Dialogue

501  Gorg|            not be offended, my dear Socrates, for I am speaking out of
502  Gorg|          penalty of death. And yet, Socrates, what is the value of~‘An
503  Gorg|          honour, who is well to do.~SOCRATES: If my soul, Callicles,
504  Gorg|    CALLICLES: What is your meaning, Socrates?~SOCRATES: I will tell you;
505  Gorg|             your meaning, Socrates?~SOCRATES: I will tell you; I think
506  Gorg|         touchstone.~CALLICLES: Why?~SOCRATES: Because I am sure that
507  Gorg|        saying, and so I still aver.~SOCRATES: And do you mean by the
508  Gorg|             that they are the same.~SOCRATES: Then the many are by nature
509  Gorg|         laws?~CALLICLES: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Then the laws of the many
510  Gorg|     superior?~CALLICLES: Very true.~SOCRATES: Then they are the laws
511  Gorg|             saying?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And since they are superior,
512  Gorg|        nature good?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And are not the many of
513  Gorg|           the many is what you say.~SOCRATES: Then not only custom but
514  Gorg|      talking nonsense. At your age, Socrates, are you not ashamed to
515  Gorg|           ipsissima verba are laws?~SOCRATES: Ho! my philosopher, is
516  Gorg|         line?~CALLICLES: Certainly.~SOCRATES: I was thinking, Callicles,
517  Gorg|        CALLICLES: You are ironical.~SOCRATES: No, by the hero Zethus,
518  Gorg|            mean the more excellent.~SOCRATES: Do you not see that you
519  Gorg|     assuredly, I do mean the wiser.~SOCRATES: Then according to you,
520  Gorg|             more than the inferior.~SOCRATES: Stop there, and let me
521  Gorg|         food?~CALLICLES: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Either, then, he will have
522  Gorg|            am not speaking of them.~SOCRATES: Well, but do you admit
523  Gorg|            or ‘No.’~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And ought not the better
524  Gorg|            Not of meats and drinks.~SOCRATES: I understand: then, perhaps,
525  Gorg|       CALLICLES: Fudge about coats!~SOCRATES: Then the skilfullest and
526  Gorg|           nonsense are you talking?~SOCRATES: Or, if this is not your
527  Gorg|            talking in the same way, Socrates!~SOCRATES: Yes, Callicles,
528  Gorg|             the same way, Socrates!~SOCRATES: Yes, Callicles, and also
529  Gorg|            to do with our argument.~SOCRATES: But why will you not tell
530  Gorg|            faint from want of soul.~SOCRATES: See now, most excellent
531  Gorg|           more than their subjects.~SOCRATES: But whether rulers or subjects
532  Gorg|        CALLICLES: What do you mean?~SOCRATES: I mean that every man is
533  Gorg|          his ‘ruling over himself’?~SOCRATES: A simple thing enough;
534  Gorg|         those fools,—the temperate?~SOCRATES: Certainly:—any one may
535  Gorg|       meaning.~CALLICLES: Quite so, Socrates; and they are really fools,
536  Gorg|             ruler in his city? Nay, Socrates, for you profess to be a
537  Gorg|          worth. (Compare Republic.)~SOCRATES: There is a noble freedom,
538  Gorg|       virtue?~CALLICLES: Yes; I do.~SOCRATES: Then those who want nothing
539  Gorg|             be the happiest of all.~SOCRATES: But surely life according
540  Gorg|              CALLICLES: The latter, Socrates, is more like the truth.~
541  Gorg|             is more like the truth.~SOCRATES: Well, I will tell you another
542  Gorg|             You do not convince me, Socrates, for the one who has filled
543  Gorg|       superabundance of the influx.~SOCRATES: But the more you pour in,
544  Gorg|       escape.~CALLICLES: Certainly.~SOCRATES: The life which you are
545  Gorg|             eating?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And he is to be thirsting
546  Gorg|          the gratification of them.~SOCRATES: Capital, excellent; go
547  Gorg|            a strange being you are, Socrates! a regular mob-orator.~SOCRATES:
548  Gorg|     Socrates! a regular mob-orator.~SOCRATES: That was the reason, Callicles,
549  Gorg|    scratcher would live pleasantly.~SOCRATES: And if pleasantly, then
550  Gorg|              CALLICLES: To be sure.~SOCRATES: But what if the itching
551  Gorg|     CALLICLES: Are you not ashamed, Socrates, of introducing such topics
552  Gorg|           topics into the argument?~SOCRATES: Well, my fine friend, but
553  Gorg|             that they are the same.~SOCRATES: You are breaking the original
554  Gorg|             what you are doing too, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Then we are both
555  Gorg|            are doing too, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Then we are both doing
556  Gorg|            others.~CALLICLES: That, Socrates, is only your opinion.~SOCRATES:
557  Gorg|     Socrates, is only your opinion.~SOCRATES: And do you, Callicles,
558  Gorg|             CALLICLES: Indeed I do.~SOCRATES: Then, as you are in earnest,
559  Gorg|           am in profound earnest.’)~SOCRATES: Well, if you are willing
560  Gorg|     knowledge?~CALLICLES: There is.~SOCRATES: And were you not saying
561  Gorg|        knowledge?~CALLICLES: I was.~SOCRATES: And you were speaking of
562  Gorg|         CALLICLES: Certainly I was.~SOCRATES: And would you say that
563  Gorg|          the same, O man of wisdom.~SOCRATES: And would you say that
564  Gorg|     pleasure?~CALLICLES: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Well, then, let us remember
565  Gorg|            And what does our friend Socrates, of Foxton, say—does he
566  Gorg|             assent to this, or not?~SOCRATES: He does not assent; neither
567  Gorg|         each other?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And if they are opposed
568  Gorg|        CALLICLES: What do you mean?~SOCRATES: Take the case of any bodily
569  Gorg|              CALLICLES: To be sure.~SOCRATES: But he surely cannot have
570  Gorg|           CALLICLES: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: And when he has got rid
571  Gorg|           CALLICLES: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: That would surely be marvellous
572  Gorg|            absurd?~CALLICLES: Very.~SOCRATES: I suppose that he is affected
573  Gorg|           in turns?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And he may have strength
574  Gorg|            by fits?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: Or swiftness and slowness?~
575  Gorg|     slowness?~CALLICLES: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And does he have and not
576  Gorg|        CALLICLES: Certainly he has.~SOCRATES: If then there be anything
577  Gorg|        CALLICLES: I entirely agree.~SOCRATES: Go back now to our former
578  Gorg|             are hungry is pleasant.~SOCRATES: I know; but still the actual
579  Gorg|          not right?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And thirst, too, is painful?~
580  Gorg|      painful?~CALLICLES: Yes, very.~SOCRATES: Need I adduce any more
581  Gorg|          adduce any more instances.~SOCRATES: Very good. And you would
582  Gorg|           pleasant?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And in the sentence which
583  Gorg|       implies pain?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And the word ‘drinking’
584  Gorg|           the want?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: There is pleasure in drinking?~
585  Gorg|     drinking?~CALLICLES: Certainly.~SOCRATES: When you are thirsty?~SOCRATES:
586  Gorg|     SOCRATES: When you are thirsty?~SOCRATES: And in pain?~CALLICLES:
587  Gorg|            in pain?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: Do you see the inference:—
588  Gorg|             true?~CALLICLES: It is.~SOCRATES: You said also, that no
589  Gorg|              CALLICLES: Yes, I did.~SOCRATES: But you admitted, that
590  Gorg|       pleasure?~CALLICLES: Clearly.~SOCRATES: Then pleasure is not the
591  Gorg|           CALLICLES: I wish I knew, Socrates, what your quibbling means.~
592  Gorg|          what your quibbling means.~SOCRATES: You know, Callicles, but
593  Gorg|           in your admonition of me.~SOCRATES: Does not a man cease from
594  Gorg|            the habitual trifling of Socrates; he is always arguing about
595  Gorg|     Callicles, is not at stake. Let Socrates argue in his own fashion.~
596  Gorg|              CALLICLES: Well, then, Socrates, you shall ask these little
597  Gorg|        Gorgias wishes to have them.~SOCRATES: I envy you, Callicles,
598  Gorg|            moment?~CALLICLES: True.~SOCRATES: And if he is hungry, or
599  Gorg|       moment?~CALLICLES: Very true.~SOCRATES: Then he ceases from pain
600  Gorg|             moment?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: But he does not cease from
601  Gorg|          but what is the inference?~SOCRATES: Why, my friend, the inference
602  Gorg|          with them?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And do you call the fools
603  Gorg|           so?~CALLICLES: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And did you never see a
604  Gorg|             CALLICLES: Yes, I have.~SOCRATES: And a foolish man too?~
605  Gorg|             but what is your drift?~SOCRATES: Nothing particular, if
606  Gorg|             CALLICLES: Yes, I have.~SOCRATES: And did you ever see a
607  Gorg|          sorrowing?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: Which rejoice and sorrow
608  Gorg|             think, in that respect.~SOCRATES: Enough: And did you ever
609  Gorg|              CALLICLES: To be sure.~SOCRATES: And which rejoiced most
610  Gorg|             rejoiced about equally.~SOCRATES: No matter; then the cowards,
611  Gorg|        rejoice?~CALLICLES: Greatly.~SOCRATES: And the foolish; so it
612  Gorg|         would seem?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And are only the cowards
613  Gorg|         CALLICLES: Both are pained.~SOCRATES: And are they equally pained?~
614  Gorg|            cowards are more pained.~SOCRATES: And are they not better
615  Gorg|              CALLICLES: I dare say.~SOCRATES: Then are the foolish and
616  Gorg|          the brave?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: But surely the wise and
617  Gorg|            the bad?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: Then the good and the bad
618  Gorg|             degree?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: Then are the good and bad
619  Gorg|             not know what you mean.~SOCRATES: Why, do you not remember
620  Gorg|         CALLICLES: Yes, I remember.~SOCRATES: And are not these pleasures
621  Gorg|      rejoice?~CALLICLES: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Then those who rejoice
622  Gorg|          with them?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And those who are in pain
623  Gorg|          with them?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And would you still say
624  Gorg|          evil?~CALLICLES: I should.~SOCRATES: Then those who rejoice
625  Gorg|          pain evil?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: The degrees of good and
626  Gorg|            of pain?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: Have the wise man and the
627  Gorg|             should say that he has.~SOCRATES: Help me then to draw out
628  Gorg|            be good?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And the foolish man and
629  Gorg|         evil?~CALLICLES: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And he who has joy is good?~
630  Gorg|            is good?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And he who is in pain is
631  Gorg|         evil?~CALLICLES: Certainly.~SOCRATES: The good and evil both
632  Gorg|            of them?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: Then must we not infer,
633  Gorg|           making admissions to you, Socrates; and I remark that if a
634  Gorg|            are good and others bad?~SOCRATES: Alas, Callicles, how unfair
635  Gorg|        others evil?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: The beneficial are good,
636  Gorg|              CALLICLES: To be sure.~SOCRATES: And the beneficial are
637  Gorg|          some evil?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: Take, for example, the
638  Gorg|         evil?~CALLICLES: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And in the same way there
639  Gorg|              CALLICLES: To be sure.~SOCRATES: And ought we not to choose
640  Gorg|        pains?~CALLICLES: Certainly.~SOCRATES: But not the evil?~CALLICLES:
641  Gorg|           evil?~CALLICLES: Clearly.~SOCRATES: Because, if you remember,
642  Gorg|             two?~CALLICLES: I will.~SOCRATES: Then pleasure, like everything
643  Gorg|              CALLICLES: To be sure.~SOCRATES: But can every man choose
644  Gorg|        CALLICLES: He must have art.~SOCRATES: Let me now remind you of
645  Gorg|            CALLICLES: No, I do not.~SOCRATES: Then I will explain myself
646  Gorg|             agree?~CALLICLES: I do.~SOCRATES: Then I will proceed, and
647  Gorg|           oblige my friend Gorgias.~SOCRATES: And is this notion true
648  Gorg|        Equally true of two or more.~SOCRATES: Then a man may delight
649  Gorg|          interests?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: Can you tell me the pursuits
650  Gorg|          else?~CALLICLES: I assent.~SOCRATES: And is not the same true
651  Gorg|          festivals?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And what do you say of
652  Gorg|             mistake about Cinesias, Socrates.~SOCRATES: And what do you
653  Gorg|           about Cinesias, Socrates.~SOCRATES: And what do you say of
654  Gorg|          That is my notion of them.~SOCRATES: And as for the Muse of
655  Gorg|              There can be no doubt, Socrates, that Tragedy has her face
656  Gorg|      gratification of the audience.~SOCRATES: And is not that the sort
657  Gorg|              CALLICLES: Quite true.~SOCRATES: Well now, suppose that
658  Gorg|              CALLICLES: To be sure.~SOCRATES: And this speech is addressed
659  Gorg|             people?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: Then poetry is a sort of
660  Gorg|          rhetoric?~CALLICLES: True.~SOCRATES: And do not the poets in
661  Gorg|       rhetoricians?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: Then now we have discovered
662  Gorg|              CALLICLES: Quite true.~SOCRATES: Very good. And what do
663  Gorg|           are such as you describe.~SOCRATES: I am contented with the
664  Gorg|          who are at present living.~SOCRATES: Well, then, can you mention
665  Gorg|            whom you heard yourself?~SOCRATES: Yes, Callicles, they were
666  Gorg|    CALLICLES: No, indeed, I cannot.~SOCRATES: Yet, surely, Callicles,
667  Gorg|             I am ready to admit it.~SOCRATES: Then the house in which
668  Gorg|     disorder, evil?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And the same is true of
669  Gorg|             a ship?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And the same may be said
670  Gorg|         human body?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And what would you say
671  Gorg|            our previous admissions.~SOCRATES: What is the name which
672  Gorg|           mean health and strength?~SOCRATES: Yes, I do; and what is
673  Gorg|             give the name yourself, Socrates?~SOCRATES: Well, if you
674  Gorg|            name yourself, Socrates?~SOCRATES: Well, if you had rather
675  Gorg|            or not?~CALLICLES: True.~SOCRATES: And ‘lawful’ and ‘law’
676  Gorg|            not?~CALLICLES: Granted.~SOCRATES: And will not the true rhetorician
677  Gorg|          agree?~CALLICLES: I agree.~SOCRATES: For what use is there,
678  Gorg|            I will not say No to it.~SOCRATES: For in my opinion there
679  Gorg|          not right?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: When a man is in health
680  Gorg|         admit that?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And does not the same argument
681  Gorg|        improvement.~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: Such treatment will be
682  Gorg|              CALLICLES: To be sure.~SOCRATES: And to restrain her from
683  Gorg|       chastise her?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: Then restraint or chastisement
684  Gorg|            I do not understand you, Socrates, and I wish that you would
685  Gorg|        would ask some one who does.~SOCRATES: Here is a gentleman who
686  Gorg|             of civility to Gorgias.~SOCRATES: What are we to do, then?
687  Gorg|           shall judge for yourself.~SOCRATES: Well, but people say that ‘
688  Gorg|             How tyrannical you are, Socrates! I wish that you and your
689  Gorg|             else to argue with you.~SOCRATES: But who else is willing?—
690  Gorg|             and answering yourself?~SOCRATES: Must I then say with Epicharmus, ‘
691  Gorg|             ways.~GORGIAS: I think, Socrates, that we should not go our
692  Gorg|          what more you have to say.~SOCRATES: I too, Gorgias, should
693  Gorg|          never mind me, but get on.~SOCRATES: Listen to me, then, while
694  Gorg|              Go on, my good fellow.~SOCRATES: Then I shall proceed to
695  Gorg|        CALLICLES: Yes, quite right.~SOCRATES: Seeing then that there
696  Gorg|           the power; that is clear.~SOCRATES: And what do you say of
697  Gorg|           will?~CALLICLES: Granted, Socrates, if you will only have done.~
698  Gorg|            you will only have done.~SOCRATES: Then, as would appear,
699  Gorg|    injustice?~CALLICLES: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And what art will protect
700  Gorg|        power.~CALLICLES: Well said, Socrates; and please to observe how
701  Gorg|            you when you talk sense.~SOCRATES: Think and tell me whether
702  Gorg|          this?~CALLICLES: I should.~SOCRATES: But when the tyrant is
703  Gorg|            CALLICLES: That is true.~SOCRATES: Neither will he be the
704  Gorg|      CALLICLES: That again is true.~SOCRATES: Then the only friend worth
705  Gorg|            that so?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And if a young man begins
706  Gorg|           possible?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And in this way he will
707  Gorg|       injury?~CALLICLES: Very true.~SOCRATES: But will he also escape
708  Gorg|          punished?~CALLICLES: True.~SOCRATES: And by the imitation of
709  Gorg|          contrive somehow or other, Socrates, to invert everything: do
710  Gorg|            and take away his goods?~SOCRATES: Excellent Callicles, I
711  Gorg|           just the provoking thing?~SOCRATES: Nay, not to a man of sense,
712  Gorg|           and very good advice too.~SOCRATES: Well, my friend, but what
713  Gorg|              CALLICLES: No, indeed.~SOCRATES: And yet surely swimming
714  Gorg|        Somehow or other your words, Socrates, always appear to me to
715  Gorg|            Compare Symp.: 1 Alcib.)~SOCRATES: The reason is, Callicles,
716  Gorg|         drew?~CALLICLES: Very true.~SOCRATES: And the one which had pleasure
717  Gorg|            so, if you will have it.~SOCRATES: And the other had in view
718  Gorg|              CALLICLES: Quite true.~SOCRATES: And must we not have the
719  Gorg|             certainly, if you like.~SOCRATES: Well, then, if you and
720  Gorg|         Callicles?~CALLICLES: True.~SOCRATES: In the second place, we
721  Gorg|         true?~CALLICLES: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And does not the same hold
722  Gorg|             me, Well, but how about Socrates himself, has he good health?
723  Gorg|             thing?~CALLICLES: True.~SOCRATES: And now, my friend, as
724  Gorg|     CALLICLES: You are contentious, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Nay, I ask you,
725  Gorg|          are contentious, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Nay, I ask you, not from
726  Gorg|          citizens.~CALLICLES: I do.~SOCRATES: But if they were good,
727  Gorg|           of worse?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And, therefore, when Pericles
728  Gorg|             CALLICLES: Very likely.~SOCRATES: Nay, my friend, ‘likely’
729  Gorg|          difference does that make?~SOCRATES: None; only I should like
730  Gorg|          CALLICLES: You heard that, Socrates, from the laconising set
731  Gorg|          set who bruise their ears.~SOCRATES: But what I am going to
732  Gorg|            prove Pericles’ badness?~SOCRATES: Why, surely you would say
733  Gorg|             favour of saying ‘yes.’~SOCRATES: And will you also do me
734  Gorg|         CALLICLES: Certainly he is.~SOCRATES: And was not Pericles a
735  Gorg|             of men?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And if he was a good political
736  Gorg|              CALLICLES: Quite true.~SOCRATES: And are not just men gentle,
737  Gorg|           mind?~CALLICLES: I agree.~SOCRATES: And yet he really did make
738  Gorg|          want me to agree with you?~SOCRATES: Yes, if I seem to you to
739  Gorg|            CALLICLES: Granted then.~SOCRATES: And if they were more savage,
740  Gorg|           CALLICLES: Granted again.~SOCRATES: Then upon this view, Pericles
741  Gorg|            That is, upon your view.~SOCRATES: Nay, the view is yours,
742  Gorg|      CALLICLES: I should think not.~SOCRATES: Well, but if so, the truth
743  Gorg|              CALLICLES: But surely, Socrates, no living man ever came
744  Gorg|           them in his performances.~SOCRATES: O, my dear friend, I say
745  Gorg|        there is some one to answer?~SOCRATES: I suppose that I can; just
746  Gorg|           Yes, it appears so to me.~SOCRATES: Do you never hear our professors
747  Gorg|           who are good for nothing?~SOCRATES: I would rather say, why
748  Gorg|         CALLICLES: Certainly it is.~SOCRATES: If they were right in saying
749  Gorg|    injustice.~CALLICLES: Very true.~SOCRATES: And he who removes injustice
750  Gorg|            Protag.)~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: Then we have found the
751  Gorg|           we have found the reason.~SOCRATES: But when the point is,
752  Gorg|     dishonourable?~CALLICLES: True.~SOCRATES: And why? Because only such
753  Gorg|             true?~CALLICLES: It is.~SOCRATES: Then to which service of
754  Gorg|           the servant of the State.~SOCRATES: The flatterer? well, sir,
755  Gorg|              CALLICLES: The Mysian, Socrates, or what you please. For
756  Gorg|           the consequences will be—~SOCRATES: Do not repeat the old story—
757  Gorg|              How confident you are, Socrates, that you will never come
758  Gorg|          miserable and mean person.~SOCRATES: Then I must indeed be a
759  Gorg|            CALLICLES: By all means.~SOCRATES: I think that I am the only
760  Gorg|              CALLICLES: I dare say.~SOCRATES: Would he not be utterly
761  Gorg|      CALLICLES: He certainly would.~SOCRATES: And I too shall be treated
762  Gorg|        CALLICLES: And do you think, Socrates, that a man who is thus
763  Gorg|  defenceless is in a good position?~SOCRATES: Yes, Callicles, if he have
764  Gorg|            then we shall have done.~SOCRATES: Listen, then, as story-tellers