless Matter answers to Matter which
240 40    |         shapeless Matter answers to Matter which is now arranged and
241 40    |             once that was formed in Matter, that the world is the mirror
242 40    |          the world is the mirror of Matter? Since the world is known
243 40    |      present the image of unadorned Matter, in such a way that you
244 40    |          declared that the whole of Matter was not used as material
245 40    |        propriety be called parts of Matter, since they have quit-ted
246 41    |   SPECULATIONS RESPECTING MOTION IN MATTER, AND THE MATERIAL QUALITIES
247 41    |            at every step. Motion in Matter was disordered, and confused,
248 41    |          when you want to represent Matter as neither good nor evil,
249 41    |            good nor evil, you say: "Matter, which is the substratum (
250 41    |              although the motion of Matter was not prone either to
251 41    | circumstance too it is obvious that Matter is contained within certain
252 41    |           you assert that motion in Matter inclined to neither of them.
253 41    |             to neither of them. For Matter which was local, when inclining
254 41    |          access to a body. But when Matter inclined not to good and
255 41    |             when you keep motion in Matter poised equally distant from
256 42    |             THE DIVINE QUALITIES OF MATTER.~You have thrown out all
257 42    |           You allege that motion in Matter is without regularity, and
258 42    |           and you go on to say that Matter aims at a shapeless condition,
259 42    |          should seem to be equal to Matter; and then again you say
260 42    |            of being set in order by Matter, by His having Himself something
261 42    |       necessity, since there was in Matter something on account of
262 42    |         What less do you ascribe to Matter than to God? There will
263 42    |           God motion is regular, in Matter irregular. In both, however,
264 42    |            time, you assign more to Matter, to which belonged the privilege
265 43    |      REFUTED RESPECTING THE EVIL IN MATTER BEING CHANGED TO GOOD.~On
266 43    |              you say that motion in Matter, before it was regulated,
267 43    |            respecting the nature of Matter. In a former passage you
268 43    |         former passage you say, "If Matter were naturally evil, it
269 43    |             your two opinions, that Matter was not by nature evil,
270 44    |            S METHOD OF WORKING WITH MATTER EXPOSED. DISCREPANCIES IN
271 44    |             GOD'S LOCAL RELATION TO MATTER.~But it remains that I should
272 44    |          maintain that God pervaded Matter, just as honey the honeycomb.
273 44    |         that it is not by pervading Matter that God makes the world,
274 44    |             even if God appeared to Matter, He yet did not wound it,
275 44    |        appearing and approaching to Matter that God made the world,
276 44    |             God had not appeared to Matter of the same nature as it
277 44    |           Himself so far aloof from Matter as to have neither appeared
278 45conc|          OUT OF NOTHING, NOT OUT OF MATTER.~But it is not thus that
279 45conc|           appearing and approaching Matter. They did not even mention
280 45conc|            did not even mention any Matter, but (said) that Wisdom
281 45conc|           no parts of a nondescript Matter, but they are the sensible
282 45conc|        traceable or discoverable in Matter, they would be capable of
283 45conc|             has become evident that Matter had no prior existence (
284 45conc|       Hermogenes, by describing for Matter a condition like his own