Dialogue

  1 Euthyd|         learn.’ ‘And do they learn,’ said Euthydemus, ‘what they know
  2 Euthyd|            ready to answer what they said a year ago, but is ‘non-plussed’
  3 Euthyd|             to others and of what is said to them, and never at a
  4 Euthyd|              a long time; and then I said to Cleinias: Here are two
  5 Euthyd|         laughed; and then Euthydemus said: Those, Socrates, are matters
  6 Euthyd|     secondary occupations.~Indeed, I said, if such occupations are
  7 Euthyd|              than any man.~My God! I said, and where did you learn
  8 Euthyd|             But I can promise you, I said, that every unvirtuous person
  9 Euthyd|           here are several others, I said, pointing to the lovers
 10 Euthyd|          power of his wisdom. Then I said: O Euthydemus and Dionysodorus,
 11 Euthyd|             it?~Certainly, Socrates, said Dionysodorus; our art will
 12 Euthyd|             brother, Dionysodorus, I said, of all men who are now
 13 Euthyd|            that he was disconcerted, said: Take courage, Cleinias,
 14 Euthyd|     questions.~Whichever he answers, said Dionysodorus, leaning forward
 15 Euthyd|            you were learning?~No, he said.~And were you wise then?~
 16 Euthyd|            wise then?~No, indeed, he said.~But if you were not wise
 17 Euthyd|       cleverly took him in hand, and said: Yes, Cleinias; and when
 18 Euthyd|             expert dancer. Do those, said he, who learn, learn what
 19 Euthyd|           same sort.~Good heavens, I said; and your last question
 20 Euthyd|      inevitable.~I see the reason, I said, why you are in such reputation
 21 Euthyd|           was admitted by him.~Then, said the other, you do not learn
 22 Euthyd|            know letters learns?~Nay, said Cleinias; but I do learn.~
 23 Euthyd|      Cleinias; but I do learn.~Then, said he, you learn what you know,
 24 Euthyd|              admitted that.~Then, he said, you were wrong in your
 25 Euthyd|              the youth. Cleinias, he said, Euthydemus is deceiving
 26 Euthyd|           agreed.~Then, Cleinias, he said, those who do not know learn,
 27 Euthyd|            should be disheartened, I said to him consolingly: You
 28 Euthyd|          happiness?~There is no one, said Cleinias, who does not.~
 29 Euthyd|              does not.~Well, then, I said, since we all of us desire
 30 Euthyd|             is a good.~Certainly, he said.~And are not health and
 31 Euthyd|             other goods are there? I said. What do you say of temperance,
 32 Euthyd|             you say?~They are goods, said Cleinias.~Very well, I said;
 33 Euthyd|          said Cleinias.~Very well, I said; and where in the company
 34 Euthyd|          Among the goods.~And now, I said, think whether we have left
 35 Euthyd|              not think that we have, said Cleinias.~Upon recollection,
 36 Euthyd|       Cleinias.~Upon recollection, I said, indeed I am afraid that
 37 Euthyd|          greatest of goods.~True, he said.~On second thoughts, I added,
 38 Euthyd|            observing his surprise, I said to him: Do you not know,
 39 Euthyd|             A wise one.~You think, I said, that to act with a wise
 40 Euthyd|            question. You remember, I said, our making the admission
 41 Euthyd|              If they profited us, he said.~And would they profit us,
 42 Euthyd|          profited?~Certainly not, he said.~Or would an artisan, who
 43 Euthyd|            worked?~Certainly not, he said.~And if a person had wealth
 44 Euthyd|            indeed, Socrates.~Then, I said, a man who would be happy
 45 Euthyd|       rightly.~That is quite true, I said. And the wrong use of a
 46 Euthyd|          carpenter?~Nothing else, he said.~And surely, in the manufacture
 47 Euthyd|             assented.~And tell me, I said, O tell me, what do possessions
 48 Euthyd|             miserable?~Certainly, he said.~And who would do least—
 49 Euthyd|      mutually allowed by us.~Then, I said, Cleinias, the sum of the
 50 Euthyd|              result of what has been said? Is not this the result—
 51 Euthyd|          consider a further point, I said: Seeing that all men desire
 52 Euthyd|              wise as he can?~Yes, he said.~And when a man thinks that
 53 Euthyd|              wisdom. Do you agree? I said.~Yes, he said, I quite agree,
 54 Euthyd|           you agree? I said.~Yes, he said, I quite agree, and think
 55 Euthyd|           that you are right.~Yes, I said, Cleinias, if only wisdom
 56 Euthyd|             wisdom can be taught, he said.~Best of men, I said, I
 57 Euthyd|              he said.~Best of men, I said, I am delighted to hear
 58 Euthyd|              Certainly, Socrates, he said; I will do my best.~I was
 59 Euthyd|      Dionysodorus and Euthydemus and said: That is an example, clumsy
 60 Euthyd|   exhortation to virtue.~Tell me, he said, Socrates and the rest of
 61 Euthyd|       profound earnest. Dionysodorus said:~Reflect, Socrates; you
 62 Euthyd|           words.~I have reflected, I said; and I shall never deny
 63 Euthyd|           never deny my words.~Well, said he, and so you say that
 64 Euthyd|              he is.~You wish him, he said, to become wise and not,
 65 Euthyd|              a lover well might) and said: Stranger of Thurii—if politeness
 66 Euthyd|         possible to tell a lie?~Yes, said Ctesippus; I should be mad
 67 Euthyd|            tells, and no other?~Yes, said Ctesippus.~And that is a
 68 Euthyd|             no lie.~Yes, Euthydemus, said Ctesippus; but in saying
 69 Euthyd|             is nowhere?~I think not, said Ctesippus.~Well, but do
 70 Euthyd|        assembly, do nothing?~Nay, he said, they do something.~And
 71 Euthyd|            what is.~Yes, Euthydemus, said Ctesippus; but he speaks
 72 Euthyd|          really are.~Why, Ctesippus, said Dionysodorus, do you mean
 73 Euthyd|          things as they are?~Yes, he said—all gentlemen and truth-speaking
 74 Euthyd|            they are?~Yes, indeed, he said; and they speak evil of
 75 Euthyd|            warm?~To be sure they do, said Ctesippus; and they speak
 76 Euthyd|              are abusive, Ctesippus, said Dionysodorus, you are abusive!~
 77 Euthyd|             made a joke with him and said: O Ctesippus, I think that
 78 Euthyd|           know this—at any rate they said just now that this was the
 79 Euthyd|              make me good.~Ctesippus said: And I, Socrates, am ready
 80 Euthyd|     different things.~Contradiction! said Dionysodorus; why, there
 81 Euthyd|           will never prove to me, he said, that you have heard any
 82 Euthyd|  contradicting any one else.~Indeed, said Ctesippus; then now you
 83 Euthyd|             that good?~Certainly, he said.~Well, have not all things
 84 Euthyd|              what does that signify? said Ctesippus; you and I may
 85 Euthyd|              contradict one another, said Dionysodorus, when both
 86 Euthyd|             and I in my astonishment said: What do you mean, Dionysodorus?
 87 Euthyd|           falsely?~No, he cannot, he said.~Then there is no such thing
 88 Euthyd|             as false opinion?~No, he said.~Then there is no such thing
 89 Euthyd|       mistake of fact?~Certainly, he said.~And that is impossible?~
 90 Euthyd|              ignorant?~Refute me, he said.~But how can I refute you,
 91 Euthyd|            is impossible?~Very true, said Euthydemus.~Neither did
 92 Euthyd|           you just now to refute me, said Dionysodorus; for how can
 93 Euthyd|              is not?~O Euthydemus, I said, I have but a dull conception
 94 Euthyd|               he replied.~And now, I said, I will ask my stupid question:
 95 Euthyd|              you bring up now what I said at first—and if I had said
 96 Euthyd|           said at first—and if I had said anything last year, I suppose
 97 Euthyd|            have just uttered?~Why, I said, they are not easy to answer;
 98 Euthyd|          before you, Dionysodorus? I said.~Answer, said he.~And is
 99 Euthyd|        Dionysodorus? I said.~Answer, said he.~And is that fair?~Yes,
100 Euthyd|            fair?~Yes, quite fair, he said.~Upon what principle? I
101 Euthyd|               Upon what principle? I said. I can only suppose that
102 Euthyd|             ought not.~You prate, he said, instead of answering. But
103 Euthyd|          more than of old.~Ctesippus said: Men of Chios, Thurii, or
104 Euthyd|             to soothe Ctesippus, and said to him: To you, Ctesippus,
105 Euthyd|      Ctesippus, I must repeat what I said before to Cleinias—that
106 Euthyd|            serious. You, Cleinias, I said, shall remind me at what
107 Euthyd|    acquisition of knowledge?~Yes, he said.~And what knowledge ought
108 Euthyd|            do us good?~Certainly, he said.~And should we be any the
109 Euthyd|         earth?~Perhaps we should, he said.~But have we not already
110 Euthyd|             we not already proved, I said, that we should be none
111 Euthyd|               Do you not remember? I said.~I quite remember, he said.~
112 Euthyd|           said.~I quite remember, he said.~Nor would any other knowledge,
113 Euthyd|         agreed.~Then, my dear boy, I said, the knowledge which we
114 Euthyd|              well as makes?~True, he said.~And our desire is not to
115 Euthyd|             assented.~But suppose, I said, that we were to learn the
116 Euthyd|            art of using them.~Yes, I said; and I take your words to
117 Euthyd|           you agree with me?~Yes, he said, I think that you are quite
118 Euthyd|          Whither then shall we go, I said, and to what art shall we
119 Euthyd|              I do not see my way, he said.~But I think that I do,
120 Euthyd|         happy.~I do not think so, he said.~Why not? I said.~The art
121 Euthyd|              so, he said.~Why not? I said.~The art of the general
122 Euthyd|             mankind.~What of that? I said.~Why, he said, no art of
123 Euthyd|             of that? I said.~Why, he said, no art of hunting extends
124 Euthyd|           any sense in them.~Good, I said, fairest and wisest Cleinias.
125 Euthyd|             this true?~Certainly, he said; just as a general when
126 Euthyd|         Socrates, that the youngster said all this?~SOCRATES: Are
127 Euthyd|             our Castor and Pollux, I said, and they should be serious,
128 Euthyd|          Would you rather, Socrates, said he, that I should show you
129 Euthyd|             already have it?~What, I said, are you blessed with such
130 Euthyd|              learn.~Then tell me, he said, do you know anything?~Yes,
131 Euthyd|            you know anything?~Yes, I said, I know many things, but
132 Euthyd|         importance.~That will do, he said: And would you admit that
133 Euthyd|             things?~Certainly not, I said, for there are many other
134 Euthyd|             are not knowing, and you said just now that you were knowing;
135 Euthyd|      Socrates, you are convicted, he said.~Well, but, Euthydemus,
136 Euthyd|             Well, but, Euthydemus, I said, has that never happened
137 Euthyd|             Certainly not, Socrates, said Dionysodorus.~What do you
138 Euthyd|    Dionysodorus.~What do you mean, I said; do you know nothing?~Nay,
139 Euthyd|              know something.~Then, I said, you know all things, if
140 Euthyd|        anything?~Yes, all things, he said; and that is as true of
141 Euthyd|           you as of us.~O, indeed, I said, what a wonderful thing,
142 Euthyd|             what is the inference? I said.~They all know all things,
143 Euthyd|             heavens, Dionysodorus, I said, I see now that you are
144 Euthyd|       leather-cutting?~Certainly, he said.~And do you know stitching?~
145 Euthyd|             say No to that?~By Zeus, said Ctesippus, interrupting,
146 Euthyd|           proof shall I give you? he said.~Will you tell me how many
147 Euthyd|           all things?~Certainly not, said Ctesippus: you must further
148 Euthyd|               He can do anything, he said.~And did you always know
149 Euthyd|         always know this?~Always, he said.~When you were children,
150 Euthyd|             at your birth?~They both said that they did.~This we could
151 Euthyd|              believe. And Euthydemus said: You are incredulous, Socrates.~
152 Euthyd|        incredulous, Socrates.~Yes, I said, and I might well be incredulous,
153 Euthyd|           But if you will answer, he said, I will make you confess
154 Euthyd|             similar marvels.~Well, I said, there is nothing that I
155 Euthyd|          gain to me.~Answer then, he said.~Ask, I said, and I will
156 Euthyd|         Answer then, he said.~Ask, I said, and I will answer.~Do you
157 Euthyd|             or nothing?~Something, I said.~And do you know with what
158 Euthyd|           you are asked one?~Well, I said; but then what am I to do?
159 Euthyd|             notion of my meaning, he said.~Yes, I replied.~Well, then,
160 Euthyd|         notion of my meaning.~Yes, I said; but if the question which
161 Euthyd|           unless I understand you, I said.~You will not answer, he
162 Euthyd|              You will not answer, he said, according to your view
163 Euthyd|              refuse to take me. So I said: You are a far better dialectician
164 Euthyd|              answer.~Answer then, he said, again, whether you know
165 Euthyd|              or with nothing.~Yes, I said; I know with my soul.~The
166 Euthyd|            for I did not ask you, he said, with what you know, but
167 Euthyd|            There again, Socrates, he said, the addition is superfluous.~
168 Euthyd|           superfluous.~Well, then, I said, I will take away the words ‘
169 Euthyd|              impossible.~And now, he said, you may add on whatever
170 Euthyd|              suppose that is true, I said, if my qualification implied
171 Euthyd|               reverend Euthydemus, I said, if you are really speaking
172 Euthyd|            not unjust.~Quite true, I said; and that I have always
173 Euthyd|            good are unjust?~Nowhere, said Dionysodorus.~Then, I said,
174 Euthyd|           said Dionysodorus.~Then, I said, I do not know this.~You
175 Euthyd|            are ruining the argument, said Euthydemus to Dionysodorus;
176 Euthyd|             turned to the other, and said, What do you think, Euthydemus?
177 Euthyd|              Euthydemus?~Thereupon I said, Please not to interrupt,
178 Euthyd|              running away, Socrates, said Dionysodorus, and refusing
179 Euthyd|              to answer.~No wonder, I said, for I am not a match for
180 Euthyd|             yourself of this strain, said Dionysodorus, will you inform
181 Euthyd|          answer you, Dionysodorus, I said, for you will insist on
182 Euthyd|       Euthydemus.~Then answer me, he said.~Well then, I said, I can
183 Euthyd|            me, he said.~Well then, I said, I can only reply that Iolaus
184 Euthyd|       Heracles.~And is Patrocles, he said, your brother?~Yes, I said,
185 Euthyd|           said, your brother?~Yes, I said, he is my half-brother,
186 Euthyd|          same father, my good man, I said, for Chaeredemus was his
187 Euthyd|             Chaeredemus also?~Yes, I said; the former was my father,
188 Euthyd|             the latter his.~Then, he said, Chaeredemus is not a father.~
189 Euthyd|               He is not my father, I said.~But can a father be other
190 Euthyd|           think that I am a stone, I said, though I am afraid that
191 Euthyd|               And so Chaeredemus, he said, being other than a father,
192 Euthyd|           father, I replied.~For if, said Euthydemus, taking up the
193 Euthyd|              taking up the argument, said: And is not your father
194 Euthyd|            my father?~Assuredly not, said Euthydemus.~Then he is the
195 Euthyd|         Certainly, I did so imagine, said Ctesippus.~And do you suppose
196 Euthyd|           pari materia,’ Euthydemus, said Ctesippus, and you had better
197 Euthyd|          replied.~What, of men only, said Ctesippus, or of horses
198 Euthyd|            other animals?~Of all, he said.~And your mother, too, is
199 Euthyd|             then?~Yes; and yours, he said.~And gudgeons and puppies
200 Euthyd|             dog?~And so is yours, he said.~If you will answer my questions,
201 Euthyd|            will answer my questions, said Dionysodorus, I will soon
202 Euthyd|             Yes, a villain of a one, said Ctesippus.~And he has puppies?~
203 Euthyd|              father of them?~Yes, he said, I certainly saw him and
204 Euthyd|            one little question more, said Dionysodorus, quickly interposing,
205 Euthyd|             beat this dog?~Ctesippus said, laughing, Indeed I do;
206 Euthyd|             you beat your father, he said.~I should have far more
207 Euthyd|           more reason to beat yours, said Ctesippus; what could he
208 Euthyd|              no need, Euthydemus? he said.~Neither I nor any other
209 Euthyd|              much for him?~Ctesippus said: Quite so, Euthydemus, that
210 Euthyd|              as possible?~Very true, said Ctesippus; and do you think,
211 Euthyd|              answer of Ctesippus and said:—~Do you not think that
212 Euthyd|           gold is a good thing?~Yes, said Ctesippus, and the more
213 Euthyd|          Certainly, a great good, he said.~And you admit gold to be
214 Euthyd|         either eye?~Yes, Euthydemus, said Ctesippus; and the Scythians
215 Euthyd|               or that which has not? said Euthydemus.~That which has
216 Euthyd|            the quality of vision? he said. (Note: the ambiguity of (
217 Euthyd|          They can see to any extent, said Ctesippus.~What can they
218 Euthyd|              silence of the speaker? said Dionysodorus.~Impossible,
219 Euthyd|            Dionysodorus.~Impossible, said Ctesippus.~Or a speaking
220 Euthyd|            still more impossible, he said.~But when you speak of stones,
221 Euthyd|       present).~When you are silent, said Euthydemus, is there not
222 Euthyd|       silence of all things?~Yes, he said.~But if speaking things
223 Euthyd|           speaking are silent.~What, said Ctesippus; then all things
224 Euthyd|           not silent?~Certainly not, said Euthydemus.~Then, my good
225 Euthyd|              those which speak.~Nay, said Ctesippus, but the question
226 Euthyd|             speak?~Neither and both, said Dionysodorus, quickly interposing;
227 Euthyd|          into a roar of laughter; he said, That brother of yours,
228 Euthyd|            do you laugh, Cleinias, I said, at such solemn and beautiful
229 Euthyd|     beautiful things?~Why, Socrates, said Dionysodorus, did you ever
230 Euthyd|            opened my mouth at all: I said however, They are not the
231 Euthyd|               I replied.~But how, he said, by reason of one thing
232 Euthyd|              that your difficulty? I said. For I was beginning to
233 Euthyd|            you mean, Dionysodorus? I said. Is not the honourable honourable
234 Euthyd|              the base base?~That, he said, is as I please.~And do
235 Euthyd|           And do you please?~Yes, he said.~And you will admit that
236 Euthyd|              excellently well.~What, said he, is the business of a
237 Euthyd|          boil and roast?~The cook, I said.~And if a man does his business
238 Euthyd|          their business.~Poseidon, I said, this is the crown of wisdom;
239 Euthyd|        become your own?~Certainly, I said, if you will allow me.~What,
240 Euthyd|              will allow me.~What, he said, do you think that you know
241 Euthyd|              would deem your own, he said, that which you have in
242 Euthyd|            in your own power?~Yes, I said (for I was certain that
243 Euthyd|        things only are mine.~Yes, he said, and you would mean by animals
244 Euthyd|        animals living beings?~Yes, I said.~You agree then, that those
245 Euthyd| contemplation of something great, he said: Tell me, Socrates, have
246 Euthyd|              that he may get away, I said: No, Dionysodorus, I have
247 Euthyd|             man you must be then, he said; you are not an Athenian
248 Euthyd|      gentility.~Nay, Dionysodorus, I said, do not be rough; good words,
249 Euthyd|              not other Athenians, he said, an ancestral Zeus?~That
250 Euthyd|         ancestral Zeus?~That name, I said, is not to be found among
251 Euthyd|            unknown to us.~No matter, said Dionysodorus, for you admit
252 Euthyd|             and Athene.~Certainly, I said.~And they are your gods,
253 Euthyd|           And they are your gods, he said.~Yes, I said, my lords and
254 Euthyd|           your gods, he said.~Yes, I said, my lords and ancestors.~
255 Euthyd|              rate they are yours, he said, did you not admit that?~
256 Euthyd|             not admit that?~I did, I said; what is going to happen
257 Euthyd|              life?~They have life, I said.~Then are they not animals?~
258 Euthyd|         animals?~They are animals, I said.~And you admitted that of
259 Euthyd|            way of escape.~Well then, said he, if you admit that Zeus
260 Euthyd|               Heracles, brave words, said he.~Bravo Heracles, or is
261 Euthyd|              or is Heracles a Bravo? said Dionysodorus.~Poseidon,
262 Euthyd|              Dionysodorus.~Poseidon, said Ctesippus, what awful distinctions.
263 Euthyd|       marvellous dexterity of wit, I said, enabled you to acquire
264 Euthyd|          repeat one thing which they said, for your especial benefit,—
265 Euthyd|            may as well hear what was said to me by a man of very considerable
266 Euthyd|        walking up and down. ‘Crito,’ said he to me, ‘are you giving
267 Euthyd|           wise men?’ ‘No, indeed,’ I said to him; ‘I could not get
268 Euthyd|             had.’ ‘What was that?’ I said. ‘You would have heard the
269 Euthyd|            did you think of them?’ I said. ‘What did I think of them?’
270 Euthyd|             did I think of them?’ he said:—‘theirs was the sort of
271 Euthyd|           which he used. ‘Surely,’ I said, ‘philosophy is a charming
272 Euthyd|      charming thing.’ ‘Charming!’ he said; ‘what simplicity! philosophy