Book
1 1 | comes, I believe they would say that Apollo is their lawgiver:
2 1 | these institutions, I dare say that you will not be unwilling
3 1 | could any Lacedaemonian say anything else?~Athenian.
4 1 | Athenian. And is what you say applicable only to states,
5 1 | own enemy:—what shall we say?~Cleinias. O Athenian Stranger—
6 1 | his own inferior, may we say that there is the same principle
7 1 | understand your meaning when you say that citizens who are of
8 1 | laws.~Cleinias. What you say, Stranger, is most true.~
9 1 | necessity; a man might as well say that the body was in the
10 1 | Lacedaemonian.~Athenian. I dare say; but there is no reason
11 1 | most divine poet, we will say to him, the excellent praise
12 1 | of war; or what would you say? A far inferior man to Tyrtaeus
13 1 | expressions of yours in which you say that you abominate those~
14 1 | shall naturally go on to say to him—You, Tyrtaeus, as
15 1 | Athenian. They are good; but we say that there are still better
16 1 | Cleinias. What ought we to say then?~Athenian. What truth
17 1 | wax?~Megillus. I should say the latter.~Athenian. In
18 1 | pain?~Cleinias. I should say the man who is overcome
19 1 | Able to meet both, I should say.~Athenian. Then let me once
20 1 | Stranger, and we will do as you say.~Athenian. At our time of
21 1 | either of you what the many say about them. For assuming
22 1 | of the legislator, and to say what is most true.~Athenian.
23 1 | however, I am not going to say anything against your laws
24 1 | first hearing, what you say appears to be the truth;
25 1 | to answer; still I should say that the common meals and
26 1 | another; and we can hardly say that any one course of treatment
27 1 | and I hardly know what to say in answer to you; but still
28 1 | countrymen, for they, as you say, altogether abstain? But
29 1 | my good friend, do not say that; there have been, as
30 1 | and therefore we cannot say that victory or defeat in
31 1 | institution in itself and say nothing, at present, of
32 1 | and defeats. Let us only say that such and such a custom
33 1 | disputed by us. Now I cannot say that I shall be satisfied,
34 1 | sick or not? What do you say?~Megillus. I say that he
35 1 | do you say?~Megillus. I say that he is not a good captain
36 1 | Athenian. And what would you say of the commander of an army?
37 1 | Athenian. And what would you say of some one who blames or
38 1 | to suppose that what they say is of any value?~Megillus.
39 1 | wherever I went, as I may say, and never did I see or
40 1 | Explain; For we, as you say, from our inexperience in
41 1 | all this. What would you say then to leaving these matters
42 1 | Athenians, they used to say to me—”See, Megillus, how
43 1 | I shall like to hear you say whatever you have to say.~
44 1 | say whatever you have to say.~Cleinias. Yes, Stranger;
45 1 | you have heard me speak, say boldly what is in your thoughts.
46 1 | Athenian. And what would you say about the body, my friend?
47 1 | thought evil, because we do or say some dishonourable thing,
48 1 | courage? Might we not go and say to him, “O legislator, whether
49 1 | return to the lawgiver, and say to him:—”Well, lawgiver,
50 1 | I suppose that he will say, Yes—meaning that wine is
51 1 | respect, and is ready to do or say anything.~Cleinias. I think
52 1 | possible, and to be afraid to say or suffer or do anything
53 2 | perceptions of children, and I say that they are the forms
54 2 | declining in years; and we may say that he who possesses them,
55 2 | to nature or not. For men say that the young of all creatures
56 2 | us, the Gods, who, as we say, have been appointed to
57 2 | and the Muses? What do you say?~Cleinias. I assent.~Athenian.
58 2 | not to be tedious, let us say that the figures and melodies
59 2 | character. And yet most persons say, that the excellence of
60 2 | pleased at another. For they say that all these imitations
61 2 | not the word, but I would say, rather, “I am certain.”
62 2 | Athenian. I should rather say, How statesmanlike, how
63 2 | May we not confidently say that the true use of music
64 2 | altogether unmeaning to say, as the common people do
65 2 | as the aged—in order, I say, to produce this effect,
66 2 | you compel your poets to say that the good man, if he
67 2 | immortal. But you and I say, that while to the just
68 2 | Cleinias. How can I possibly say so?~Athenian. How! Then
69 2 | land who should dare to say that there are bad men who
70 2 | Lacedaemonians of this age, and I may say, indeed, from the world
71 2 | them, and suppose him to say again that he who leads
72 2 | from pleasure? Shall we say that glory and fame, coming
73 2 | legislator. Or shall we say that the not–doing of wrong
74 2 | Cleinias. I assent to what you say.~Athenian. First will enter
75 2 | understand what you mean to say about them.~Athenian. And
76 2 | and Dionysus, as I dare say that you will remember,
77 2 | ashamed to sing—I do not say before a large audience,
78 2 | chorus.~Athenian. I dare say; for you have never acquired
79 2 | impart it to those who, as we say, are ashamed of these, and
80 2 | them;—for example, I should say that eating and drinking,
81 2 | Athenian. Thus, too, I should say that learning has a certain
82 2 | Very true; and may we not say that in everything imitated,
83 2 | within him, and he will say anything and will be restrained
84 2 | Athenian. And did we not say that the sense of harmony
85 2 | understand and accept what you say not only as an answer, but
86 2 | understand me; do as you say.~Athenian. I will; and there
87 2 | Cleinias. What more have you to say?~Athenian. I should say
88 2 | say?~Athenian. I should say that if a city seriously
89 2 | wine, so that if what I say is true, no city will need
90 3 | it?~Athenian. I mean to say that those who then escaped
91 3 | entirely lost, as I may say, with the loss of the arts,
92 3 | respects, would they not, I say, be simpler and more manly,
93 3 | Lacedaemon; which, as you truly say, is in laws and in institutions
94 3 | Athenian. Many persons say that legislators ought to
95 3 | to the same point, and I say once more, in jest if you
96 3 | Cleinias; let us do as you say.~Cleinias. By all means,
97 3 | same train of thought, I say that the greatest ignorance
98 3 | me in what I am about to say; for my opinion is—~Cleinias.
99 3 | Athenian. “Then now,” as we say playfully to any of those
100 3 | easily know and may easily say what ought to have been
101 3 | child of excess. I mean to say, my dear friends, that there
102 3 | indeed, can we rightly say that Hellas repelled the
103 3 | should consider when we say that temperance is to be
104 3 | Cleinias. What makes you say so?~Athenian. I think that
105 3 | Might we not most justly say: “O Darius, how came you
106 3 | thus educated. And this, I say, is what the legislator
107 3 | really last, may we not say, that he or the state is
108 3 | arguments have good deal to say for themselves.~Megillus.
109 3 | laws about music—that is to say, such music as then existed—
110 4 | that.~Athenian. You mean to say that there is more rock
111 4 | near, especially if, as you say, the harbours are so good.
112 4 | dishonourable, as people say, at certain times. This
113 4 | barbarians. But Megillus and I say rather, that the battle
114 4 | them no better, if I may say so without offence about
115 4 | and pull together, as they say of horses, is a most difficult
116 4 | should like to know why you say so.~Athenian. My good friend,
117 4 | speculations is leading me to say something depreciatory of
118 4 | Athenian. I was going to say that man never legislates,
119 4 | there also; for I should say that in a storm there must
120 4 | Come, legislator,” we will say to him; “what are the conditions
121 4 | Yes.~Athenian. He will say—”Give me a state which is
122 4 | You would assume, as you say, a tyrant who was young,
123 4 | number.~Cleinias. You mean to say, I suppose, that the best
124 4 | Not so; I mean rather to say that the change is best
125 4 | Cleinias. No, and I cannot say that I have any great desire
126 4 | I perceive that I cannot say, without more thought, what
127 4 | sudden, I cannot precisely say which form of government
128 4 | the point at issue. Men say that the law ought not to
129 4 | I will:—”Surely,” they say, “the governing power makes
130 4 | are simply unmeaning. I say this, because I am going
131 4 | Athenian. “Friends,” we say to them,—”God, as the old
132 4 | the guide of others, he, I say, is left deserted of God;
133 4 | not man, as men commonly say (Protagoras): the words
134 4 | own life—these things, I say, the laws, as we proceed
135 4 | with the legislator, and say to him—”O, legislator, speak;
136 4 | you know what we ought to say and do, you can surely tell.”~
137 4 | legislator must not barely say “a moderate funeral,” but
138 4 | preface to his laws, but to say at once Do this, avoid that—
139 4 | remedies. What I mean to say is, that besides doctors
140 4 | inferior?~Cleinias. I should say, Stranger, that the double
141 4 | his command, that is to say, the law. And therefore,
142 4 | argument, and, as people say in play, make a second and
143 5 | may like. But I mean to say that in acting thus he injures
144 5 | virtue. In a word, I may say that he who does not estimate
145 5 | man; for no one, as I may say, ever considers that which
146 5 | such men by nature do and say to one another—a suffering
147 5 | poured out; wherefore I say that good men ought, when
148 5 | is departing. Therefore I say that a man should refrain
149 5 | we wish for any others, I say that we desire them only
150 5 | them a law, choosing, I say, the dear and the pleasant
151 5 | happiest way possible? Let us say that the temperate life
152 5 | pleasant life. And we should say that the temperate life
153 5 | us, and yet we had better say how, if we had not escaped,
154 5 | this is possible or not, I say that no man, acting upon
155 5 | Wherefore our citizens, as we say, should have a coin passing
156 5 | and slight. Therefore we say that gold and silver ought
157 5 | heart what I am going to say. Once more, then, the legislator
158 5 | O my friends,” he will say to us, “do not suppose me
159 5 | excellent, and I will do as you say.~ ~
160 6 | let us stop a little and say a word in season about the
161 6 | Cleinias. What have you got to say?~Athenian. This is what
162 6 | This is what I have to say; every one can see, that
163 6 | elections of the state; I say, if this could be accomplished,
164 6 | of the Cretans, I shall say to them, inasmuch as the
165 6 | Cnosians themselves. These, I say, on their arrival, should
166 6 | the one part by those who say he has no skill, and defended
167 6 | other hand by those who say that he has. Ten are to
168 6 | also of men. Man, as we say, is a tame or civilized
169 6 | also as magistrates, let us say who are fit to be judges,
170 6 | should finish what he has to say, and not leave the work
171 6 | course.~Athenian. We will say to them—O friends and saviours
172 6 | Athenian. I thank you. We will say to him who is born of good
173 6 | already spoken; and again I say for the instruction of poor
174 6 | give them increase, who can say? Moreover, they ought not
175 6 | is not right; for what we say about our slaves is consistent
176 6 | Athenian. But may we not also say that the soul of the slave
177 6 | many. Still I cannot but say what appears to me to be
178 6 | order in all things; he, I say, who gives up the control
179 6 | into the fire,” as people say, or performing any other
180 6 | to hear what you have to say.~Athenian. Very good; and
181 6 | Athenian. Some one might say to us, What is the drift
182 6 | contrary of esteem—that is to say, disesteem. Now, if the
183 7 | sake of health, that is to say, not their own, health,
184 7 | True.~Athenian. And we may say that the use of exercise
185 7 | rightly ascribe to God. Now, I say, he among men, too, who
186 7 | to be ridiculous, I would say that a woman during her
187 7 | ones.~Athenian. Now we must say what has yet to be said
188 7 | although you have heard me say the same before that caution
189 7 | Cleinias. What have you to say, Stranger?~Athenian. I say
190 7 | say, Stranger?~Athenian. I say that in states generally
191 7 | special honour, we may truly say that no greater evil can
192 7 | disposed to receive what you say not unfavourably but most
193 7 | characters in men? What say you?~Cleinias. That is the
194 7 | with others, and he will say to himself and them, “Which
195 7 | be confident that we can say anything certain all in
196 7 | burnt according to law—if, I say, any one who may be a son
197 7 | type, and model—What do you say?~Cleinias. Let it be so,
198 7 | Certainly.~Athenian. I say that about serious matters
199 7 | pursuits. And therefore, as we say, every one of us should
200 7 | what you would next wish to say.~Athenian. I should wish
201 7 | Athenian. I should wish to say, Cleinias, as I said before,
202 7 | legislators, but I must say what I think. The legislator
203 7 | to what I am now going to say:—We were telling you, in
204 7 | of the lyre. But now we say that he ought to attend
205 7 | Athenian. And I do not faint; I say, indeed, that we have a
206 7 | bad imitation, that is to say, the imitation of the good
207 7 | if not, it is not meet to say, nor do we say, what will
208 7 | not meet to say, nor do we say, what will follow, lest
209 7 | limbs of the body—that, I say, is the true sort; but the
210 7 | those in which, as they say, they imitate drunken men,
211 7 | may not in ignorance do or say anything which is ridiculous
212 7 | tragedy, come to us and say—”O strangers, may we go
213 7 | Best of strangers, we will say to them, we also according
214 7 | constrains us, against which we say that no God contends, or
215 7 | Hellenes.~Cleinias. About what? Say, Stranger, what you mean.~
216 7 | Yes.~Athenian. That is to say, length is naturally commensurable
217 7 | compatriots; and might we not say to them:—O ye best of Hellenes,
218 7 | draughts.~Cleinias. I dare say; and these pastimes are
219 7 | of another mind, let him say what he has to say.~Cleinias.
220 7 | let him say what he has to say.~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian.
221 7 | referring?~Athenian. Men say that we ought not to enquire
222 7 | what nature?~Athenian. We say that they and divers other
223 7 | quickest. And if what I say is true, only just imagine
224 7 | than ludicrous, I should say.~Athenian. At all events,
225 7 | welfare: O friends, we will say to them, may no desire or
226 7 | poisonous juices. And now we may say that all our enactments
227 8 | is omitted. The law will say that there are twelve feasts
228 8 | Cleinias. Proceed.~Athenian. I say that governments are a cause—
229 8 | legislation; they shall say who deserves to be victor
230 8 | But we have nothing to say to the unarmed either in
231 8 | plainness of speech, and will say outright what he thinks
232 8 | to a principle which we say that a legislator should
233 8 | should hinder? What do you say, friend Megillus?~Megillus.
234 8 | mastered?~Cleinias. I dare say.~Athenian. And since we
235 8 | compact:—surely, we will say to them, you should be better
236 9 | names, we will proceed to say what punishments are to
237 9 | in a state which, as we say, is to be well regulated
238 9 | exhortation:—O sir, we will say to him, the impulse which
239 9 | them the law has nothing to say. But to him who is disobedient
240 9 | Cleinias. What makes you say, Stranger, that a theft
241 9 | rightly worked out, as I may say in passing.—Do you remember
242 9 | a hearty laugh—he would say what most of those who are
243 9 | Foolish fellow, he would say, you are not healing the
244 9 | together. And we may truly say that some of our laws, like
245 9 | Excellent; let us do as you say.~Athenian. Then we will
246 9 | their minds, no one would say that there was any inconsistency
247 9 | Cleinias, and you, Megillus, say to me—Well, Stranger, if
248 9 | Stranger, if all this be as you say, how about legislating for
249 9 | Stranger; and what shall we say in answer to these objections?~
250 9 | certain: either we must not say that all unjust acts are
251 9 | wrong in what I am going to say; for I deny, Cleinias and
252 9 | injury. But I should rather say that such a hurt, whether
253 9 | Athenian. A man may truly say that ignorance is a third
254 9 | one was ever yet heard to say that one of us is superior
255 9 | than do this—how can he, I say, lawfully receive any other
256 9 | learned in the mysteries: they say that such deeds will be
257 9 | who of all men, as they say, is his own best friend?
258 9 | regarded.~And now let us say in what cases and under
259 9 | turn this or that orator—I say that then there is a very
260 10| Cleinias. What shall we say or do to these persons?~
261 10| Gods, while others, as you say, are of opinion that they
262 10| friend, though I will not say that I much regard, the
263 10| ancients I have nothing more to say; and I should wish to say
264 10| say; and I should wish to say of them only what is pleasing
265 10| aforesaid philosophers we should say that they are earth and
266 10| Well, then; what shall we say or do?—Shall we assume that
267 10| legislation; and that they say of us—How dreadful that
268 10| and when they force us to say what we are now saying,
269 10| anger:—O my son, we will say to him, you are young, and
270 10| all means.~Athenian. They say that the greatest and fairest
271 10| still more clearly. They say that fire and water, and
272 10| action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from
273 10| and gymnastic. And they say that politics cooperate
274 10| friend, these people would say that the Gods exist not
275 10| proclaiming that if they will not say and think that the Gods
276 10| not scattered, as I may say, throughout the world, there
277 10| who use the term mean to say that nature is the first
278 10| fair proposal? I mean to say that the argument in prospect
279 10| places than one?” You mean to say, we shall rejoin, that those
280 10| efficient?~Cleinias. I must say that the motion which is
281 10| Athenian. Then we must say that self–motion being the
282 10| itself?~Cleinias. You mean to say that the essence which is
283 10| absolute truth, when we say that the soul is prior to
284 10| however moving, must we not say that she orders also the
285 10| doubt.~Athenian. Shall we say then that it is the soul
286 10| Athenian. If, my friend, we say that the whole path and
287 10| then, as is plain, we must say that the best soul takes
288 10| and seasons, must we not say in like manner, that since
289 10| or, if he be not able to say anything better, then he
290 10| Athenian. Then to them we will say no more. And now we are
291 10| human affairs: To him we say—O thou best of men, in believing
292 10| Cleinias. Very good; do as you say, and we will help you as
293 10| to them. Surely we should say that to be temperate and
294 10| himself hates?—he who dares to say this sort of thing must
295 10| two of them, and we will say to them—In the first place,
296 10| the great;—as the builders say, the larger stones do not
297 10| offer him?~Athenian. Let us say to the youth:—The ruler
298 10| into the abyss, that is to say, into Hades and other places
299 10| take heed of you. If you say:—I am small and will creep
300 10| that you know not what you say of the Gods, then will God
301 10| more, listen to what we say to the third opponent, if
302 10| Very good; let us do as you say.~Athenian. Well, then, by
303 10| Athenian. What else can he say who declares that the Gods
304 10| without absurdity? Will he say that they are like pilots,
305 10| Athenian. And shall we say that those who guard our
306 10| sufficiently demonstrated? May we say that they are?~Cleinias.
307 10| souls of the living and say that they can conjure the
308 11| down by thee”—of him, I say, who despises these two
309 11| compel, if I may venture to say a ridiculous thing, the
310 11| retail trade, that is to say, in respect of such of them
311 11| they should honour them, I say, in the second place; for
312 11| Athenian. O ye Gods, he will say, how monstrous that I am
313 11| and may he not very fairly say so?~Athenian. In my opinion,
314 11| have something better to say to our departing citizens.~
315 11| Athenian. O my friends, we will say to them, hard is it for
316 11| disposition—the father, say, shall forgive the legislator
317 11| mean?~Athenian. I mean to say, that a case may occur in
318 11| compel him to obey—that is to say, would not compel those
319 11| In the first place, we say that the guardians of the
320 11| and the offender himself—I say, if he obtains more than
321 11| years of age, that is to say, if they be men, or if they
322 11| appointed penalty. And we say now, that he who deals in
323 11| fixed; but we have still to say who are to be sanctioned
324 11| If the offenders obey we say no more; but those who disobey,
325 12| indictment in this form—he shall say that so–and–so is unworthy
326 12| one who has anything to say about the enactment of laws
327 12| their condition, as I may say truly again and again. And
328 12| fathers tell us; and they also say that not much can be done
329 12| to the council, I would say further, that if we let
330 12| about the body, that is to say, who knows not that which
331 12| Athenian. And what would you say of the state? If a person
332 12| power to be found? Can we say?~Cleinias. I am not quite
333 12| Megillus, and you, Cleinias, say distinctly what is the aim
334 12| them we call one; for we say that courage is virtue,
335 12| wise thoughts—that is to say, the old men—take counsel
336 12| true.~Athenian. Did we not say that the workman or guardian,
337 12| is certainly just, as you say, that he who is indolent
338 12| world, or rather, I should say, themselves; for the bodies
339 12| considered them, and I dare say that I shall be able to
340 12| chance of throwing, as they say, thrice six or thrice ace,
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