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    Dialogue                                  grey = Comment text

  1 Craty|                                    Cratylus~
  2 Craty|                   INTRODUCTION~The Cratylus has always been a source
  3 Craty|             or the speculations of Cratylus, or some other Heracleitean
  4 Craty| surroundings of such a work as the Cratylus are taken away. Moreover,
  5 Craty|       dialogue. Does he agree with Cratylus or with Hermogenes, and
  6 Craty|          mind of the reader of the Cratylus. And the consideration of
  7 Craty|         works of Plato, but to the Cratylus and Phaedrus more than any
  8 Craty|        property of any. And in the Cratylus we have no reason to assume
  9 Craty|          Hermogenes, Socrates, and Cratylus, the three theories of language
 10 Craty|           dialogue, Hermogenes and Cratylus, are at the opposite poles
 11 Craty|          speculations of Socrates.~Cratylus is of opinion that a name
 12 Craty|       Compare Theaet.) Of the real Cratylus we know nothing, except
 13 Craty|       sound of things. In a sense, Cratylus is right in saying that
 14 Craty|           by Hermogenes, Socrates, Cratylus, may be described as the
 15 Craty|            in the vague realism of Cratylus. This misconception has
 16 Craty|           the Sophist.) And in the Cratylus he gives a general account
 17 Craty|       nothing. Even the realism of Cratylus is not based upon the ideas
 18 Craty|     follies of early logic; in the Cratylus he is ridiculing the fancies
 19 Craty|         and the etymologies of the Cratylus have also found their way
 20 Craty|          to the Heracleiteanism of Cratylus.~The theory of language
 21 Craty|         which is propounded in the Cratylus is in accordance with the
 22 Craty|            his contemporaries.~The Cratylus is full of humour and satirical
 23 Craty|            from the half-converted Cratylus the doctrine that falsehood
 24 Craty|       having wasted his time upon ‘Cratylus and the doctrines of Heracleitus’
 25 Craty|     philosophy, endeavours to show Cratylus that imitation may be partial
 26 Craty|           state of transition. But Cratylus, who does not easily apprehend
 27 Craty|        vigour; the Socrates of the Cratylus is the Socrates of the Apology
 28 Craty|           far wrong in placing the Cratylus about the middle, or at
 29 Craty|         first half, of the series.~Cratylus, the Heracleitean philosopher,
 30 Craty|        that they are conventional. Cratylus affirms that his own is
 31 Craty|    Socrates to explain to him what Cratylus means; or, far rather, he
 32 Craty|      opinion on such matters. When Cratylus denies that Hermogenes is
 33 Craty|            of speeches. ‘Well said Cratylus, then, that I am no son
 34 Craty|           should like to hear what Cratylus would say. ‘But, Socrates,
 35 Craty|    Socrates, as I was telling you, Cratylus mystifies me; I should like
 36 Craty|            names?’ To this appeal, Cratylus replies ‘that he cannot
 37 Craty|   interposes his own request, that Cratylus will give some account of
 38 Craty|            are mere sciolists, but Cratylus has reflected on these matters,
 39 Craty|     matters, and has had teachers. Cratylus replies in the words of
 40 Craty|            Homer remarks. Does not Cratylus agree with him that names
 41 Craty|        make better or worse names. Cratylus cannot admit that one name
 42 Craty|        never been a lack of liars. Cratylus presses him with the old
 43 Craty|        Suppose a person addressing Cratylus were to say, Hail, Athenian
 44 Craty|          right or false and wrong? Cratylus admits that pictures may
 45 Craty|         that there are two objects—Cratylus and the image of Cratylus;
 46 Craty|          Cratylus and the image of Cratylus; and let us imagine that
 47 Craty|         Cratyluses, and not merely Cratylus and the image of Cratylus.
 48 Craty|          Cratylus and the image of Cratylus. But an image in fact always
 49 Craty|          ridiculous would this be! Cratylus admits the truth of Socrates’
 50 Craty|              Are we to count them, Cratylus; and is correctness of names
 51 Craty|         This doctrine may be true, Cratylus, but is also very likely
 52 Craty|            I) how far Plato in the Cratylus has discovered the true
 53 Craty|       authority.~On the whole, the Cratylus seems to contain deeper
 54 Craty|                                    CRATYLUS~PERSONS OF THE DIALOGUE:
 55 Craty|    DIALOGUE: Socrates, Hermogenes, Cratylus.~HERMOGENES: Suppose that
 56 Craty|           a party to the argument?~CRATYLUS: If you please.~HERMOGENES:
 57 Craty|          Socrates, that our friend Cratylus has been arguing about names;
 58 Craty|            whether his own name of Cratylus is a true name or not, and
 59 Craty|     however, gladly assist you and Cratylus in the investigation of
 60 Craty|        over this matter, both with Cratylus and others, and cannot convince
 61 Craty|         happy to hear and learn of Cratylus, or of any one else.~SOCRATES:
 62 Craty|       light or chance persons; and Cratylus is right in saying that
 63 Craty|       there is any meaning in what Cratylus says.~SOCRATES: I should
 64 Craty|           Then I am very sure that Cratylus was quite right in saying
 65 Craty|           should like to hear what Cratylus has more to say.~HERMOGENES:
 66 Craty|            was telling you before, Cratylus mystifies me; he says that
 67 Craty|      intended or not. Tell me now, Cratylus, here in the presence of
 68 Craty|           and I will learn of you.~CRATYLUS: Well, but surely, Hermogenes,
 69 Craty|           am by no means positive, Cratylus, in the view which Hermogenes
 70 Craty|          number of your disciples.~CRATYLUS: You are right, Socrates,
 71 Craty|      yourself.~SOCRATES: Excellent Cratylus, I have long been wondering
 72 Craty|          been sufficiently proven?~CRATYLUS: Yes, Socrates, what you
 73 Craty|        given in order to instruct?~CRATYLUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And
 74 Craty|           art, and has artificers?~CRATYLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And who
 75 Craty|        SOCRATES: And who are they?~CRATYLUS: The legislators, of whom
 76 Craty|         are better and some worse?~CRATYLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: The better
 77 Craty|            worse build them worse.~CRATYLUS: True.~SOCRATES: And among
 78 Craty|        work better and some worse?~CRATYLUS: No; there I do not agree
 79 Craty|           better and others worse?~CRATYLUS: No, indeed.~SOCRATES: Or
 80 Craty|            is better than another?~CRATYLUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES:
 81 Craty|         names are rightly imposed?~CRATYLUS: Yes, if they are names
 82 Craty|            or not his name at all?~CRATYLUS: I should reply that Hermogenes
 83 Craty|          Hermogenes, if he is not.~CRATYLUS: What do you mean?~SOCRATES:
 84 Craty|       plenty of liars in all ages.~CRATYLUS: Why, Socrates, how can
 85 Craty|            be spoken but not said?~CRATYLUS: Neither spoken nor said.~
 86 Craty|          perhaps to nobody at all?~CRATYLUS: In my opinion, Socrates,
 87 Craty|           all that I want to know.~CRATYLUS: I should say that he would
 88 Craty|          SOCRATES: But let us see, Cratylus, whether we cannot find
 89 Craty|         same with the thing named?~CRATYLUS: I should.~SOCRATES: And
 90 Craty|            imitation of the thing?~CRATYLUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And
 91 Craty|        things, but in another way?~CRATYLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: I believe
 92 Craty|            they are the imitation.~CRATYLUS: They are.~SOCRATES: First
 93 Craty|           to the woman; and so on?~CRATYLUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And
 94 Craty|           of the woman to the man?~CRATYLUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And
 95 Craty|          right, or only the first?~CRATYLUS: Only the first.~SOCRATES:
 96 Craty|          to them and is like them?~CRATYLUS: That is my view.~SOCRATES:
 97 Craty|            false as well as wrong.~CRATYLUS: That may be true, Socrates,
 98 Craty|         before the sense of sight.~CRATYLUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And
 99 Craty|           all that quite possible?~CRATYLUS: I would fain agree with
100 Craty|          of them. What do you say, Cratylus?~CRATYLUS: I agree; and
101 Craty|         What do you say, Cratylus?~CRATYLUS: I agree; and think that
102 Craty|        much of them—may there not?~CRATYLUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And
103 Craty|        figure, but not a good one.~CRATYLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: In like
104 Craty|          well and others ill made.~CRATYLUS: That is true.~SOCRATES:
105 Craty|            good, or he may be bad?~CRATYLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And this
106 Craty|          is called the legislator?~CRATYLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Then like
107 Craty|       former admissions hold good?~CRATYLUS: Very true, Socrates; but
108 Craty|        view is altogether correct, Cratylus.~CRATYLUS: How so?~SOCRATES:
109 Craty|      altogether correct, Cratylus.~CRATYLUS: How so?~SOCRATES: I believe
110 Craty|      objects: one of them shall be Cratylus, and the other the image
111 Craty|         and the other the image of Cratylus; and we will suppose, further,
112 Craty|        would you say that this was Cratylus and the image of Cratylus,
113 Craty|          Cratylus and the image of Cratylus, or that there were two
114 Craty|         there were two Cratyluses?~CRATYLUS: I should say that there
115 Craty|    realities which they represent?~CRATYLUS: Yes, I see.~SOCRATES: But
116 Craty|          which were the realities.~CRATYLUS: Quite true.~SOCRATES: Then
117 Craty|          the names of the letters.~CRATYLUS: Yes, I remember.~SOCRATES:
118 Craty|        inconsistent with yourself.~CRATYLUS: I quite acknowledge, Socrates,
119 Craty|           have the proper letters.~CRATYLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And the
120 Craty|         which are like the things?~CRATYLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Enough then
121 Craty|        word: you would admit that?~CRATYLUS: There would be no use,
122 Craty|         representation of a thing?~CRATYLUS: Yes, I do.~SOCRATES: But
123 Craty|       primitive, and some derived?~CRATYLUS: Yes, I do.~SOCRATES: Then
124 Craty|         two notions do you prefer?~CRATYLUS: Representation by likeness,
125 Craty|           the picture is composed?~CRATYLUS: Impossible.~SOCRATES: No
126 Craty|     original elements are letters?~CRATYLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Let me now
127 Craty|       right or wrong in saying so?~CRATYLUS: I should say that you were
128 Craty|            softness, and the like?~CRATYLUS: There again you were right.~
129 Craty|        Eretrians called skleroter.~CRATYLUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: But
130 Craty|         significance to one of us?~CRATYLUS: Nay, surely there is a
131 Craty|            far as they are unlike?~CRATYLUS: In as far as they are like.~
132 Craty|         Are they altogether alike?~CRATYLUS: Yes; for the purpose of
133 Craty|          hardness but of softness.~CRATYLUS: Why, perhaps the letter
134 Craty|              you know what I mean.~CRATYLUS: Yes, my dear friend, and
135 Craty|            is what you are saying?~CRATYLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And if when
136 Craty|     indication given by me to you?~CRATYLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: This indication
137 Craty|            we are agreed thus far, Cratylus (for I shall assume that
138 Craty|           what is the use of them?~CRATYLUS: The use of names, Socrates,
139 Craty|           suppose you mean to say, Cratylus, that as the name is, so
140 Craty|       names will also know things.~CRATYLUS: That is precisely what
141 Craty|            other? What do you say?~CRATYLUS: I believe that to be both
142 Craty|          of enquiry and discovery.~CRATYLUS: I certainly believe that
143 Craty|          Well, but do you not see, Cratylus, that he who follows names
144 Craty|          danger of being deceived?~CRATYLUS: How so?~SOCRATES: Why clearly
145 Craty|         they signified—did he not?~CRATYLUS: True.~SOCRATES: And if
146 Craty|            not be deceived by him?~CRATYLUS: But, Socrates, am I not
147 Craty|         SOCRATES: But that, friend Cratylus, is no answer. For if he
148 Craty|            be the meaning of them?~CRATYLUS: Yes; that is assuredly
149 Craty|            the opposite of motion.~CRATYLUS: Yes, Socrates, but observe;
150 Craty|            SOCRATES: What of that, Cratylus? Are we to count them like
151 Craty|           those are the true ones?~CRATYLUS: No; that is not reasonable.~
152 Craty|         the art of the legislator?~CRATYLUS: Quite true.~SOCRATES: Tell
153 Craty|           things which they named?~CRATYLUS: They must have known, Socrates.~
154 Craty|         SOCRATES: Why, yes, friend Cratylus, they could hardly have
155 Craty|         hardly have been ignorant.~CRATYLUS: I should say not.~SOCRATES:
156 Craty|         you still of that opinion?~CRATYLUS: I am.~SOCRATES: And would
157 Craty|         the things which he named?~CRATYLUS: I should.~SOCRATES: But
158 Craty|            learn them from others.~CRATYLUS: I think that there is a
159 Craty|        they could have known them?~CRATYLUS: I believe, Socrates, the
160 Craty|          motion? Were we mistaken?~CRATYLUS: But I suppose one of the
161 Craty|       determined by counting them.~CRATYLUS: No; not in that way, Socrates.~
162 Craty|         shows the truth of things.~CRATYLUS: I agree.~SOCRATES: But
163 Craty|     SOCRATES: But if that is true, Cratylus, then I suppose that things
164 Craty|            be known without names?~CRATYLUS: Clearly.~SOCRATES: But
165 Craty|           and different from them.~CRATYLUS: What you are saying is,
166 Craty|            things which they name?~CRATYLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Let us suppose
167 Craty|           have been duly executed?~CRATYLUS: I should say that we must
168 Craty|        investigated in themselves.~CRATYLUS: Clearly, Socrates.~SOCRATES:
169 Craty|          There is a matter, master Cratylus, about which I often dream,
170 Craty|          other absolute existence?~CRATYLUS: Certainly, Socrates, I
171 Craty|           is not always beautiful.~CRATYLUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And
172 Craty|         the word is in our mouths?~CRATYLUS: Undoubtedly.~SOCRATES:
173 Craty|          never change or be moved.~CRATYLUS: Certainly they cannot.~
174 Craty|           that which has no state.~CRATYLUS: True.~SOCRATES: Nor can
175 Craty|         Nor can we reasonably say, Cratylus, that there is knowledge
176 Craty|            nose. This may be true, Cratylus, but is also very likely
177 Craty|           truth, come and tell me.~CRATYLUS: I will do as you say, though
178 Craty|         shall set you on your way.~CRATYLUS: Very good, Socrates; I