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501 Text |           cypress wood and marble of Pentelicus are eagerly bought by numerous
502 Text |              at once strikes them as perfectly true. And probably the audience
503 Pre  |              about prayer which have perplexed Christian theologians were
504 Text |              to have all the King of Persia’s wealth and to be ill.
505 Text |              submit to our rule. The petty injuries which we at present
506 Text |           circumstanced in regard to philosophy. Had Prodicus been present
507 Pre  |     Archelaus is told, and a similar phrase occurs;—ta gar echthes kai
508 Pre  |              in the general tone and phraseology of the Dialogue (compare
509 Text |               SOCRATES: And so, too, physic is not useful to every one,
510 Text |         prudent pilot or the skilful physician, or the artist of any kind
511 Text |         stater is tied up in a small piece of leather: what it is,
512 Text |       purchasers? Surely the prudent pilot or the skilful physician,
513 Text |             The matter will be still plainer if we look at it in this
514 Pre  |          Plato. They are examples of Platonic dialogues to be assigned
515 Text |            and intend, I suspect, to play us some trick.—While we
516 Text |           game of draughts which the player can move in such a way that
517 Text |             meat and drink and other pleasant things, but he cannot owing
518 Text |           given you the same kind of pleasure which you might have derived
519 Text |            need and desire of bodily pleasures?~CRITIAS: True.~SOCRATES:
520 Pre  |           poets:—the remark that the poet, who is of a reserved disposition,
521 Pre  |              probably that about the poets:—the remark that the poet,
522 Text |             go by, and Erasistratus, pointing to one of them, said to
523 Intro|            Plato.~Yet there are some points in the argument which are
524 Text |             of money (compare Arist. Pol.); and this, I imagine,
525 Text |            wealthier,—he who was the possessor of a talent of silver or
526 Text |         SOCRATES: And do we think it possible that a thing should be useful
527 Intro|                5) The distinction of post hoc and propter hoc, often
528 Intro|           Charmides from the army at Potidaea), the figure of the game
529 Text |        should not be wealthy, if his poverty prevents the accomplishment
530 Intro|  INTRODUCTION~Much cannot be said in praise of the style or conception
531 Text |              that he could obtain by praying to the Gods the knowledge
532 Pre  |            the ‘superior person’ and preaches too much, while Alcibiades
533 Pre  |                                      PREFACE~The two dialogues which
534 Text |              never choose the one in preference to the other.~ERASISTRATUS:
535 Text |              could find some one who preferred such a house to the wisdom
536 Text |          other to an agreement, I am prepared, as far as my capacity admits,
537 Text |           was speaking, Prodicus was preparing to retaliate upon his youthful
538 Text |          have begun your argument so prettily, do you not go on with the
539 Text |           did not do what I could to prevent your difference. And I should
540 Text |              wealthy, if his poverty prevents the accomplishment of his
541 Text |        knowledge where there has not previously been ignorance, nor health
542 Pre  |         abstract form to some of its principal doctrines.~For the translation
543 Intro|             form of one of the great principles of modern political economy,
544 Text |           and feared that they would proceed to abuse and quarrelling:
545 Text |        another time not, in the same process.~CRITIAS: But in that respect
546 Text |            require the same thing to produce the same result, then it
547 Text |             is able also to sell the product of his art, if he so desire.~
548 Pre  |           occurs;—ta gar echthes kai proen gegonota tauta, k.t.l. There
549 Text |           men by the arts which they profess, and in exchange for them,
550 Text |            artist of any kind who is proficient in his art, is more worth
551 Text |            therefore will alone have profit from these things, supposing
552 Text |            weight.~SOCRATES: I am in profound earnest, I assure you. But
553 Text |              he might dispose of his property and obtain in exchange what
554 Intro|          distinction of post hoc and propter hoc, often lost sight of
555 Pre  |             spirit of Plato (compare Protag; Ion; Apol.). The characters
556 Text |             him as (according to the proverb) it is to boil a stone,
557 Text |          beams and stones which they provided, and again the instruments
558 Text |      numerous purchasers? Surely the prudent pilot or the skilful physician,
559 Text |              who can advise well and prudently for himself and others is
560 Text |           eagerly bought by numerous purchasers? Surely the prudent pilot
561 Text |            if not all things? Let us pursue the argument in another
562 Text |            please? And they are of a quality, too, finer than any other
563 Pre  |           and two somewhat hackneyed quotations (Symp., Gorg.) recur. The
564 Text |      audience would have thought him raving, and he would have been
565 Text |              a good or an evil. I am ready to assist you in the enquiry
566 Text |            things, does not the same reasoning apply to the case of any
567 Text |         looked askance, as if he had received some unfair treatment, and
568 Text |         derived from some rhapsode’s recitation of Homer; for you do not
569 Pre  |            quotations (Symp., Gorg.) recur. The reference to the death
570 Pre  |             Symp., Gorg.) recur. The reference to the death of Archelaus
571 Intro|             infinity is a subtle and refined thought. (3) That wealth
572 Text |           hear any one else named.~I reflected that we were speaking, not
573 Text |           the intemperate man should refrain from meat and drink and
574 Text |      Republic.) And perhaps, too, as regards riches you are of opinion
575 Text |          same time teach me all that relates to grammar or music, and
576 Text |              think that they have no relation to facts, but are like the
577 Intro|          thought. (3) That wealth is relative to circumstances is a sound
578 Text |           Critias still showed great reluctance to accept any argument which
579 Text |            and an evil to others. It remains to enquire what constitutes
580 Pre  |            that about the poets:—the remark that the poet, who is of
581 Pre  |    considerable originality, and are remarkable for containing several thoughts
582 Text |              SOCRATES: If I can only remember it, I will. The youth began
583 Text |             by weight which has been rendered useless: and he who has
584 Text |          more than Prodicus.~Can you repeat the discourse to us? Said
585 Text |          whether they can yield your request, it is as though you went
586 Text |             say more than that if we require the same thing to produce
587 Text |             conditions which are not required for the existence of a thing
588 Pre  |           that the poet, who is of a reserved disposition, is uncommonly
589 Intro|              ancient writer. (2) The resolution of wealth into its simplest
590 Text |              is that we should argue respecting the honest and dishonest
591 Text |              you, who agree in other respects, fall to disputing about
592 Text |            do you not go on with the rest? There is still something
593 Text |           have none, suppose that we restate the question thus:—If a
594 Text |             order to accomplish some results bad things are needed, and
595 Text |            Prodicus was preparing to retaliate upon his youthful assailant,
596 Text |             contrary opinion.~And I, retorted Critias, should say that
597 Intro|          imitations of Plato:—Phaeax returning from an expedition to Sicily (
598 Text |         might have derived from some rhapsode’s recitation of Homer; for
599 Pre  |     difficult to understand, and the ridiculous interpretation of Homer,
600 Text |             his opponents are in the right. There would be nothing
601 Intro|            also in many passages the ring of sophistry. On the other
602 Text |             thought that he had been robbed of a great possession when
603 Text |            same principle he who had robes and bedding and such things
604 Pre  |            being, among all Greek or Roman writings, the one which
605 Text |             will never submit to our rule. The petty injuries which
606 Text |             which a man does for the sake of virtue?~CRITIAS: Yes.~
607 Text |               Erasistratus, Critias.~SCENE: The portico of a temple
608 Intro|    conception. (4) That the arts and sciences which receive payment are
609 Text |             for a house, nor would a Scythian set so much store on the
610 Text |              knows but the makers. A seal is next set upon the leather,
611 Text |             came in, and, taking his seat, began to laugh and jeer
612 Pre  |            indebted to my friend and secretary, Mr. Knight.~That the Dialogue
613 Text |         CRITIAS: True.~SOCRATES: And seeing that a man is best off when
614 Text |             perhaps find what we are seeking. What is the use of wealth,
615 Text |            cold and the other bodily sensations were unperceived by us,
616 Text |       intractable. And now they have sent ambassadors to Athens, and
617 Text |            bad actions may sometimes serve good purposes? The matter
618 Text |              we did not want for the service of the body the things of
619 Text |             s instead of living in a shabby little cottage, whereas
620 Intro|         conceptions and distinctions show considerable power of thought
621 Text |            for virtue.~Critias still showed great reluctance to accept
622 Pre  |            us. The Second Alcibiades shows that the difficulties about
623 Text |               if you were to ask any Sicilian whom he thought to be the
624 Text |               again, should you call sickness a good or an evil?~ERYXIAS:
625 Intro|              propter hoc, often lost sight of in modern as well as
626 Intro|        resolution of wealth into its simplest implements going on to infinity
627 Text |             you would consider him a simpleton who supposed that he could
628 Text |             you please, let us first sit down; for I am tired with
629 Text |         Something which is about the size of a stater is tied up in
630 Text |             the prudent pilot or the skilful physician, or the artist
631 Text |          which go to make up wealth, slaves and horses innumerable,
632 Text |          those who have none or very slight ones?~CRITIAS: Certainly
633 Text |              would be no use in this so-called wealth, if no one, that
634 Text |      capacity admits, to help you in solving the question. Please, therefore,
635 Pre  |         clumsily introduced, and two somewhat hackneyed quotations (Symp.,
636 Text |           Prodicus; they think him a Sophist and a braggart, and regard
637 Intro|            many passages the ring of sophistry. On the other hand, the
638 Intro|       relative to circumstances is a sound conception. (4) That the
639 Text |           that if you were forced to speak the truth, you would declare
640 Text |              to the character of the speaker.~But truly, Socrates, said
641 Text |              animals, but there is a special kind of animal which we
642 Text |         intercourse with one another speech and violence (?) and various
643 Text |             wealth and is willing to spend it, he will carry out his
644 Pre  |           Homer, are entirely in the spirit of Plato (compare Protag;
645 Pre  |              good example of a short spurious work, which may be attributed
646 Text |           confer wealth; just as the standard of morals varies, and what
647 Text |         which is about the size of a stater is tied up in a small piece
648 Text |          fire we could make a brazen statue, we should not want fire
649 Text |              chance that Eryxias the Steirian was walking with me in the
650 Pre  |   heavy-in-hand. There are traces of Stoic influence in the general
651 Pre  |            by the Gorgias, where the story of Archelaus is told, and
652 Text |               There would be nothing strange in this; it would be as
653 Text |            by the honest man at once strikes them as perfectly true.
654 Pre  |              anticipates in the most striking manner the modern science
655 Text |             to be put down by a mere stripling before all those present:—(
656 Text |            not wealth. But I am very strongly of opinion that things which
657 Text |             probably have got up and struck him. For he thought that
658 Intro|               like the exercise of a student, it is full of small imitations
659 Text |        although you had never made a study of the art, to give you
660 Pre  |            much, while Alcibiades is stupid and heavy-in-hand. There
661 Text |         great expedition, will never submit to our rule. The petty injuries
662 Intro|            going on to infinity is a subtle and refined thought. (3)
663 Pre  |             only a fiction, probably suggested by the Gorgias, where the
664 Text |           than that he should have a superabundance of means? For thus he will
665 Pre  |     ill-drawn. Socrates assumes the ‘superior person’ and preaches too
666 Text |          these things are useful for supplying the needs of the body, we
667 Text |             do this, and each of you supposes that you can bring the other
668 Text |              SOCRATES: Yet I dare be sworn that Critias will not be
669 Pre  |       somewhat hackneyed quotations (Symp., Gorg.) recur. The reference
670 Pre  |          Laws). An incident from the Symposium is rather clumsily introduced,
671 Text |           While we were talking, the Syracusan envoys chanced to go by,
672 Text |            And in a similar way, the Syracusans, unless we set to work in
673 Pre  |              proen gegonota tauta, k.t.l. There are several passages
674 Pre  |             a similar phrase occurs;—ta gar echthes kai proen gegonota
675 Text |           the argument was likely to take, and did not wish to be
676      | taking
677 Text |           who was the possessor of a talent of silver or he who had
678 Text |           And when at last a certain talkative young gentleman came in,
679 Pre  |           echthes kai proen gegonota tauta, k.t.l. There are several
680 Text |          useless to him, if some one teaches him that art, he makes him
681 Text |              to leave because he was teaching the youths doctrines which
682 Text |              SCENE: The portico of a temple of Zeus.~It happened by
683 Text |             courts, if two witnesses testify to the same fact, one of
684 Text |           and the other a rogue, the testimony of the rogue often has the
685 Pre  |             have perplexed Christian theologians were not unknown among the
686      | thereby
687 Text |          will ask Eryxias whether he thinks that there are just and
688 Text |            suffer neither hunger nor thirst, would he want either money
689 Text |           Perhaps in this way we may throw some light on the question.
690 Text |              the size of a stater is tied up in a small piece of leather:
691 Text |             first sit down; for I am tired with my yesterday’s journey
692 Pre  |       Dialogue (compare opos melesei tis...kaka: oti pas aphron mainetai):
693 Pre  |             influence in the general tone and phraseology of the Dialogue (
694 Text |          laugh and jeer at Prodicus, tormenting him and demanding an explanation
695 Text |           that the former discussion touched the point at issue, tell
696 Intro|           the notion of wealth, also touches a question of modern political
697 Pre  |             heavy-in-hand. There are traces of Stoic influence in the
698 Pre  |              two dialogues which are translated in the second appendix are
699 Pre  |         principal doctrines.~For the translation of these two dialogues I
700 Text |             suspect, to play us some trick.—While we were talking,
701 Text |             we were speaking, not of trivial matters, but about wealth
702 Text |          small argument considerably troubled him.~SOCRATES: And what
703 Text |        character of the speaker.~But truly, Socrates, said Erasistratus,
704 Pre  |          conversation, which is very un-Platonic. The best passage is probably
705 Text |           way that his opponents are unable to make any countermove. (
706 Pre  |             reserved disposition, is uncommonly difficult to understand,
707      | under
708 Text |           cannot possibly come to an understanding as to whether it is a good
709 Text |              and what should be left undone;—these behave the most wisely
710 Text |              if he had received some unfair treatment, and said, I believe,
711 Intro|           the other hand, the rather unhandsome treatment which is exhibited
712 Text |              that there are just and unjust men?~ERYXIAS: Most decidedly.~
713      | unlike
714 Text |             annoyance they are quite unmanageable; you must destroy their
715 Text |         other bodily sensations were unperceived by us, there would be no
716 Text |          youths doctrines which were unsuited to them, and therefore bad
717 Intro|         Prodicus is quite unlike the urbanity of Plato.~Yet there are
718 Text |              to years of discretion, urge them to consider how wealth
719 Text |           about a thing of which the usefulness continues during the whole
720 Text |              false, which enable the user of them to prove that the
721 Text |            you in the enquiry to the utmost of my power: but first let
722 Text |             them enough to make them utterly intractable. And now they
723 Text |           supposed that he offered a vain prayer to the Gods. But
724 Text |            as the standard of morals varies, and what is honourable
725 Text |         about wealth. I observed his vexation, and feared that they would
726 Text |            the latter could gain the victory over the former.~Eryxias
727 Text |          with one another speech and violence (?) and various other things?
728 Text |             Eryxias the Steirian was walking with me in the Portico of
729 Text |             the wisdom of Nestor and wanted the necessaries of life,
730 Text |             mind, they are very like wasps: so long as you only cause
731 Pre  |            The dialectic is poor and weak. There is no power over
732 Text |              that the wisest are the wealthiest. But now there seems no
733      | whenever
734 Text |          begging, because he had not wherewithal to live?~I thought that
735 Text |          Critias will not be moved a whit by the argument.~CRITIAS:
736 Text |        merely whether it is black or white, light or heavy, but whether
737      | whole
738 Text |            by word of mouth if he is wholly deprived of the sense of
739 Text |            to be, and really is, the wickedest of all the Sicilians and
740 Text |           who bribes his neighbour’s wife and commits adultery with
741 Text |         wicked man has wealth and is willing to spend it, he will carry
742 Text |        undone;—these behave the most wisely and make the fewest mistakes?~
743 Text |           although you claimed to be wiser about things of real importance,
744 Text |            in the law courts, if two witnesses testify to the same fact,
745 Text |             buyers, although cypress wood and marble of Pentelicus
746 Text | Carthaginians value leather which is worthless to us, or the Lacedaemonians
747 Pre  |              Alcibiades is a genuine writing of Plato will not be maintained
748 Text |               as they think, come to years of discretion, urge them
749 Text |            know not whether they can yield your request, it is as though
750 Text |             last a certain talkative young gentleman came in, and,
751 Text |      preparing to retaliate upon his youthful assailant, intending to
752 Text |          because he was teaching the youths doctrines which were unsuited