Dialogue

  1  Gorg|    compromises; he is unwilling to say that to do is fairer or
  2  Gorg|         could hardly have meant to say that arithmetic was the
  3  Gorg|            between them? ‘I should say, Socrates, that the art
  4  Gorg|            on him.~‘Do you mean to say that the rhetoricians are
  5  Gorg|           witness only,—that is to say, the person with whom he
  6  Gorg|            to politics, and I dare say that politicians are equally
  7  Gorg|            regard, and therefore I say to you, as Zethus says to
  8  Gorg|            the wiser.’ You mean to say that one man of sense ought
  9  Gorg|            do you mean?’ I mean to say that every man is his own
 10  Gorg|           danger; and this, as you say, is the use of rhetoric
 11  Gorg|           diseased in mind—who can say? The engineer too will often
 12  Gorg|      become like them. What do you say to this?~‘There is some
 13  Gorg|        jury of children. He cannot say that he has procured the
 14  Gorg|             have nothing better to say, and no one will ever show
 15  Gorg|   utilitarian point of view. If we say that the ideal is generally
 16  Gorg|            Neither does he mean to say that Archelaus is tormented
 17  Gorg|         others. It is difficult to say how far in such cases an
 18  Gorg|          of circumstances; when we say hastily what we deliberately
 19  Gorg|           the next generation will say of him; not because he is
 20  Gorg|       better part of us would fain say, and the half-conscious
 21  Gorg|          with God.’ Plato does not say that God will order all
 22  Gorg|       well-governed city (shall we say in a religious and respectable
 23  Gorg|   dialectic.~POLUS: What makes you say so, Socrates?~SOCRATES:
 24  Gorg|         was.~POLUS: Why, did I not say that it was the noblest
 25  Gorg|          he asked you at first, to say what this art is, and what
 26  Gorg|            SOCRATES: And are we to say that you are able to make
 27  Gorg|             and you will certainly say, that you never heard a
 28  Gorg|         understand you, but I dare say I shall soon know better;
 29  Gorg|           arts I suppose you would say that they do not come within
 30  Gorg|        wished to be captious might say, ‘And so, Gorgias, you call
 31  Gorg|      mentioning just now; he might say, ‘Socrates, what is arithmetic?’
 32  Gorg|          of calculation?’ I should say, That also is one of the
 33  Gorg|     Concerned with what?’ I should say, like the clerks in the
 34  Gorg|          suppose, again, I were to say that astronomy is only words—
 35  Gorg|            of human things? I dare say that you have heard men
 36  Gorg|         drift?~SOCRATES: I mean to say, that the producers of those
 37  Gorg|           song praises, that is to say, the physician, the trainer,
 38  Gorg|           first the physician will say: ‘O Socrates, Gorgias is
 39  Gorg|          What do you mean? I shall say. Do you mean that your art
 40  Gorg|          the trainer will come and say, ‘I too, Socrates, shall
 41  Gorg|        mine.’ To him again I shall say, Who are you, honest friend,
 42  Gorg|        Consider Socrates,’ he will say, ‘whether Gorgias or any
 43  Gorg|           wealth.’ Well, you and I say to him, and are you a creator
 44  Gorg|         What is that which, as you say, is the greatest good of
 45  Gorg|          rhetoric; and you mean to say, if I am not mistaken, that
 46  Gorg|           such a one, and I should say the same of you.~GORGIAS:
 47  Gorg|         the same effect? I mean to say—Does he who teaches anything
 48  Gorg|          way:— If a person were to say to you, ‘Is there, Gorgias,
 49  Gorg|          rhetoricians: what do you say, Gorgias? Since you profess
 50  Gorg|           you, Gorgias?’ they will say—‘about what will you teach
 51  Gorg|         the use of rhetoric. And I say that if a rhetorician and
 52  Gorg|            itself; I should rather say that those who make a bad
 53  Gorg|          to such fellows. Why do I say this? Why, because I cannot
 54  Gorg|         willing to be refuted if I say anything which is not true,
 55  Gorg|           of it.~GORGIAS: I should say, Socrates, that I am quite
 56  Gorg|     pleased.~SOCRATES: I may truly say, Callicles, that I am willing,
 57  Gorg|          your words; though I dare say that you may be right, and
 58  Gorg|    misunderstood your meaning. You say that you can make any man,
 59  Gorg|          is.~SOCRATES: You mean to say, with the ignorant; for
 60  Gorg|          the other arts; I mean to say, does he really know anything
 61  Gorg|          things as well.~SOCRATES: Say no more, for there you are
 62  Gorg|             and may not go away? I say rather, if you have a real
 63  Gorg|           POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: To say the truth, Polus, it is
 64  Gorg|            in a book of yours, you say that you have made an art.~
 65  Gorg|          thing?~SOCRATES: I should say a sort of experience.~POLUS:
 66  Gorg|          POLUS: Did I not hear you say that rhetoric was a sort
 67  Gorg|           then?~SOCRATES: I should say an experience.~POLUS: In
 68  Gorg|            part of what, Socrates? Say what you mean, and never
 69  Gorg|        SOCRATES: Ignoble, I should say, if I am compelled to answer,
 70  Gorg|         Indeed, Socrates, I cannot say that I understand myself.~
 71  Gorg|           in appearance? I mean to say, that there are many persons
 72  Gorg|          and therefore I will only say, after the manner of the
 73  Gorg|    rhetoric : justice.~And this, I say, is the natural difference
 74  Gorg|       SOCRATES: Not if you mean to say that power is a good to
 75  Gorg|          that is what I do mean to say.~SOCRATES: Then, if so,
 76  Gorg|         SOCRATES: Why, did you not say just now that the rhetoricians
 77  Gorg|             SOCRATES: Well then, I say to you that here are two
 78  Gorg|         call him?—not you, for you say that power is a good to
 79  Gorg| congratulate themselves, if as you say, power be indeed a good,
 80  Gorg|           This fellow—~SOCRATES: I say that they do not do as they
 81  Gorg|        think best?~SOCRATES: And I say so still.~POLUS: Then surely
 82  Gorg|        words, good Polus, as I may say in your own peculiar style;
 83  Gorg|            it; for we will, as you say, that which is our good,
 84  Gorg|             SOCRATES: No, I do not say that of him: but neither
 85  Gorg|        friend, when I have said my say, do you reply to me. Suppose
 86  Gorg|      dagger under my arm. Polus, I say to you, I have just acquired
 87  Gorg|          because he who did as you say would be certain to be punished.~
 88  Gorg|         Tell me, then, when do you say that they are good and when
 89  Gorg|         have the answer from me, I say that they are good when
 90  Gorg|      miserable?~SOCRATES: I cannot say, Polus, for I have never
 91  Gorg|       clearly, Socrates, you would say that you did not even know
 92  Gorg|       happiest of them, and I dare say that there are many Athenians,
 93  Gorg|       which I stand refuted when I say that the unjust man is not
 94  Gorg|         Certainly.~SOCRATES: But I say that this is an impossibility—
 95  Gorg|           good. And do you mean to say also that if he meets with
 96  Gorg|         other, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Say rather, Polus, impossible;
 97  Gorg|          the paradox which, as you say, cannot be refuted?~SOCRATES:
 98  Gorg|           memory a little; did you say—‘in an unjust attempt to
 99  Gorg|            I did.~SOCRATES: Then I say that neither of them will
100  Gorg|     sufficiently refuted, when you say that which no human being
101  Gorg|      punished.~POLUS: And I should say neither I, nor any man:
102  Gorg|          hear what you can have to say.~SOCRATES: Tell me, then,
103  Gorg|            suffer?~POLUS: I should say that suffering was worst.~
104  Gorg|      SOCRATES: I understand you to say, if I am not mistaken, that
105  Gorg|            SOCRATES: And you would say of figures or colours generally
106  Gorg|          both of these; that is to say, in pleasure or utility
107  Gorg|       suffering wrong? Did you not say, that suffering wrong was
108  Gorg|          Yes.~SOCRATES: That is to say, in evil?~POLUS: True.~SOCRATES:
109  Gorg|      without shrinking, and either say ‘Yes’ or ‘No’ to me.~POLUS:
110  Gorg|             to me.~POLUS: I should say ‘No.’~SOCRATES: Would any
111  Gorg|      supposed. Consider:—You would say that to suffer punishment
112  Gorg|           patient?~POLUS: I should say so.~SOCRATES: And will not
113  Gorg|            bodily frame, you would say that the evil is weakness
114  Gorg|      Socrates?~SOCRATES: I mean to say, that is most disgraceful
115  Gorg|         True.~SOCRATES: That is to say, he who receives admonition
116  Gorg|       punishment; and this, as you say, has been accomplished by
117  Gorg|           diseased body; a soul, I say, which is corrupt and unrighteous
118  Gorg|           indeed be useful. Do you say ‘Yes’ or ‘No’ to that?~POLUS:
119  Gorg|       joking?~CHAEREPHON: I should say, Callicles, that he is in
120  Gorg|           in earnest, and what you say is true, is not the whole
121  Gorg|        different persons—I mean to say, if every man’s feelings
122  Gorg|            strangeness of what you say from time to time when under
123  Gorg|        help saying what your loves say unless they are prevented;
124  Gorg|            the same trap. I cannot say very much for his wit when
125  Gorg|       because he was too modest to say what he thought, he had
126  Gorg|            person is too modest to say what he thinks, he is compelled
127  Gorg|           better of them; and they say, that dishonesty is shameful
128  Gorg|          now: for I am disposed to say to you much what Zethus
129  Gorg|           and not having a word to say; and when you went up before
130  Gorg|            different?~CALLICLES: I say unequivocally that they
131  Gorg|            of the many is what you say.~SOCRATES: Then not only
132  Gorg|       better: do you imagine me to say, that if a rabble of slaves
133  Gorg|          me ask you what you would say in this case: Let us suppose
134  Gorg|         meaning, perhaps you would say that the wise and good and
135  Gorg|            conceal, and hence they say that intemperance is base.
136  Gorg|    temperance—to a man like him, I say, who might freely be enjoying
137  Gorg|         the argument; for what you say is what the rest of the
138  Gorg|          think, but do not like to say. And I must beg of you to
139  Gorg|       manifest. Tell me, then:—you say, do you not, that in the
140  Gorg|           have heard a philosopher say that at this moment we are
141  Gorg|           lives:—And now would you say that the life of the intemperate
142  Gorg|            they were too modest to say what they thought; but you
143  Gorg|            Or would you venture to say, that they too are happy,
144  Gorg|       would still ask, whether you say that pleasure and good are
145  Gorg|        sake of consistency, I will say that they are the same.~
146  Gorg|         search after truth, if you say what is contrary to your
147  Gorg|            SOCRATES: And would you say that pleasure and knowledge
148  Gorg|            SOCRATES: And would you say that courage differed from
149  Gorg|        friend Socrates, of Foxton, say—does he assent to this,
150  Gorg|         former admissions.—Did you say that to hunger, I mean the
151  Gorg|         are simultaneous, when you say that being thirsty, you
152  Gorg|         are the good—would you not say so?~CALLICLES: Certainly.~
153  Gorg|         brave?~CALLICLES: I should say ‘most’ of both; or at any
154  Gorg|       departure?~CALLICLES: I dare say.~SOCRATES: Then are the
155  Gorg|      SOCRATES: And would you still say that the evil are evil by
156  Gorg|        equal degrees? or would you say that the coward has more?~
157  Gorg|          more?~CALLICLES: I should say that he has.~SOCRATES: Help
158  Gorg|           and thrice over, as they say. Both the wise man and the
159  Gorg|             as I understand you to say, I may assume that some
160  Gorg|         now mentioning—you mean to say that those which promote
161  Gorg|           In the first place, what say you of flute-playing? Does
162  Gorg|          SOCRATES: And what do you say of the choral art and of
163  Gorg|          SOCRATES: And what do you say of his father, Meles the
164  Gorg|            general, what would you say? Have they not been invented
165  Gorg|         Very good. And what do you say of that other rhetoric which
166  Gorg|            the public in what they say, while others are such as
167  Gorg|           citizens, and strives to say what is best, whether welcome
168  Gorg|       SOCRATES: And what would you say of the soul? Will the good
169  Gorg|      should, I will; and you shall say whether you agree with me,
170  Gorg|        true?~CALLICLES: I will not say No to it.~SOCRATES: For
171  Gorg|         SOCRATES: Well, but people say that ‘a tale should have
172  Gorg|    yourself?~SOCRATES: Must I then say with Epicharmus, ‘Two men
173  Gorg|         hear what more you have to say.~SOCRATES: I too, Gorgias,
174  Gorg|       order or arrangement? Yes, I say. And that which makes a
175  Gorg|            condition which, as you say, is the height of disgrace.
176  Gorg|      possibility of denying what I say. For my position has always
177  Gorg|        never met any one who could say otherwise, any more than
178  Gorg|          SOCRATES: And what do you say of doing injustice? Is the
179  Gorg|            still? Surely you might say, Callicles, whether you
180  Gorg|          to like, as ancient sages say: Would you not agree to
181  Gorg|         you and your friends would say, the end of becoming a great
182  Gorg|          would hear me too. I dare say that he will kill him if
183  Gorg|            he would have plenty to say. Nevertheless you despise
184  Gorg|   mentioning? I know that you will say, ‘I am better, and better
185  Gorg|           the better is not what I say, and virtue consists only
186  Gorg|           time?—he knows, as women say, that no man can escape
187  Gorg|        enchantresses, who, as they say, bring down the moon from
188  Gorg|          or worse, then I can only say that you are mistaken, Callides;
189  Gorg|          another mind. What do you say?~CALLICLES: Somehow or other
190  Gorg|        adversary to me; but I dare say that if we recur to these
191  Gorg|          gentle and good. Shall we say that?~CALLICLES: Yes, certainly,
192  Gorg|          art! Is not this, as they say, to begin with the big jar
193  Gorg|         you answer? Whom would you say that you had improved by
194  Gorg|    SOCRATES: Why, surely you would say that he was a bad manager
195  Gorg|         received them? What do you say?~CALLICLES: I will do you
196  Gorg|            really good men, as you say, these things would never
197  Gorg|     SOCRATES: O, my dear friend, I say nothing against them regarded
198  Gorg|            mistresses. Now, when I say that all this is equally
199  Gorg|          their desires, and people say that they have made the
200  Gorg|           SOCRATES: I would rather say, why talk of men who profess
201  Gorg|          family and state, then to say that you will give no advice
202  Gorg|          entire mind.~CALLICLES: I say then that you should be
203  Gorg|            I shall have nothing to say in the justice court. And
204  Gorg|            the truth he could only say, ‘All these evil things,
205  Gorg|         cry out!~CALLICLES: I dare say.~SOCRATES: Would he not
206  Gorg|             And in proof of what I say, if you have no objection,
207  Gorg|             then, as story-tellers say, to a very pretty tale,
208  Gorg|          pretty tale, which I dare say that you may be disposed
209  Gorg|         shall be naked, that is to say, dead—he with his naked
210  Gorg|           man or not; and I should say, Callicles, that he is most
211  Gorg|           your reproach of me, and say, that you will not be able