Dialogue

  1  Gorg|            of his art from Gorgias, Socrates assumes the existence of
  2  Gorg|             two famous paradoxes of Socrates (paradoxes as they are to
  3  Gorg|             stages of the argument. Socrates is deferential towards Gorgias,
  4  Gorg|            to contradict himself by Socrates, and the argument is transferred
  5  Gorg|          has at last to be given by Socrates himself, but before he can
  6  Gorg|          despots, have great power. Socrates denies that they have any
  7  Gorg|            the argument, and leaves Socrates to arrive at the conclusion
  8  Gorg|          dignity, and is treated by Socrates with considerable respect.
  9  Gorg|             public opinion, enables Socrates to detect him in a contradiction.
 10  Gorg|        expresses his approbation of Socrates’ manner of approaching a
 11  Gorg|       question; he is quite ‘one of Socrates’ sort, ready to be refuted
 12  Gorg|            eager that Callicles and Socrates should have the game out.
 13  Gorg|         youth, a runaway ‘colt,’ as Socrates describes him, who wanted
 14  Gorg|           in the judicious hands of Socrates he is soon restored to good-humour,
 15  Gorg|           as they appear to him, of Socrates with evident astonishment.
 16  Gorg|           difficulty convinced that Socrates is in earnest; for if these
 17  Gorg|         life. He has a good will to Socrates, whose talents he evidently
 18  Gorg|        spirit of evil against which Socrates is contending, the spirit
 19  Gorg|             tide of public opinion. Socrates approaches his antagonist
 20  Gorg|             and matter of fact does Socrates become. A repartee of his
 21  Gorg|     defending himself and attacking Socrates, whom he accuses of trifling
 22  Gorg|           is easily turned round by Socrates, and only induced to continue
 23  Gorg|    authority of Gorgias. Once, when Socrates is describing the manner
 24  Gorg|             truth of his words.~The Socrates of the Gorgias may be compared
 25  Gorg|            may be compared with the Socrates of the Protagoras and Meno.
 26  Gorg|  corresponding irony on the part of Socrates. He must speak, for philosophy
 27  Gorg|          over him. He is aware that Socrates, the single real teacher
 28  Gorg|         below. Then the position of Socrates and Callicles will be reversed;
 29  Gorg|             fixed at 405 B.C., when Socrates would already have been
 30  Gorg|       characteristic declaration of Socrates that he is ignorant of the
 31  Gorg|       Memorabilia of Xenophon, does Socrates express any doubt of the
 32  Gorg|           argument in a figure.~(2) Socrates makes the singular remark,
 33  Gorg|             them is worth noticing: Socrates is and is not a public man.
 34  Gorg|       inconsistency: for should not Socrates too have taught the citizens
 35  Gorg|       argument from the beginning.’~Socrates, who is attended by his
 36  Gorg|          friend and disciple Polus.~SOCRATES: Put the question to him,
 37  Gorg|          CHAEREPHON: What question?~SOCRATES: Who is he?—such a question
 38  Gorg|            the manner of his master Socrates. ‘One of the best of men,
 39  Gorg|    rhetorical and balanced phrases. Socrates is dissatisfied at the length
 40  Gorg|             one.’ At the request of Socrates he promises to be brief;
 41  Gorg|            as short as he pleases.’ Socrates would have him bestow his
 42  Gorg|           excites the admiration of Socrates. The result of the discussion
 43  Gorg|           do with external actions. Socrates extends this distinction
 44  Gorg|        between them? ‘I should say, Socrates, that the art of persuasion,
 45  Gorg|             in the company, and not Socrates only, are eagerly asking:—
 46  Gorg|        walls, and of Pericles, whom Socrates himself has heard speaking
 47  Gorg|         they have learned from him.~Socrates would like to know before
 48  Gorg|             exhort them to proceed. Socrates gently points out the supposed
 49  Gorg|            by the interrogations of Socrates?), but he thinks that great
 50  Gorg|            argument to such a pass. Socrates ironically replies, that
 51  Gorg|           the free state of Athens. Socrates retorts, that yet harder
 52  Gorg|            that Polus shall ask and Socrates answer.~‘What is the art
 53  Gorg|          Not an art at all, replies Socrates, but a thing which in your
 54  Gorg|             asks, ‘What thing?’ and Socrates answers, An experience or
 55  Gorg|        explain his meaning to them, Socrates draws a distinction between
 56  Gorg|             their aboriginal chaos. Socrates apologizes for the length
 57  Gorg|            is the good. ‘As if you, Socrates, would not envy the possessor
 58  Gorg|           one whom he pleases.’ But Socrates replies that he has no wish
 59  Gorg|      usurper of Macedonia. Does not Socrates think him happy?—Socrates
 60  Gorg|           Socrates think him happy?—Socrates would like to know more
 61  Gorg|            all the world, including Socrates, would like to have his
 62  Gorg|             like to have his place. Socrates dismisses the appeal to
 63  Gorg|           depends upon numbers. But Socrates employs proof of another
 64  Gorg|             suffers punishment; but Socrates thinks him less miserable
 65  Gorg|   sufficiently refuted by the fact. Socrates has only to compare the
 66  Gorg|        crucified or burnt to death. Socrates replies, that if they are
 67  Gorg|        laughs outright, which leads Socrates to remark that laughter
 68  Gorg|            agrees with him. To this Socrates rejoins, that he is not
 69  Gorg|           or when he is unpunished? Socrates replies, that what is done
 70  Gorg|             asks Chaerephon whether Socrates is in earnest, and on receiving
 71  Gorg|            ask the same question of Socrates himself. For if such doctrines
 72  Gorg|          what we ought to be doing.~Socrates replies in a style of playful
 73  Gorg|          Pyrilampes; the beloved of Socrates are Alcibiades and philosophy.
 74  Gorg|          this is the explanation of Socrates’ peculiarities also. He
 75  Gorg|         nature, says Callicles. And Socrates is always playing between
 76  Gorg|            them.~This is the truth, Socrates, as you will be convinced,
 77  Gorg|          noble sentiments.~For you, Socrates, I have a regard, and therefore
 78  Gorg|            the wealthy and be wise.~Socrates professes to have found
 79  Gorg|       caution against philosophy to Socrates, which Socrates remembers
 80  Gorg|       philosophy to Socrates, which Socrates remembers hearing him give
 81  Gorg|             saying the same things, Socrates.’ Yes, and on the same subjects
 82  Gorg|           things! For the truth is, Socrates, that luxury and self-indulgence
 83  Gorg|             the rest is mere talk.’~Socrates compliments Callicles on
 84  Gorg|           the dead would be happy.’ Socrates in reply is led into a half-serious,
 85  Gorg|           same opinion still? ‘Yes, Socrates, and the figure expresses
 86  Gorg|       topics. But he is reminded by Socrates that they are introduced,
 87  Gorg|             answer does not satisfy Socrates, who fears that he is losing
 88  Gorg|          good, or with one another. Socrates disproves the first of these
 89  Gorg|           interposition of Gorgias. Socrates, having already guarded
 90  Gorg|             the other. But this, as Socrates observes, is a return to
 91  Gorg|      Callicles assents to this, and Socrates, finding that they are agreed
 92  Gorg|          Pericles were still alive. Socrates replies that none of these
 93  Gorg|          restive, and suggests that Socrates shall answer his own questions. ‘
 94  Gorg|             questions. ‘Then,’ says Socrates, ‘one man must do for two;’
 95  Gorg|             similarly imitate him.’ Socrates replies that he is not deaf,
 96  Gorg|           of requiting his teacher.~Socrates concludes by finally asking,
 97  Gorg|             avoiding death, replies Socrates; and he has heard often
 98  Gorg|       clearness is also apparent in Socrates himself, unless we suppose
 99  Gorg|             Callicles.~(2) Although Socrates professes to be convinced
100  Gorg|         must remind the reader that Socrates himself implies that he
101  Gorg|           this ground only, much as Socrates’ friends in the opening
102  Gorg|    self-regarding, considering that Socrates expressly mentions the duty
103  Gorg|           to the fate of his master Socrates. He is convinced that, somehow
104  Gorg|           he puts into the mouth of Socrates, or any other speaker who
105  Gorg|          probably share the fate of Socrates.~...~The irony of Plato
106  Gorg|     themselves. The disguises which Socrates assumes are like the parables
107  Gorg|           sake.’—Matt.~The words of Socrates are more abstract than the
108  Gorg|         often come out of evil. But Socrates would have us pass the same
109  Gorg|          This is the standard which Socrates holds up to us. Because
110  Gorg|           lose their character. But Socrates would speak to them, not
111  Gorg|           The ‘accustomed irony’ of Socrates adds a corollary to the
112  Gorg|           similar figure of speech, Socrates would have them use rhetoric,
113  Gorg|       deceived. And so the words of Socrates, which at first sounded
114  Gorg|             will, but what we wish.~Socrates would teach us a lesson
115  Gorg|             them, seems to have led Socrates to his famous thesis:—‘Virtue
116  Gorg|             their consequences. But Socrates, or Plato for him, neither
117  Gorg|       hypocrisy which, according to Socrates, is the worst of the two.
118  Gorg|   influences of society.~Then comes Socrates, impressed as no other man
119  Gorg|          are disappointed. Then, as Socrates says, the cry of ingratitude
120  Gorg|     idealists in politics who, like Socrates in the Gorgias, find fault
121  Gorg|             the whole. According to Socrates the true governor will find
122  Gorg|    gratitude of his own generation.~Socrates, who is not a politician
123  Gorg|         Lysias; the rival speech of Socrates and the recantation of it.
124  Gorg|     Theaetetus, of the midwifery of Socrates, is perhaps the only exception.
125  Gorg|            THE DIALOGUE: Callicles, Socrates, Chaerephon, Gorgias, Polus.~
126  Gorg|          fray, but not for a feast.~SOCRATES: And are we late for a feast?~
127  Gorg|             to us many fine things.~SOCRATES: It is not my fault, Callicles;
128  Gorg|             CHAEREPHON: Never mind, Socrates; the misfortune of which
129  Gorg|             matter, Chaerephon—does Socrates want to hear Gorgias?~CHAEREPHON:
130  Gorg|            he shall exhibit to you.~SOCRATES: Very good, Callicles; but
131  Gorg|            nothing like asking him, Socrates; and indeed to answer questions
132  Gorg|           and that he would answer.~SOCRATES: How fortunate! will you
133  Gorg|   CHAEREPHON: What shall I ask him?~SOCRATES: Ask him who he is.~CHAEREPHON:
134  Gorg|       CHAEREPHON: What do you mean?~SOCRATES: I mean such a question
135  Gorg|          proficient is the noblest.~SOCRATES: Polus has been taught how
136  Gorg|          GORGIAS: What do you mean, Socrates?~SOCRATES: I mean that he
137  Gorg|         What do you mean, Socrates?~SOCRATES: I mean that he has not
138  Gorg|           why not ask him yourself?~SOCRATES: But I would much rather
139  Gorg|              What makes you say so, Socrates?~SOCRATES: Because, Polus,
140  Gorg|         makes you say so, Socrates?~SOCRATES: Because, Polus, when Chaerephon
141  Gorg|            was the noblest of arts?~SOCRATES: Yes, indeed, but that was
142  Gorg|         profess?~GORGIAS: Rhetoric, Socrates, is my art.~SOCRATES: Then
143  Gorg|      Rhetoric, Socrates, is my art.~SOCRATES: Then I am to call you a
144  Gorg|          rhetorician?~GORGIAS: Yes, Socrates, and a good one too, if
145  Gorg|              I boast myself to be.’~SOCRATES: I should wish to do so.~
146  Gorg|              GORGIAS: Then pray do.~SOCRATES: And are we to say that
147  Gorg|          Athens, but in all places.~SOCRATES: And will you continue to
148  Gorg|              GORGIAS: Some answers, Socrates, are of necessity longer;
149  Gorg|             be as short as any one.~SOCRATES: That is what is wanted,
150  Gorg|        heard a man use fewer words.~SOCRATES: Very good then; as you
151  Gorg|             garments?~GORGIAS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And music is concerned
152  Gorg|           melodies?~GORGIAS: It is.~SOCRATES: By Here, Gorgias, I admire
153  Gorg|         your answers.~GORGIAS: Yes, Socrates, I do think myself good
154  Gorg|          think myself good at that.~SOCRATES: I am glad to hear it; answer
155  Gorg|            GORGIAS: With discourse.~SOCRATES: What sort of discourse,
156  Gorg|        might get well?~GORGIAS: No.~SOCRATES: Then rhetoric does not
157  Gorg|             GORGIAS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: And yet rhetoric makes
158  Gorg|             to speak?~GORGIAS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And to understand that
159  Gorg|          speak?~GORGIAS: Of course.~SOCRATES: But does not the art of
160  Gorg|           sick?~GORGIAS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Then medicine also treats
161  Gorg|            discourse?~GORGIAS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Of discourse concerning
162  Gorg|         diseases?~GORGIAS: Just so.~SOCRATES: And does not gymnastic
163  Gorg|           body?~GORGIAS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And the same, Gorgias,
164  Gorg|            to do.~GORGIAS: Clearly.~SOCRATES: Then why, if you call rhetoric
165  Gorg|         rhetoric?~GORGIAS: Because, Socrates, the knowledge of the other
166  Gorg|       rhetoric treats of discourse.~SOCRATES: I am not sure whether I
167  Gorg|             are arts?~GORGIAS: Yes.~SOCRATES: As to the arts generally,
168  Gorg|      perfectly conceive my meaning, Socrates.~SOCRATES: But there are
169  Gorg|      conceive my meaning, Socrates.~SOCRATES: But there are other arts
170  Gorg|             sort?~GORGIAS: Exactly.~SOCRATES: And yet I do not believe
171  Gorg|       GORGIAS: You are quite right, Socrates, in your apprehension of
172  Gorg|         apprehension of my meaning.~SOCRATES: Well, then, let me now
173  Gorg|            just now; he might say, ‘Socrates, what is arithmetic?’ and
174  Gorg|             ask, ‘Words about what, Socrates?’ and I should answer, that
175  Gorg|           You would be quite right, Socrates.~SOCRATES: And now let us
176  Gorg|           be quite right, Socrates.~SOCRATES: And now let us have from
177  Gorg|            of words?~GORGIAS: True.~SOCRATES: Words which do what? I
178  Gorg|           GORGIAS: To the greatest, Socrates, and the best of human things.~
179  Gorg|           the best of human things.~SOCRATES: That again, Gorgias is
180  Gorg|             but what is your drift?~SOCRATES: I mean to say, that the
181  Gorg|          the physician will say: ‘O Socrates, Gorgias is deceiving you,
182  Gorg|          greater good can men have, Socrates?’ And after him the trainer
183  Gorg|          will come and say, ‘I too, Socrates, shall be greatly surprised
184  Gorg|         despise them all. ‘Consider Socrates,’ he will say, ‘whether
185  Gorg|             us.~GORGIAS: That good, Socrates, which is truly the greatest,
186  Gorg|            in their several states.~SOCRATES: And what would you consider
187  Gorg|             persuade the multitude.~SOCRATES: Now I think, Gorgias, that
188  Gorg|   definition seems to me very fair, Socrates; for persuasion is the chief
189  Gorg|          the chief end of rhetoric.~SOCRATES: Then hear me, Gorgias,
190  Gorg|            GORGIAS: What is coming, Socrates?~SOCRATES: I will tell you:
191  Gorg|           What is coming, Socrates?~SOCRATES: I will tell you: I am very
192  Gorg|          them?’~GORGIAS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And the reason for asking
193  Gorg|             figures?~GORGIAS: True.~SOCRATES: But if there had been no
194  Gorg|            well?~GORGIAS: Quite so.~SOCRATES: Now I want to know about
195  Gorg|              GORGIAS: He persuades, Socrates,—there can be no mistake
196  Gorg|           be no mistake about that.~SOCRATES: Again, if we take the arts
197  Gorg|         number?~GORGIAS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And therefore persuade
198  Gorg|           us of them?~GORGIAS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Then arithmetic as well
199  Gorg|       persuasion?~GORGIAS: Clearly.~SOCRATES: And if any one asks us
200  Gorg|           what.~GORGIAS: Very true.~SOCRATES: Then rhetoric is not the
201  Gorg|          persuasion?~GORGIAS: True.~SOCRATES: Seeing, then, that not
202  Gorg|      question?~GORGIAS: I think so.~SOCRATES: Then, if you approve the
203  Gorg|          answer?~GORGIAS: I answer, Socrates, that rhetoric is the art
204  Gorg|          about the just and unjust.~SOCRATES: And that, Gorgias, was
205  Gorg|           that you are quite right, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Then let me raise
206  Gorg|          are quite right, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Then let me raise another
207  Gorg|             learned’?~GORGIAS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And there is also ‘having
208  Gorg|            believed’?~GORGIAS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And is the ‘having learned’
209  Gorg|            GORGIAS: In my judgment, Socrates, they are not the same.~
210  Gorg|              they are not the same.~SOCRATES: And your judgment is right,
211  Gorg|             there is.~GORGIAS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Well, but is there a false
212  Gorg|             as a true?~GORGIAS: No.~SOCRATES: No, indeed; and this again
213  Gorg|         differ.~GORGIAS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And yet those who have
214  Gorg|        persuaded?~GORGIAS: Just so.~SOCRATES: Shall we then assume two
215  Gorg|              GORGIAS: By all means.~SOCRATES: And which sort of persuasion
216  Gorg|        knowledge?~GORGIAS: Clearly, Socrates, that which only gives belief.~
217  Gorg|            which only gives belief.~SOCRATES: Then rhetoric, as would
218  Gorg|          about them?~GORGIAS: True.~SOCRATES: And the rhetorician does
219  Gorg|             GORGIAS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: Come, then, and let us
220  Gorg|             other things also which Socrates has just mentioned?’ How
221  Gorg|          your way of leading us on, Socrates, and I will endeavour to
222  Gorg|         suggestion of the builders.~SOCRATES: Such is the tradition,
223  Gorg|      GORGIAS: And you will observe, Socrates, that when a decision has
224  Gorg|            men who win their point.~SOCRATES: I had that in my admiring
225  Gorg|          GORGIAS: A marvel, indeed, Socrates, if you only knew how rhetoric
226  Gorg|           art of rhetoric! And yet, Socrates, rhetoric should be used
227  Gorg|             and not his instructor.~SOCRATES: You, Gorgias, like myself,
228  Gorg|              GORGIAS: I should say, Socrates, that I am quite the man
229  Gorg|      audience cheering, Gorgias and Socrates, which shows their desire
230  Gorg|        shall be the better pleased.~SOCRATES: I may truly say, Callicles,
231  Gorg|            GORGIAS: After all this, Socrates, I should be disgraced if
232  Gorg|            question which you like.~SOCRATES: Let me tell you then, Gorgias,
233  Gorg|          rhetorician?~GORGIAS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Do you mean that you will
234  Gorg|      persuasion?~GORGIAS: Quite so.~SOCRATES: You were saying, in fact,
235  Gorg|             the multitude,—that is.~SOCRATES: You mean to say, with the
236  Gorg|     persuasion.~GORGIAS: Very true.~SOCRATES: But if he is to have more
237  Gorg|          knows?~GORGIAS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Although he is not a physician:—
238  Gorg|      physician:—is he?~GORGIAS: No.~SOCRATES: And he who is not a physician
239  Gorg|            knows.~GORGIAS: Clearly.~SOCRATES: Then, when the rhetorician
240  Gorg|             the case supposed:—yes.~SOCRATES: And the same holds of the
241  Gorg|             who know?~GORGIAS: Yes, Socrates, and is not this a great
242  Gorg|             the professors of them?~SOCRATES: Whether the rhetorician
243  Gorg|           you would.~GORGIAS: Well, Socrates, I suppose that if the pupil
244  Gorg|            me these things as well.~SOCRATES: Say no more, for there
245  Gorg|            you.~GORGIAS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Well, and is not he who
246  Gorg|            carpenter?~GORGIAS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And he who has learned
247  Gorg|             musician?~GORGIAS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And he who has learned
248  Gorg|            him.~GORGIAS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And in the same way, he
249  Gorg|          just?~GORGIAS: To be sure.~SOCRATES: And he who is just may
250  Gorg|         what is just?~GORGIAS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And must not the just man
251  Gorg|           is clearly the inference.~SOCRATES: Surely, then, the just
252  Gorg|             GORGIAS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: And according to the argument
253  Gorg|             just man?~GORGIAS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And will therefore never
254  Gorg|    injustice?~GORGIAS: Clearly not.~SOCRATES: But do you remember saying
255  Gorg|         said?~GORGIAS: Yes, it was.~SOCRATES: But now we are affirming
256  Gorg|    injustice at all?~GORGIAS: True.~SOCRATES: And at the very outset,
257  Gorg|            this said?~GORGIAS: Yes.~SOCRATES: I was thinking at the time,
258  Gorg|             POLUS: And do even you, Socrates, seriously believe what
259  Gorg|            argument to such a pass.~SOCRATES: Illustrious Polus, the
260  Gorg|              POLUS: What condition?~SOCRATES: That you contract, Polus,
261  Gorg|             many words as I please?~SOCRATES: Only to think, my friend,
262  Gorg|          would you not?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And you, like him, invite
263  Gorg|             him?~POLUS: To be sure.~SOCRATES: And now, which will you
264  Gorg|          ask; and do you answer me, Socrates, the same question which
265  Gorg|           answer: What is rhetoric?~SOCRATES: Do you mean what sort of
266  Gorg|         sort of an art?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: To say the truth, Polus,
267  Gorg|          your opinion, is rhetoric?~SOCRATES: A thing which, as I was
268  Gorg|             art.~POLUS: What thing?~SOCRATES: I should say a sort of
269  Gorg|            you to be an experience?~SOCRATES: That is my view, but you
270  Gorg|              An experience in what?~SOCRATES: An experience in producing
271  Gorg|           rhetoric be a fine thing?~SOCRATES: What are you saying, Polus?
272  Gorg|           was a sort of experience?~SOCRATES: Will you, who are so desirous
273  Gorg| gratification to me?~POLUS: I will.~SOCRATES: Will you ask me, what sort
274  Gorg|          sort of an art is cookery?~SOCRATES: Not an art at all, Polus.~
275  Gorg|            Polus.~POLUS: What then?~SOCRATES: I should say an experience.~
276  Gorg|            you would explain to me.~SOCRATES: An experience in producing
277  Gorg|      cookery and rhetoric the same?~SOCRATES: No, they are only different
278  Gorg|          POLUS: Of what profession?~SOCRATES: I am afraid that the truth
279  Gorg|            GORGIAS: A part of what, Socrates? Say what you mean, and
280  Gorg|            mean, and never mind me.~SOCRATES: In my opinion then, Gorgias,
281  Gorg|            of flattery is rhetoric?~SOCRATES: Will you understand my
282  Gorg|        POLUS: And noble or ignoble?~SOCRATES: Ignoble, I should say,
283  Gorg|            before.~GORGIAS: Indeed, Socrates, I cannot say that I understand
284  Gorg|           that I understand myself.~SOCRATES: I do not wonder, Gorgias;
285  Gorg|  counterfeit of a part of politics.~SOCRATES: I will try, then, to explain
286  Gorg|          souls?~GORGIAS: Of course.~SOCRATES: You would further admit
287  Gorg|       either of them?~GORGIAS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Which condition may not
288  Gorg|         good health.~GORGIAS: True.~SOCRATES: And this applies not only
289  Gorg|            GORGIAS: Yes, certainly.~SOCRATES: And now I will endeavour
290  Gorg|          that rhetoric is flattery?~SOCRATES: Nay, I said a part of flattery;
291  Gorg|           that they are flatterers?~SOCRATES: Is that a question or the
292  Gorg|             I am asking a question.~SOCRATES: Then my answer is, that
293  Gorg|         very great power in states?~SOCRATES: Not if you mean to say
294  Gorg|           is what I do mean to say.~SOCRATES: Then, if so, I think that
295  Gorg|           any one whom they please.~SOCRATES: By the dog, Polus, I cannot
296  Gorg|           asking a question of you.~SOCRATES: Yes, my friend, but you
297  Gorg|           POLUS: How two questions?~SOCRATES: Why, did you not say just
298  Gorg|          they please?~POLUS: I did.~SOCRATES: Well then, I say to you
299  Gorg|             not that a great power?~SOCRATES: Polus has already said
300  Gorg|              that is what I assert.~SOCRATES: No, by the great—what do
301  Gorg|             the power.~POLUS: I do.~SOCRATES: And would you maintain
302  Gorg|         power?~POLUS: I should not.~SOCRATES: Then you must prove that
303  Gorg|           POLUS: Yes; I admit that.~SOCRATES: How then can the rhetoricians
304  Gorg|             unless Polus can refute Socrates, and prove to him that they
305  Gorg|           will?~POLUS: This fellow—~SOCRATES: I say that they do not
306  Gorg|         they do as they think best?~SOCRATES: And I say so still.~POLUS:
307  Gorg|        surely they do as they will?~SOCRATES: I deny it.~POLUS: But they
308  Gorg|            do what they think best?~SOCRATES: Aye.~POLUS: That, Socrates,
309  Gorg|         SOCRATES: Aye.~POLUS: That, Socrates, is monstrous and absurd.~
310  Gorg|            is monstrous and absurd.~SOCRATES: Good words, good Polus,
311  Gorg|             may know what you mean.~SOCRATES: Do men appear to you to
312  Gorg|         POLUS: Clearly, the health.~SOCRATES: And when men go on a voyage
313  Gorg|           voyage.~POLUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And is not this universally
314  Gorg|             he does it.~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And are not all things
315  Gorg|     indifferent?~POLUS: To be sure, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Wisdom and health
316  Gorg|        POLUS: To be sure, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Wisdom and health and wealth
317  Gorg|             evils?~POLUS: I should.~SOCRATES: And the things which are
318  Gorg|            evil?~POLUS: Exactly so.~SOCRATES: Are these indifferent things
319  Gorg|           for the sake of the good.~SOCRATES: When we walk we walk for
320  Gorg|            of the good?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And when we kill a man
321  Gorg|             good?~POLUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Men who do any of these
322  Gorg|            of the good?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And did we not admit that
323  Gorg|             them?~POLUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: Then we do not will simply
324  Gorg|        right?~POLUS: You are right.~SOCRATES: Hence we may infer, that
325  Gorg|            best to him?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: But does he do what he
326  Gorg|         POLUS: Well, I suppose not.~SOCRATES: Then if great power is
327  Gorg|          state?~POLUS: He will not.~SOCRATES: Then I was right in saying
328  Gorg|        wills?~POLUS: As though you, Socrates, would not like to have
329  Gorg|            whom he pleased, Oh, no!~SOCRATES: Justly or unjustly, do
330  Gorg|           not equally to be envied?~SOCRATES: Forbear, Polus!~POLUS:
331  Gorg|        Polus!~POLUS: Why ‘forbear’?~SOCRATES: Because you ought not to
332  Gorg|           of whom I spoke wretches?~SOCRATES: Yes, certainly they are.~
333  Gorg|           is pitiable and wretched?~SOCRATES: No, I do not say that of
334  Gorg|            now that he is wretched?~SOCRATES: Yes, my friend, if he killed
335  Gorg|         wretched, and to be pitied?~SOCRATES: Not so much, Polus, as
336  Gorg|             POLUS: How can that be, Socrates?~SOCRATES: That may very
337  Gorg|          How can that be, Socrates?~SOCRATES: That may very well be,
338  Gorg|           injustice a greater evil?~SOCRATES: Certainly not.~POLUS: Then
339  Gorg|           suffer than do injustice?~SOCRATES: I should not like either,
340  Gorg|            not wish to be a tyrant?~SOCRATES: Not if you mean by tyranny
341  Gorg|             all things as you like.~SOCRATES: Well then, illustrious
342  Gorg|           you would probably reply: Socrates, in that sort of way any
343  Gorg|             not such doing as this.~SOCRATES: But can you tell me why
344  Gorg|         such a power?~POLUS: I can.~SOCRATES: Why then?~POLUS: Why, because
345  Gorg|             certain to be punished.~SOCRATES: And punishment is an evil?~
346  Gorg|             evil?~POLUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And you would admit once
347  Gorg|             good?~POLUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: About that you and I may
348  Gorg|      supposed to agree?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Tell me, then, when do
349  Gorg|              POLUS: I would rather, Socrates, that you should answer
350  Gorg|          well as ask that question.~SOCRATES: Well, Polus, since you
351  Gorg|             are hard of refutation, Socrates, but might not a child refute
352  Gorg|        child refute that statement?~SOCRATES: Then I shall be very grateful
353  Gorg|            to a friend.~POLUS: Yes, Socrates, and I need not go far or
354  Gorg|             who do wrong are happy.~SOCRATES: What events?~POLUS: You
355  Gorg|             the ruler of Macedonia?~SOCRATES: At any rate I hear that
356  Gorg|           he is happy or miserable?~SOCRATES: I cannot say, Polus, for
357  Gorg|             whether a man is happy?~SOCRATES: Most certainly not.~POLUS:
358  Gorg|           not.~POLUS: Then clearly, Socrates, you would say that you
359  Gorg|         great king was a happy man?~SOCRATES: And I should speak the
360  Gorg|          happiness consist in this?~SOCRATES: Yes, indeed, Polus, that
361  Gorg|             Archelaus is miserable?~SOCRATES: Yes, my friend, if he is
362  Gorg|          Macedonian than Archelaus!~SOCRATES: I praised you at first,
363  Gorg|          surely must think as I do.~SOCRATES: Not so, my simple friend,
364  Gorg|          opinion?~POLUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: But I say that this is
365  Gorg|             will be most miserable.~SOCRATES: On the other hand, if the
366  Gorg|          will be happy?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: But in my opinion, Polus,
367  Gorg|     maintaining a strange doctrine, Socrates.~SOCRATES: I shall try to
368  Gorg|         strange doctrine, Socrates.~SOCRATES: I shall try to make you
369  Gorg|       injustice?~POLUS: Exactly so.~SOCRATES: And you said the opposite?~
370  Gorg|           the opposite?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: I said also that the wicked
371  Gorg|              POLUS: By Zeus, I did.~SOCRATES: In your own opinion, Polus.~
372  Gorg|            that I was in the right.~SOCRATES: You further said that the
373  Gorg|       unpunished?~POLUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And I affirm that he is
374  Gorg|          refutation than the other, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Say rather, Polus,
375  Gorg|           than the other, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Say rather, Polus, impossible;
376  Gorg|             say, cannot be refuted?~SOCRATES: There again, noble Polus,
377  Gorg|         tyrant’?~POLUS: Yes, I did.~SOCRATES: Then I say that neither
378  Gorg|        POLUS: But do you not think, Socrates, that you have been sufficiently
379  Gorg|             allow? Ask the company.~SOCRATES: O Polus, I am not a public
380  Gorg|           rather than do injustice?~SOCRATES: Yes, and you, too; I or
381  Gorg|            you, nor I, nor any man.~SOCRATES: But will you answer?~POLUS:
382  Gorg|           what you can have to say.~SOCRATES: Tell me, then, and you
383  Gorg|           that suffering was worst.~SOCRATES: And which is the greater
384  Gorg|     disgrace?—Answer.~POLUS: To do.~SOCRATES: And the greater disgrace
385  Gorg|         evil?~POLUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: I understand you to say,
386  Gorg|         evil?~POLUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: Let me ask a question of
387  Gorg|            beauty?~POLUS: I cannot.~SOCRATES: And you would say of figures
388  Gorg|         both?~POLUS: Yes, I should.~SOCRATES: And you would call sounds
389  Gorg|            reason?~POLUS: I should.~SOCRATES: Laws and institutions also
390  Gorg|           both?~POLUS: I think not.~SOCRATES: And may not the same be
391  Gorg|       knowledge?~POLUS: To be sure, Socrates; and I very much approve
392  Gorg|            of pleasure and utility.~SOCRATES: And deformity or disgrace
393  Gorg|             evil?~POLUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Then when of two beautiful
394  Gorg|             both?~POLUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And of two deformed things,
395  Gorg|           it not be so?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: But then again, what was
396  Gorg|          disgraceful?~POLUS: I did.~SOCRATES: Then, if doing wrong is
397  Gorg|           follow?~POLUS: Of course.~SOCRATES: First, then, let us consider
398  Gorg|             the injured?~POLUS: No, Socrates; certainly not.~SOCRATES:
399  Gorg|            Socrates; certainly not.~SOCRATES: Then they do not exceed
400  Gorg|          exceed in pain?~POLUS: No.~SOCRATES: But if not in pain, then
401  Gorg|         both?~POLUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: Then they can only exceed
402  Gorg|           in the other?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: That is to say, in evil?~
403  Gorg|          say, in evil?~POLUS: True.~SOCRATES: Then doing injustice will
404  Gorg|          injustice?~POLUS: Clearly.~SOCRATES: But have not you and the
405  Gorg|         than to suffer?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And that is now discovered
406  Gorg|             more evil?~POLUS: True.~SOCRATES: And would you prefer a
407  Gorg|           POLUS: I should say ‘No.’~SOCRATES: Would any other man prefer
408  Gorg|            way of putting the case, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Then I said truly,
409  Gorg|         putting the case, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Then I said truly, Polus,
410  Gorg|             That is the conclusion.~SOCRATES: You see, Polus, when you
411  Gorg|             wrong?~POLUS: I should.~SOCRATES: And would you not allow
412  Gorg|           your opinion.~POLUS: Yes, Socrates, I think that they are.~
413  Gorg|              I think that they are.~SOCRATES: Consider again:—Where there
414  Gorg|             POLUS: I should say so.~SOCRATES: And will not the patient
415  Gorg|            is stricken?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And if the striker strikes
416  Gorg|            or quickly?~POLUS: True.~SOCRATES: And the suffering to him
417  Gorg|            who strikes?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And if a man burns, there
418  Gorg|           burned?~POLUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And if he burns in excess
419  Gorg|             same way?~POLUS: Truly.~SOCRATES: And if he cuts, the same
420  Gorg|          something cut?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And if the cutting be great
421  Gorg|             POLUS: That is evident.~SOCRATES: Then you would agree generally
422  Gorg|          the agent?~POLUS: I agree.~SOCRATES: Then, as this is admitted,
423  Gorg|           acting?~POLUS: Suffering, Socrates; there can be no doubt of
424  Gorg|            can be no doubt of that.~SOCRATES: And suffering implies an
425  Gorg|            agent?~POLUS: Certainly, Socrates; and he is the punisher.~
426  Gorg|             and he is the punisher.~SOCRATES: And he who punishes rightly,
427  Gorg|        punishes justly?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And therefore he acts justly?~
428  Gorg|         acts justly?~POLUS: Justly.~SOCRATES: Then he who is punished
429  Gorg|             POLUS: That is evident.~SOCRATES: And that which is just
430  Gorg|       honourable?~POLUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Then the punisher does
431  Gorg|            honourable?~POLUS: True.~SOCRATES: And if what is honourable,
432  Gorg|           useful?~POLUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Then he who is punished
433  Gorg|          good?~POLUS: That is true.~SOCRATES: Then he is benefited?~POLUS:
434  Gorg|           is benefited?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Do I understand you to
435  Gorg|            improved.~POLUS: Surely.~SOCRATES: Then he who is punished
436  Gorg|            of his soul?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And is he not then delivered
437  Gorg|           There is no greater evil.~SOCRATES: Again, in a man’s bodily
438  Gorg|         deformity?~POLUS: I should.~SOCRATES: And do you not imagine
439  Gorg|          her own?~POLUS: Of course.~SOCRATES: And this you would call
440  Gorg|             like?~POLUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: So then, in mind, body,
441  Gorg|      disease, poverty?~POLUS: True.~SOCRATES: And which of the evils
442  Gorg|             POLUS: By far the most.~SOCRATES: And if the most disgraceful,
443  Gorg|            POLUS: What do you mean, Socrates?~SOCRATES: I mean to say,
444  Gorg|         What do you mean, Socrates?~SOCRATES: I mean to say, that is
445  Gorg|             both.~POLUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And now injustice and all
446  Gorg|        POLUS: It has been admitted.~SOCRATES: And most disgraceful either
447  Gorg|             both?~POLUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And therefore to be unjust
448  Gorg|          poor and sick?~POLUS: Nay, Socrates; the painfulness does not
449  Gorg|          follow from your premises.~SOCRATES: Then, if, as you would
450  Gorg|           the evil.~POLUS: Clearly.~SOCRATES: And that which exceeds
451  Gorg|      greatest of evils?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Then injustice and intemperance,
452  Gorg|             POLUS: That is evident.~SOCRATES: Now, what art is there
453  Gorg|           making money?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And what art frees us from
454  Gorg|         medicine?~POLUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And what from vice and
455  Gorg|           POLUS: To the physicians, Socrates.~SOCRATES: And to whom do
456  Gorg|           the physicians, Socrates.~SOCRATES: And to whom do we go with
457  Gorg|            To the judges, you mean.~SOCRATES: —Who are to punish them?~
458  Gorg|            punish them?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And do not those who rightly
459  Gorg|            justice?~POLUS: Clearly.~SOCRATES: Then the art of money-making
460  Gorg|             POLUS: That is evident.~SOCRATES: Which, then, is the best
461  Gorg|            Will you enumerate them?~SOCRATES: Money-making, medicine,
462  Gorg|            justice.~POLUS: Justice, Socrates, far excels the two others.~
463  Gorg|          far excels the two others.~SOCRATES: And justice, if the best,
464  Gorg|      advantage or both?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: But is the being healed
465  Gorg|        pleased?~POLUS: I think not.~SOCRATES: A useful thing, then?~POLUS:
466  Gorg|            thing, then?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Yes, because the patient
467  Gorg|             well?~POLUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And would he be the happier
468  Gorg|            was never out of health.~SOCRATES: Yes; for happiness surely
469  Gorg|       having had them.~POLUS: True.~SOCRATES: And suppose the case of
470  Gorg|       Clearly he who is not healed.~SOCRATES: And was not punishment
471  Gorg|         which is vice?~POLUS: True.~SOCRATES: And justice punishes us,
472  Gorg|           of our vice?~POLUS: True.~SOCRATES: He, then, has the first
473  Gorg|           of evils.~POLUS: Clearly.~SOCRATES: And he has the second place,
474  Gorg|             from vice?~POLUS: True.~SOCRATES: That is to say, he who
475  Gorg|             punishment?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Then he lives worst, who,
476  Gorg|        injustice?~POLUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: That is, he lives worst
477  Gorg|             Republic.)~POLUS: True.~SOCRATES: May not their way of proceeding,
478  Gorg|            case?~POLUS: Yes, truly.~SOCRATES: He would seem as if he
479  Gorg|         form?~POLUS: If you please.~SOCRATES: Is it not a fact that injustice,
480  Gorg|         POLUS: That is quite clear.~SOCRATES: And further, that to suffer
481  Gorg|             this evil?~POLUS: True.~SOCRATES: And not to suffer, is to
482  Gorg|    perpetuate the evil?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: To do wrong, then, is second
483  Gorg|           all?~POLUS: That is true.~SOCRATES: Well, and was not this
484  Gorg|            what I said?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And it has been proved
485  Gorg|             true?~POLUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Well, Polus, but if this
486  Gorg|            great evil?~POLUS: True.~SOCRATES: And if he, or any one about
487  Gorg|          with them?~POLUS: To that, Socrates, there can be but one answer.~
488  Gorg|        there can be but one answer.~SOCRATES: Then rhetoric is of no
489  Gorg|              to that?~POLUS: To me, Socrates, what you are saying appears
490  Gorg|       agreement with your premises.~SOCRATES: Is not this the conclusion,
491  Gorg|        POLUS: Yes; it certainly is.~SOCRATES: And from the opposite point
492  Gorg|             Tell me, Chaerephon, is Socrates in earnest, or is he joking?~
493  Gorg|          gods, and I will. Tell me, Socrates, are you in earnest, or
494  Gorg|          what we ought to be doing?~SOCRATES: O Callicles, if there were
495  Gorg|     contradict myself.~CALLICLES: O Socrates, you are a regular declaimer,
496  Gorg|          stopped. For the truth is, Socrates, that you, who pretend to
497  Gorg|             things: for philosophy, Socrates, if pursued in moderation
498  Gorg|            should like to beat him, Socrates; for, as I was saying, such
499  Gorg|         satisfactory manner. Now I, Socrates, am very well inclined towards
500  Gorg|           to his brother, that you, Socrates, are careless about the