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  1 Pre |             and there is a certain abruptness and agroikia in the conversation,
  2 Pre |     political economy and gives an abstract form to some of its principal
  3 Text|             reading polumatheian, ‘abundant learning.’), and is skilful
  4 Text|             And was not his prayer accomplished, and did not many and terrible
  5 Text|            who the foolish. For we acknowledged that there are these two
  6 Pre |          writer seems to have been acquainted with the ‘Laws’ of Plato (
  7     | across
  8 Text|         own citizens,—and of their actions we have been not hearers,
  9 Text|  Lacedaemonians, too, whether from admiration of the poet or because they
 10 Text|          other Hellenic state, and adorn their temples with gifts,
 11 Text|            beneficial, he will act advantageously both for himself and for
 12 Text|          It seems to be altogether advisable to put off the sacrifice
 13 Text|     example, who from time to time advise us about war and peace,
 14 Text|      should call wise and a useful adviser both of himself and of the
 15 Text|          the management of her own affairs, all happens by the counsel
 16 Text|          speaking the truth when I affirmed that the possession of any
 17 Text|           deed, but rather him who affirms the contrary, if the act
 18 Text|          among persons of your own age or older than yourself there
 19 Text|            power.~SOCRATES: We are agreed, then, that every form of
 20 Pre |           a certain abruptness and agroikia in the conversation, which
 21 Text|         SOCRATES: While others are ailing?~ALCIBIADES: Yes.~SOCRATES:
 22 Text|          they say that Orestes and Alcmeon and others have done towards
 23 Pre |           well known at Athens and Alexandria. They exhibit considerable
 24 Text|         clearly because he was not allowed by the God to do so;—but
 25 Text|        said to be here employed in allusion to the quotation from the ‘
 26     | almost
 27 Text|           they either bring to the altar bulls with gilded horns
 28 Text|          put aside again and quite alter your mind. If the God to
 29 Text|         ALCIBIADES: It seems to be altogether advisable to put off the
 30     | always
 31 Text|          us; But that which we ask amiss, do thou avert.’ (The author
 32 Text|         the state would be full of anarchy and lawlessness?~ALCIBIADES:
 33 Pre |           to be modern rather than ancient, and which therefore have
 34 Text|       unlike him, they were not in anger nor thought that they were
 35 Text|           of sacrificing blemished animals to them, and in various
 36 Text|       victory. The Athenians being annoyed and perplexed how to find
 37 Text|       found also in the Anthology (Anth. Pal.).)~In my opinion,
 38 Text|         They are found also in the Anthology (Anth. Pal.).)~In my opinion,
 39 Pre |            writings, the one which anticipates in the most striking manner
 40 Text|      should appear to you, and, in anticipation of your request, enquired
 41 Text|        most excelled.’ (Euripides, Antiope.)~—I mean that which was
 42     | anywhere
 43 Pre |        melesei tis...kaka: oti pas aphron mainetai): and the writer
 44 Pre |        Plato (compare Protag; Ion; Apol.). The characters are ill-drawn.
 45 Text|        They only differ as one art appeared to us to differ from another
 46 Text|         the same?~ALCIBIADES: That appears to be the case.~SOCRATES:
 47 Text|         which was composed of good archers and flute-players and athletes
 48 Text|          and terrible evils thence arise, upon which I need not dilate?~
 49 Text|      tyranny, or the command of an army, or any of the numerous
 50 Text|      difference between the clever artist and the wise man?~ALCIBIADES:
 51 Text|           an illustration from the artizans?~ALCIBIADES: Certainly.~
 52 Pre |            and have no claim to be ascribed to Plato. They are examples
 53 Text|       inclined to suppose, you put aside again and quite alter your
 54 Text|           from evil even though we asked for it?~ALCIBIADES: I believe
 55 Text|           not come back to our old assertion that the many fail to obtain
 56 Pre |           Platonic dialogues to be assigned probably to the second or
 57 Pre |            are ill-drawn. Socrates assumes the ‘superior person’ and
 58 Text|          is now enveloped, just as Athene in Homer removes the mist
 59 Text|      archers and flute-players and athletes and masters in other arts,
 60 Text|          Pericles, you would never attack him?~ALCIBIADES: Never.~
 61 Text|     SOCRATES: And if you made many attempts, and each time failed to
 62 Text|          we seek.~ALCIBIADES: I am attending, Socrates, to the best of
 63 Text|           if you give me your best attention, ‘two of us’ looking together,
 64 Pre |        spurious work, which may be attributed to the second or third century
 65 Text|          if he were likely to gain aught by prayer, has refrained
 66 Text|        amiss, do thou avert.’ (The author of these lines, which are
 67 Pre |         Aristotle, or by any early authority, and have no claim to be
 68 Text|         they blame the gods as the authors of the ills which befall
 69 Text|          But the blessed Gods were averse and received it not. For
 70 Text|        which we ask amiss, do thou avert.’ (The author of these lines,
 71 Text|         his present evils might be averted, but called down new ones.
 72 Text|     SOCRATES: And have we not come back to our old assertion that
 73 Text|         wiser than we are, when he bade us (pray God) to defend
 74 Text|           the Hellenes and all the barbarians in exchange for your life?~
 75 Text|           war, our city lost every battle by land and sea and never
 76 Text|         They seem to me to have no bearing on the point whatever.~SOCRATES:
 77 Text|           and have been struck and beaten and endured every other
 78 Text|            will give unto them the beautiful as well as the good:—no
 79 Pre |            power over language, or beauty of style; and there is a
 80 Text|          authors of the ills which befall them (compare Republic): ‘
 81 Text|          sufferings. For some have begotten children who were utterly
 82 Text|         seize on a man who is of a begrudging temper and does not care
 83 Text|      offered up a common prayer in behalf of them all:—~‘King Zeus,
 84 Text|          we find out how we should behave towards the Gods and towards
 85 Text|           say in the play, when he beholds Teiresias with his crown
 86 Pre |      modern critic, and was hardly believed by the ancients themselves.
 87 Text|         Macedonia was slain by his beloved (compare Aristotle, Pol.),
 88 Text|           knows, and the result is beneficial, he will act advantageously
 89 Text|           likely to injure than to benefit the possessor, unless he
 90 Text|         return home they have been beset by informers worse than
 91     | besides
 92     | beyond
 93 Text|         SOCRATES: You ought not to bid him use auspicious words,
 94 Text|           to him in which the poet blamed his enemy:—~‘...Full many
 95 Text|        sacrifice when he hears the blasphemy which you utter, and make
 96 Text|        have a habit of sacrificing blemished animals to them, and in
 97 Text|     heavens by the winds;~‘But the blessed Gods were averse and received
 98 Text|            it is foolish for us to boast that we are superior to
 99 Text|            in pursuit of wealth or bodily strength or anything else,
100 Text|         how the ‘sweet savour’ was borne ‘to the heavens by the winds;~‘
101 Text|          ride or to shoot with the bow or to box or to wrestle,
102 Text|           shoot with the bow or to box or to wrestle, or to engage
103 Text|            way you speak of a good boxer or a good flute-player or
104 Text|      usurers, to be gained over by bribes. And it is foolish for us
105 Text|         believe, hurry through the brief space of human life, pilotless
106 Text|          Hellenes. For they either bring to the altar bulls with
107 Text|           is the right word)—~‘Has brought these unmeasured woes upon
108 Text|        about war and peace, or the building of walls and the construction
109 Text|          either bring to the altar bulls with gilded horns or make
110 Text|        whether they understand the business in hand, or only think that
111 Text|        evils might be averted, but called down new ones. And was not
112 Text|            slay the first woman he came across, nor any one else’
113 Text|          suppose that he was quite capable of praying for what was
114 Text|         seem to be troubled and to cast your eyes on the ground,
115 Text|          sacrifices, which men may celebrate year after year, although
116 Pre |  attributed to the second or third century before Christ.~
117 Text|          certain of our elders. It chanced that when the Athenians
118 Text|           by nature an enigmatical character, and it is by no means everybody
119 Pre |           Protag; Ion; Apol.). The characters are ill-drawn. Socrates
120 Pre |            or third century before Christ.~
121 Pre |        prayer which have perplexed Christian theologians were not unknown
122 Text|         look at certain of our own citizens,—and of their actions we
123 Text|           that there are these two classes? Did we not?~ALCIBIADES:
124 Text|     prophet made no direct answer,—clearly because he was not allowed
125 Text|            that Alcibiades, son of Cleinias, was tyrant:—in such a case,
126 Text|    knowledge, just as the sick man clings to the physician, or the
127 Pre |            the Symposium is rather clumsily introduced, and two somewhat
128 Text|    resolved to disobey none of his commands, if I am likely to be the
129 Text|            would not be willing to commit so horrible a deed, but
130 Text|           year, although they have committed innumerable crimes against
131 Text|          profit them, offered up a common prayer in behalf of them
132 Text|      terrors were of profit to the commonwealth, there would be reason in
133 Text|      although he has none of these complaints? Surely, they are not the
134 Text|            that would be which was composed of good archers and flute-players
135 Text|    knowledge for any person in any conceivable case?~SOCRATES: So I believe:—
136 Text|         some third or intermediate condition, in which he is neither
137 Pre |           Alexandria. They exhibit considerable originality, and are remarkable
138 Text|       could not answer you without consideration. It seems to me to be a
139 Text|           days, he was in his turn conspired against and slain. Or look
140 Text|          building of walls and the construction of harbours, whether they
141 Text|          God whom you are about to consult should appear to you, and,
142 Pre |             and are remarkable for containing several thoughts of the
143 Text|      enquired whether you would be contented to become tyrant of Athens,
144 Text|        engage in any other sort of contest or to do anything whatever
145 Pre |     abruptness and agroikia in the conversation, which is very un-Platonic.
146 Pre |          passages which are either corrupt or extremely ill-expressed.
147 Text|        affairs, all happens by the counsel of the orators.~ALCIBIADES:
148 Text|        storm oppress us.’~And so I count your gift to be a token
149 Text|        live in safety with so many crazy people? Should we not long
150 Text|         have committed innumerable crimes against the Gods or against
151 Pre |           maintained by any modern critic, and was hardly believed
152 Text|          to the Gods we will offer crowns and perform the other customary
153 Text|            evils seems more like a curse than a prayer.~SOCRATES:
154 Text|       crowns and perform the other customary rites when I see that day
155 Text|         him to do, would ever have dared to venture on such a crime?~
156 Text|         first of all, I think, the darkness must be taken away in which
157 Text|           to inflict? Consider, my dear friend: may it not be quite
158 Pre |        recur. The reference to the death of Archelaus as having occurred ‘
159 Text|         remedy for their troubles, decided to send and enquire at the
160 Text|           as Ammon and his prophet declare, are no receivers of gifts,
161 Text|          mass of mankind would not decline to accept a tyranny, or
162 Text|            to commit so horrible a deed, but rather him who affirms
163 Text|               An auspicious omen I deem thy victor’s wreath: For
164 Text|           great evils for himself, deeming that he is asking for good,
165 Text|           he bade us (pray God) to defend us from evil even though
166 Text|           and, as you were saying, demand the opposite of what he
167 Text|         case, I imagine, you would depart full of joy, as one who
168 Text|        physician, or the passenger depends for safety on the pilot.
169 Text|           prefer gentler language, describe them as ‘romantic’ or ‘simple-minded,’
170 Text|         guidance, will make, as he deserves, a sorry voyage:— he will,
171 Text|            MSS.)~SOCRATES: For you designed to kill, not the first who
172 Text|     nevertheless fallen victims to designing enemies. You must have heard
173 Pre |           ancients themselves. The dialectic is poor and weak. There
174 Pre |          Alcibiades shows that the difficulties about prayer which have
175 Text|        nature and greatness of the difficulty in which you, like others,
176 Text|           to the point at which we digressed. We said at first that we
177 Text|       arise, upon which I need not dilate?~ALCIBIADES: Yes, Socrates,
178 Text|            having long desired and diligently laboured to obtain a tyranny,
179 Text|          the mist from the eyes of Diomede that~‘He may distinguish
180 Text|          them, the prophet made no direct answer,—clearly because
181 Text|            you change about in all directions, and never come to rest
182 Text|        almost superhuman wisdom to discover what the poet would be at.
183 Text|          poet or because they have discovered the idea for themselves,
184 Text|       SOCRATES: Well, then, let us discuss who these are. We acknowledge
185 Text|       effect, and yet they are all diseases. May we not take an illustration
186 Text|           is; but I am resolved to disobey none of his commands, if
187 Pre |         poet, who is of a reserved disposition, is uncommonly difficult
188 Text|          enumerate. All have their distinct employments and all are
189 Pre |   themselves: yet it may claim the distinction of being, among all Greek
190 Text|            that his children might divide their inheritance between
191 Text|         Homer, the wisest and most divine of poets, was unaware of
192 Pre |           to some of its principal doctrines.~For the translation of
193 Text|          foolishly praying for and doing things which would not really
194 Text|            sword and, going to the doors of his house, were to enquire
195 Pre |          of Plato. The Eryxias was doubted by the ancients themselves:
196 Text|            away his property or to drive him from his native land,
197 Text|          Some words appear to have dropped out here.) You would distinguish
198 Text|             the fault has not been due to their prayer. For surely,
199     | during
200 Pre |            by Aristotle, or by any early authority, and have no claim
201 Pre |      similar phrase occurs;—ta gar echthes kai proen gegonota tauta,
202 Pre |        modern science of political economy and gives an abstract form
203 Text|       result, but each has its own effect, and yet they are all diseases.
204 Text|          heard from certain of our elders. It chanced that when the
205 Text|          margos is said to be here employed in allusion to the quotation
206 Text|            All have their distinct employments and all are workmen, although
207 Text|            Trojans in making their encampment,~‘Offered up whole hecatombs
208 Text|         been struck and beaten and endured every other form of ill-usage
209 Text|        fallen victims to designing enemies. You must have heard of
210 Text|          which the poet blamed his enemy:—~‘...Full many a thing
211 Text|           box or to wrestle, or to engage in any other sort of contest
212 Text|            poetry has by nature an enigmatical character, and it is by
213 Text|      anticipation of your request, enquired whether you would be contented
214 Text|           whom we need not stop to enumerate. All have their distinct
215 Text|          in which your soul is now enveloped, just as Athene in Homer
216 Text|         the shrine of Ammon. Their envoys were also to ask, ‘Why the
217 Text|     although their wealth is quite equal to ours.’ When they had
218 Text|    SOCRATES: It is he who takes an especial interest in you. But first
219 Text|            rivalling the other and esteeming that of the greatest importance
220 Text|         were ruler of the whole of Europe, should promise, not only
221 Text|         own knowledge?~ALCIBIADES: Exactly.~SOCRATES: Oedipus, as I
222 Text|           and received it not. For exceedingly did they hate the holy Ilium,
223 Text|            Wherein he himself most excelled.’ (Euripides, Antiope.)~—
224 Text|          as you have given me such excellent advice, and to the Gods
225 Text|          and all the barbarians in exchange for your life?~ALCIBIADES:
226 Pre |        Athens and Alexandria. They exhibit considerable originality,
227 Text|          some are even to this day exiles from the city, while others
228 Text|            the only maladies which exist?~ALCIBIADES: Certainly not.~
229 Text|       which wishes to have a right existence must hold firmly to this
230 Text|           for him. The tyrannicide expected by his crime to become tyrant
231 Pre |        which are either corrupt or extremely ill-expressed. But there
232 Text|         have been not hearers, but eyewitnesses,—who have desired to obtain
233 Text|            assertion that the many fail to obtain the best because
234 Text|            attempts, and each time failed to recognize Pericles, you
235 Text|       stress than Creon, and would fain carry off the victory over
236 Text|          least, if the argument is fallacious, it would be difficult for
237 Text|         the argument has played us false.~ALCIBIADES: But I do not
238 Text|         even they who seem to have fared best, have not only gone
239 Text|       talking in riddles after the fashion of his tribe. For all poetry
240 Text|           met with misfortune, the fault has not been due to their
241 Text|            public and private, and favour some persons and not others?~
242 Text|            and evil. At present, I fear, this is beyond your power.~
243 Text|          the Gods or against their fellow-men or the state. For the Gods,
244 Pre |            quite lately’ is only a fiction, probably suggested by the
245 Text|         say,) ‘offer them more and finer sacrifices than any other
246 Text|          right existence must hold firmly to this knowledge, just
247 Text|      gained it by his skill as the first-fruits of the spoil:—~‘An auspicious
248 Text|          of a good boxer or a good flute-player or a good performer in any
249 Text|       composed of good archers and flute-players and athletes and masters
250 Text|            they once were by their foes, insomuch that several of
251 Pre |         were not unknown among the followers of Plato. The Eryxias was
252 Text|         SOCRATES: But now see what follows, if I can (make it clear
253 Text|          as I believe, his friends foolishly praying for and doing things
254     | formerly
255 Text|            they have not been less fortunate than other men; or if they
256 Text|          held the tyranny three or four days, he was in his turn
257 Text|           knew them all badly.’ (A fragment from the pseudo-Homeric
258 Text|            those who are in such a frame of mind, and have such ideas?~
259 Text|           seeing as I believe, his friends foolishly praying for and
260 Text|           unsaid. Homer, too, will furnish us with similar stories.
261     | further
262 Text|           or, if he were likely to gain aught by prayer, has refrained
263 Text|         will be losers rather than gainers?~ALCIBIADES: What you say
264 Pre |          similar phrase occurs;—ta gar echthes kai proen gegonota
265 Pre |           ta gar echthes kai proen gegonota tauta, k.t.l. There are
266 Pre |    probably to the second or third generation after Plato, when his writings
267 Text|         idiotic,’ or, if we prefer gentler language, describe them
268 Pre |         the Second Alcibiades is a genuine writing of Plato will not
269 Text|          that you were suddenly to get into your head that it would
270 Text|            to the altar bulls with gilded horns or make offerings
271 Pre |           of political economy and gives an abstract form to some
272 Text|          teacher? I should be very glad to see the man.~SOCRATES:
273 Text|           rather than have had the glories of command. If, indeed,
274 Pre |            That the Dialogue which goes by the name of the Second
275 Text|        things, he must have been a good-for-nothing, unless the argument has
276 Text|         your gift to be a token of good-fortune; for I am in no less stress
277 Text|           obtained the greatest of goods.~ALCIBIADES: And not only
278 Pre |       hackneyed quotations (Symp., Gorg.) recur. The reference to
279 Pre |          probably suggested by the Gorgias, where the story of Archelaus
280 Text|          ask, ‘Why the Gods always granted the victory to the Lacedaemonians?’ ‘
281 Text|        must see now the nature and greatness of the difficulty in which
282 Pre |    distinction of being, among all Greek or Roman writings, the one
283 Text|           to cast your eyes on the ground, as though you were thinking
284 Text|         Pericles, your kinsman and guardian, and were to seize a sword
285 Text|            but is under some other guidance, will make, as he deserves,
286 Text|          the Gods that they have a habit of sacrificing blemished
287 Pre |       introduced, and two somewhat hackneyed quotations (Symp., Gorg.)
288 Text|         understand the business in hand, or only think that they
289 Text|            the God in prayer, lest haply he should refuse your sacrifice
290 Text|     moreover, the spirit of poetry happen to seize on a man who is
291 Text|            must have heard of what happened only the other day, how
292 Text|            of her own affairs, all happens by the counsel of the orators.~
293 Text|            and have been so little happier than the others that they
294 Text|           and afterwards to have a happy life; but when he had held
295 Text|            and the construction of harbours, whether they understand
296 Pre |         any modern critic, and was hardly believed by the ancients
297 Text|            things which cause more harm than good: but rather, if
298 Text|           For exceedingly did they hate the holy Ilium, Both Priam
299 Text|       gifts, seeing that they were hateful to the Gods, who are not,
300 Text|          there are some who are in health?~ALCIBIADES: There are.~
301 Text|           actions we have been not hearers, but eyewitnesses,—who have
302 Text|          savour’ was borne ‘to the heavens by the winds;~‘But the blessed
303 Pre |           Alcibiades is stupid and heavy-in-hand. There are traces of Stoic
304 Text|      encampment,~‘Offered up whole hecatombs to the immortals,’~and how
305 Text|        happy life; but when he had held the tyranny three or four
306 Text|          to it the dominion of all Hellas; and seeing that even then
307 Text|          sacrifices than any other Hellenic state, and adorn their temples
308     | hence
309 Text|            keep silence; for your ‘highmindedness’—to use the mildest term
310 Text|        have a right existence must hold firmly to this knowledge,
311 Text|      exceedingly did they hate the holy Ilium, Both Priam and the
312 Text|            to be a wild thing (The Homeric word margos is said to be
313 Text|         and justice are especially honoured both by the Gods and by
314 Text|            altar bulls with gilded horns or make offerings to the
315 Text|            be willing to commit so horrible a deed, but rather him who
316 Text|          going to the doors of his house, were to enquire if he were
317 Text|         through the brief space of human life, pilotless in mid-ocean,
318 Text|       voyage:— he will, I believe, hurry through the brief space
319 Text|         less far gone ‘stupid’ or ‘idiotic,’ or, if we prefer gentler
320 Text| exceedingly did they hate the holy Ilium, Both Priam and the people
321 Text|           hear them using words of ill omen they reject these costly
322 Pre |         Apol.). The characters are ill-drawn. Socrates assumes the ‘superior
323 Pre |        either corrupt or extremely ill-expressed. But there is a modern interest
324 Text|        endured every other form of ill-usage which madmen are wont to
325 Text|       diseases. May we not take an illustration from the artizans?~ALCIBIADES:
326 Text|        likely to suffer thereby or immediately to lose his life. And yet
327 Text|          up whole hecatombs to the immortals,’~and how the ‘sweet savour’
328 Text|           instructor take away the impediment, whether it pleases him
329 Text|    perchance without knowing it he implore great evils for himself,
330 Text|     esteeming that of the greatest importance in the state,~‘Wherein he
331 Text|          poets, was unaware of the impossibility of knowing a thing badly:
332 Text|        find many who (have offered inauspicious prayers), although, unlike
333 Pre |           Plato (compare Laws). An incident from the Symposium is rather
334 Text|        what you once most strongly inclined to suppose, you put aside
335 Text|          much worship. The idea is inconceivable that the Gods have regard,
336 Pre |           these two dialogues I am indebted to my friend and secretary,
337 Text|        term between discretion and indiscretion?~ALCIBIADES: True.~SOCRATES:
338 Text|       SOCRATES:—If, then, you went indoors, and seeing him, did not
339 Text|           again, as ‘innocent’ or ‘inexperienced’ or ‘foolish.’ You may even
340 Text|           which madmen are wont to inflict? Consider, my dear friend:
341 Pre |          There are traces of Stoic influence in the general tone and
342 Text|            they have been beset by informers worse than they once were
343 Text|        children might divide their inheritance between them by the sword:
344 Text|     simple-minded,’ or, again, as ‘innocent’ or ‘inexperienced’ or ‘
345 Text|       although they have committed innumerable crimes against the Gods
346 Text|          He must be either sane or insane?~ALCIBIADES: So I suppose.~
347 Text|           once were by their foes, insomuch that several of them have
348 Text|          the story of Oedipus, for instance, who prayed that his children
349 Text|            ALCIBIADES: Only let my instructor take away the impediment,
350 Text|           of them lack of sense is intended. They only differ as one
351 Text|          or is there some third or intermediate condition, in which he is
352 Text|            means everybody who can interpret it. And if, moreover, the
353 Pre |     understand, and the ridiculous interpretation of Homer, are entirely in
354 Pre |       Symposium is rather clumsily introduced, and two somewhat hackneyed
355 Pre |          of Plato (compare Protag; Ion; Apol.). The characters
356 Text|           you would depart full of joy, as one who had obtained
357 Pre |          kai proen gegonota tauta, k.t.l. There are several passages
358 Pre |      phrase occurs;—ta gar echthes kai proen gegonota tauta, k.
359 Pre |         compare opos melesei tis...kaka: oti pas aphron mainetai):
360 Text|        seems to me that you should keep silence; for your ‘highmindedness’—
361 Text|            manifest his wisdom but keeps it to himself as far as
362 Text|            others of all sorts and kinds, whom we need not stop to
363 Text|       thing to kill Pericles, your kinsman and guardian, and were to
364 Pre |          friend and secretary, Mr. Knight.~That the Dialogue which
365 Text|            s wreath: For well thou knowest that wave and storm oppress
366 Pre |          proen gegonota tauta, k.t.l. There are several passages
367 Text|         you believe that a man may labour under some other disease,
368 Text|        long desired and diligently laboured to obtain a tyranny, thinking
369 Text|           them; but by all of them lack of sense is intended. They
370 Text|            that he would ever have laid hands upon her?~ALCIBIADES:
371 Pre |          as having occurred ‘quite lately’ is only a fiction, probably
372     | latter
373 Text|       would be full of anarchy and lawlessness?~ALCIBIADES: Decidedly.~
374 Text|       avert.’ (The author of these lines, which are probably of Pythagorean
375 Text|         SOCRATES: But how could we live in safety with so many crazy
376 Text|       while others have lost their lives. And even they who seem
377 Text|    conspired against and slain. Or look at certain of our own citizens,—
378 Text|        best attention, ‘two of us’ looking together, we may find what
379 Text|            accept the dominion and lordship of all the Hellenes and
380 Text|          thereby or immediately to lose his life. And yet we could
381 Text|       ideas in action they will be losers rather than gainers?~ALCIBIADES:
382 Text|        undergone the misfortune of losing them, and have been so little
383 Text|          off the victory over your lovers.~THE END~
384 Text|          who should meet with such luck.~SOCRATES: Yet you would
385 Text|        other day, how Archelaus of Macedonia was slain by his beloved (
386 Text|          but you are speaking of a madman: surely you do not think
387 Pre |         tis...kaka: oti pas aphron mainetai): and the writer seems to
388 Pre |       writing of Plato will not be maintained by any modern critic, and
389     | makes
390 Text|      Surely, they are not the only maladies which exist?~ALCIBIADES:
391 Text|       ALCIBIADES: But how shall we manage, Socrates?—At any rate I
392 Text|            another city, or in the management of her own affairs, all
393 Text|            thing (The Homeric word margos is said to be here employed
394 Text|           making his petition. The mass of mankind would not decline
395 Text|     flute-players and athletes and masters in other arts, and besides
396 Pre |         the Dialogue (compare opos melesei tis...kaka: oti pas aphron
397 Text|          or if they have sometimes met with misfortune, the fault
398 Text|            the words together;—the metre will suffer, but the poet’
399 Text|           human life, pilotless in mid-ocean, and the words will apply
400 Text|          that there is no third or middle term between discretion
401 Text|         highmindedness’—to use the mildest term which men apply to
402 Text|         who have desired to obtain military command: of those who have
403 Text|           I will set this crown of mine upon your head, as you have
404 Text|           to use them to a bad and mischievous end?~ALCIBIADES: I would
405 Text|           passed all their days in misery, while the parents of good
406 Text|         possible? I must have been mistaken.~SOCRATES: So it seems to
407 Text|        going should appear at this moment, and ask before you made
408 Text|         every year, and spend more money in their service than all
409 Text|  especially if the Gods are in the mood to grant whatever he may
410 Text|        distinguish between God and mortal man.’~Afterwards the means
411     | Mr
412 Text|       words are omitted in several MSS.)~SOCRATES: For you designed
413     | myself
414 Pre |         Dialogue which goes by the name of the Second Alcibiades
415 Text|            You may even find other names, if you seek for them; but
416 Text|           or to drive him from his native land, but not when it is
417 Text|          True.~SOCRATES: But is it necessary that the man who is clever
418     | nevertheless
419 Text|           averted, but called down new ones. And was not his prayer
420     | nobody
421 Text|        have had quite the contrary notion. I believe that if the God
422 Text|      person of this sort. And even now-a-days you will find many who (
423 Text|          of an army, or any of the numerous things which cause more
424 Text|        those who have gained their object, some are even to this day
425 Text|       ignorant of the best, having occasionally the whim that what is worst
426 Pre |       death of Archelaus as having occurred ‘quite lately’ is only a
427 Pre |         told, and a similar phrase occurs;—ta gar echthes kai proen
428 Text|           woes upon them.’ (Homer. Odyss.)~He must have been a wise
429 Text|           and terrors during their office, but after their return
430 Text|        persons who have prayed for offspring, and when their prayers
431 Text|         persons of your own age or older than yourself there are
432 Text|           to me). (These words are omitted in several MSS.)~SOCRATES:
433 Text|       averted, but called down new ones. And was not his prayer
434 Pre |           of the Dialogue (compare opos melesei tis...kaka: oti
435 Text|           to take advantage of the opportunity?~ALCIBIADES: Indeed, Socrates,
436 Text|            And there cannot be two opposites to one thing?~ALCIBIADES:
437 Text|        knowest that wave and storm oppress us.’~And so I count your
438 Text|            probably of Pythagorean origin, is unknown. They are found
439 Pre |          They exhibit considerable originality, and are remarkable for
440 Text|         not the poet whose words I originally quoted wiser than we are,
441     | otherwise
442 Pre |           opos melesei tis...kaka: oti pas aphron mainetai): and
443     | ours
444 Text|      Should we not long since have paid the penalty at their hands,
445 Text|           fallen into the greatest pains and sufferings. For some
446 Text|            in the Anthology (Anth. Pal.).)~In my opinion, I say,
447 Text|            have done towards their parent.~ALCIBIADES: Good words,
448 Text|          days in misery, while the parents of good children have undergone
449 Text|             like others, have your part. For you change about in
450 Text|            you utter, and make you partake of other evils as well.
451 Text|        then, for the many, if they particularly desire to do that which
452 Pre |            melesei tis...kaka: oti pas aphron mainetai): and the
453 Pre |         very un-Platonic. The best passage is probably that about the
454 Pre |           k.t.l. There are several passages which are either corrupt
455 Text|            bad, and have therefore passed all their days in misery,
456 Text|           to the physician, or the passenger depends for safety on the
457 Text|       thought of such matters, and pay so little respect to the
458 Text|            advise us about war and peace, or the building of walls
459 Pre |         and which therefore have a peculiar interest for us. The Second
460 Text|           long since have paid the penalty at their hands, and have
461 Text|          has been well said. And I perceive how many are the ills of
462 Text|           we will offer crowns and perform the other customary rites
463 Text|        good flute-player or a good performer in any other art?~ALCIBIADES:
464 Text|      saying that you were in great perplexity, lest perchance you should
465 Pre |   Archelaus is told, and a similar phrase occurs;—ta gar echthes kai
466 Pre |            in the general tone and phraseology of the Dialogue (compare
467 Text|         the sick man clings to the physician, or the passenger depends
468 Text|    according to those whom we call physicians, may require a different
469 Text|          depends for safety on the pilot. And if the soul does not
470 Text|         brief space of human life, pilotless in mid-ocean, and the words
471 Text|          evils as well. The wisest plan, therefore, seems to me
472 Pre |        Plato. They are examples of Platonic dialogues to be assigned
473 Text|   Euripides makes Creon say in the play, when he beholds Teiresias
474 Text|            unless the argument has played us false.~ALCIBIADES: But
475 Text|         the impediment, whether it pleases him to call it mist or anything
476 Text|      worship of the Lacedaemonians pleaseth me better than all the offerings
477 Text|            from the pseudo-Homeric poem, ‘Margites.’)~ALCIBIADES:
478 Text|        beloved (compare Aristotle, Pol.), whose love for the tyranny
479 Text|           of learning (Or, reading polumatheian, ‘abundant learning.’),
480 Pre |       themselves. The dialectic is poor and weak. There is no power
481 Text|            many arts, and does not possess the knowledge of the best,
482 Text|         Why, Socrates, how is that possible? I must have been mistaken.~
483 Text|            you mean? Can ignorance possibly be better than knowledge
484 Pre |          the ‘superior person’ and preaches too much, while Alcibiades
485 Pre |                                    Preface~The two dialogues [the Eryxias
486 Text|            or ‘idiotic,’ or, if we prefer gentler language, describe
487 Text|        others that they would have preferred never to have had children
488 Text|      compare Republic): ‘their own presumption,’ or folly (whichever is
489 Text|          hate the holy Ilium, Both Priam and the people of the spear-skilled
490 Text|           puffed up with political pride, but in which not one of
491 Pre |       abstract form to some of its principal doctrines.~For the translation
492 Text|  ALCIBIADES: Good words, Socrates, prithee.~SOCRATES: You ought not
493 Text|          if you so desired, should proclaim to all mankind in one and
494 Text|      thinking that thus they would procure an advantage, have nevertheless
495 Text|         not all alike, nor do they produce the same result, but each
496 Pre |         occurs;—ta gar echthes kai proen gegonota tauta, k.t.l. There
497 Text|      receive whatever else you may proffer. Euripides makes Creon say
498 Text|            whole of Europe, should promise, not only that, but, if
499 Text|        another or to take away his property or to drive him from his
500 Pre |           spirit of Plato (compare Protag; Ion; Apol.). The characters