Dialogue

  1 Craty|         and realism.~We can hardly say that Plato was aware of
  2 Craty|            of language; that is to say, he supposes words to be
  3 Craty|        which, as some philosophers say, is the way to have a pure
  4 Craty|            about words, truth will say “too late” to us as to the
  5 Craty|          original one.~You mean to say, for instance, rejoins Socrates,
  6 Craty|     reality. Nor is he disposed to say with Euthydemus, that all
  7 Craty|            from Homer. Does he not say that Hector’s son had two
  8 Craty|             which, as philosophers say, is the way to have a pure
  9 Craty|           mind’ of Anaxagoras, and say that psuche, quasi phuseche =
 10 Craty|            propitiate them, as men say in prayers, ‘May he graciously
 11 Craty|            as the lovers of motion say, preserves all things, and
 12 Craty|         laugh at such notions, and say with Anaxagoras, that justice
 13 Craty|         that I am inventing, but I say that if kakia is right,
 14 Craty|           ourselves, but I mean to say that this was the way in
 15 Craty|          to a Deus ex machina, and say that God gave the first
 16 Craty|           hear what Cratylus would say. ‘But, Socrates, as I was
 17 Craty|        addressing Cratylus were to say, Hail, Athenian Stranger,
 18 Craty|           true or false? ‘I should say that they would be mere
 19 Craty|          he may go up to a man and say ‘this is year picture,’
 20 Craty|           and again, he may go and say to him ‘this is your name’—
 21 Craty|         that Truth herself may not say to us, ‘Too late.’ And,
 22 Craty|         the body, or rather we may say that the nobler use of language
 23 Craty|         and sounds. ‘The Eretrians say sklerotes for skleroter;’ ‘
 24 Craty|          of a wild beast, shall we say?), he first, they following
 25 Craty|          the other arts, we cannot say: Only we seem to see that
 26 Craty|       before the flood, that is to say, the world of ten, twenty,
 27 Craty|      generated out of pronouns. To say that ‘pronouns, like ripe
 28 Craty|            this sense we may truly say that we are not conscious
 29 Craty|            it is no longer true to say that a particular sound
 30 Craty|         with exceptions. We do not say that we know how sense became
 31 Craty|           that often we can hardly say that there is a right or
 32 Craty|            by accident, that is to say, by principles which are
 33 Craty|            fun of you;—he means to say that you are no true son
 34 Craty|         one else.~SOCRATES: I dare say that you may be right, Hermogenes:
 35 Craty|           horse a man, you mean to say that a man will be rightly
 36 Craty|         whole.~SOCRATES: Would you say the large parts and not
 37 Craty|         part?~HERMOGENES: I should say that every part is true.~
 38 Craty|            and a true part, as you say.~HERMOGENES: Yes.~SOCRATES:
 39 Craty|            SOCRATES: But would you say, Hermogenes, that the things
 40 Craty|       agree with him, or would you say that things have a permanent
 41 Craty|            will you be disposed to say with Euthydemus, that all
 42 Craty|          all.~HERMOGENES: I should say that the natural way is
 43 Craty|         name?~HERMOGENES: I cannot say.~SOCRATES: Do we not give
 44 Craty|      SOCRATES: Cannot you at least say who gives us the names which
 45 Craty|         them?~HERMOGENES: I should say, he who is to use them,
 46 Craty|         Then, Hermogenes, I should say that this giving of names
 47 Craty|   HERMOGENES: And where does Homer say anything about names, and
 48 Craty|            names, and what does he say?~SOCRATES: He often speaks
 49 Craty|           you will remember I dare say the lines to which I refer? (
 50 Craty|        names?~HERMOGENES: I should say the wise, of course.~SOCRATES:
 51 Craty|        wiser?~HERMOGENES: I should say, the men.~SOCRATES: And
 52 Craty|        same meaning. Would you not say so?~HERMOGENES: Yes.~SOCRATES:
 53 Craty|             Now he and other poets say truly, that when a good
 54 Craty|           signifying wisdom. And I say too, that every wise man
 55 Craty|      succeed.~SOCRATES: That is to say, you trust to the inspiration
 56 Craty|          mean?~SOCRATES: I mean to say that the word ‘man’ implies
 57 Craty|          Yes.~SOCRATES: If I am to say what occurs to me at the
 58 Craty|           explanation. What do you say to another?~HERMOGENES:
 59 Craty|      HERMOGENES: But what shall we say of the next word?~SOCRATES:
 60 Craty|   permutation is allowed. For some say that the body is the grave (
 61 Craty|            and the next best is to say, as in prayers, that we
 62 Craty|            would like to do as you say.~SOCRATES: Shall we begin,
 63 Craty|             and had a good deal to say.~HERMOGENES: Well, and what
 64 Craty|      already discussed. But I dare say that I am talking great
 65 Craty|         Heracleitus is supposed to say that all things are in motion
 66 Craty|           is something in what you say, Socrates; but I do not
 67 Craty|          deal of truth in what you say.~SOCRATES: Yes, Hermogenes,
 68 Craty|          Very good; and what do we say of Demeter, and Here, and
 69 Craty|          sure I have, and what you say is true.~SOCRATES: But the
 70 Craty|         the explanation.~SOCRATES: Say rather an harmonious name,
 71 Craty|   HERMOGENES: Yes; but what do you say of the other name?~SOCRATES:
 72 Craty|        noesis), as though he would say: This is she who has the
 73 Craty|        HERMOGENES: But what do you say of Hephaestus?~SOCRATES:
 74 Craty|             HERMOGENES: Why do you say so?~SOCRATES: The two words
 75 Craty|            disciples of Anaxagoras say truly. For the sun in his
 76 Craty|          Socrates. But what do you say of the month and the stars?~
 77 Craty|            HERMOGENES: What do you say of pur (fire) and udor (
 78 Craty|          avoided; for something to say about them may easily be
 79 Craty|          mere receptacle; and they say that there is a penetrating
 80 Craty|        Well, my excellent friend,’ say I, ‘but if all this be true,
 81 Craty|            mind, for mind, as they say, has absolute power, and
 82 Craty|        HERMOGENES: But what do you say of kalon?~SOCRATES: That
 83 Craty|        HERMOGENES: And what do you say of their opposites?~SOCRATES:
 84 Craty|          me of what I was going to say to you, that the fine fashionable
 85 Craty|            HERMOGENES: What do you say of edone (pleasure), lupe (
 86 Craty|      suppose that some one were to say to you, what is the word
 87 Craty|     fitness.~SOCRATES: You mean to say, how should I answer him?~
 88 Craty|             What way?~SOCRATES: To say that names which we do not
 89 Craty|           true, then I shall again say to you, come and help me,
 90 Craty|           carried away— meaning to say that this was the way in
 91 Craty|            present enquiry, let us say to ourselves, before we
 92 Craty|          the circumstances, as men say, we must do as well as we
 93 Craty|       older than we are; or we may say that antiquity has cast
 94 Craty|          what Cratylus has more to say.~HERMOGENES: But, Socrates,
 95 Craty|       therefore do not hesitate to say what you think, which if
 96 Craty|       already find myself moved to say to you what Achilles in
 97 Craty|            Yes, Socrates, what you say, as I am disposed to think,
 98 Craty|        SOCRATES: Well, what do you say to the name of our friend
 99 Craty|            Hermes in him, shall we say that this is a wrong name,
100 Craty|            Socrates, how can a man say that which is not?—say something
101 Craty|         man say that which is not?—say something and yet say nothing?
102 Craty|         not?—say something and yet say nothing? For is not falsehood
103 Craty|         were to take your hand and say: ‘Hail, Athenian stranger,
104 Craty|           know.~CRATYLUS: I should say that he would be putting
105 Craty|            SOCRATES: And you would say that pictures are also imitations
106 Craty|          understand you. Please to say, then, whether both sorts
107 Craty|        first.~SOCRATES: That is to say, the mode of assignment
108 Craty|          May I not go to a man and say to him, ‘This is your picture,’
109 Craty|    likeness of a woman; and when I say ‘show,’ I mean bring before
110 Craty|           not go to him again, and say, ‘This is your name’?— for
111 Craty|            an imitation. May I not say to him— ‘This is your name’?
112 Craty|       imitation of himself, when I say, ‘This is a man’; or of
113 Craty|          the human species, when I say, ‘This is a woman,’ as the
114 Craty|          Socrates; and therefore I say, Granted.~SOCRATES: That
115 Craty|            up of them. What do you say, Cratylus?~CRATYLUS: I agree;
116 Craty|            and think that what you say is very true.~SOCRATES:
117 Craty|            I believe that what you say may be true about numbers,
118 Craty|           under an image. I should say rather that the image, if
119 Craty|            another form; would you say that this was Cratylus and
120 Craty|     Cratyluses?~CRATYLUS: I should say that there were two Cratyluses.~
121 Craty|           or syllables; for if you say both, you will be inconsistent
122 Craty|    acknowledge, Socrates, what you say to be very reasonable.~SOCRATES:
123 Craty|            and of many others, who say that names are conventional,
124 Craty|       great small—that, they would say, makes no difference, if
125 Craty|      saying so?~CRATYLUS: I should say that you were right.~SOCRATES:
126 Craty|          SOCRATES: And what do you say of the insertion of the
127 Craty| intelligible to both of us; when I say skleros (hard), you know
128 Craty|            so much, still you must say that the signification of
129 Craty|    SOCRATES: I suppose you mean to say, Cratylus, that as the name
130 Craty|            and therefore you would say that he who knows names
131 Craty|       there any other? What do you say?~CRATYLUS: I believe that
132 Craty|            the majority? Are we to say of whichever sort there
133 Craty|       ignorant.~CRATYLUS: I should say not.~SOCRATES: Let us return
134 Craty|            SOCRATES: And would you say that the giver of the first
135 Craty|            a good deal in what you say, Socrates.~SOCRATES: But
136 Craty|       executed?~CRATYLUS: I should say that we must learn of the
137 Craty|    SOCRATES: Nor can we reasonably say, Cratylus, that there is
138 Craty|          followers and many others say, is a question hard to determine;
139 Craty|         CRATYLUS: I will do as you say, though I can assure you,