Book

  1 1 |          PERSONS OF THE DIALOGUE: An ATHENIAN STRANGER; CLEINIAS, a Cretan;
  2 1 |            MEGILLUS, a Lacedaemonian~Athenian Stranger. Tell me, Strangers,
  3 1 |       Megillus?~Megillus. Certainly.~Athenian. And do you, Cleinias, believe,
  4 1 |           justice when he was alive.~Athenian. Yes, and a noble reputation
  5 1 |             may repose and converse.~Athenian. Very good.~Cleinias. Very
  6 1 |             let us move on cheerily.~Athenian. I am willing—And first,
  7 1 |             hands of the conquerors.~Athenian. You appear to me, Stranger,
  8 1 |     Lacedaemonian say anything else?~Athenian. And is what you say applicable
  9 1 |             Cleinias. To both alike.~Athenian. The case is the same?~Cleinias.
 10 1 |             the same?~Cleinias. Yes.~Athenian. And in the village will
 11 1 |      individual?~Cleinias. The same.~Athenian. And should each man conceive
 12 1 |            shall we say?~Cleinias. O Athenian Stranger—inhabitant of Attica
 13 1 |              within every one of us.~Athenian. Let us now reverse the
 14 1 |              or inferiority to self?~Athenian. Yes.~Cleinias. You are
 15 1 |       censured in the opposite case.~Athenian. Whether the better is ever
 16 1 |             cannot possibly deny it.~Athenian. Here is another case for
 17 1 |             Cleinias. Very possibly.~Athenian. And you and I ought not
 18 1 |              as far as we have gone.~Athenian. Again; might there not
 19 1 |       speaking?~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. Now, which would be the
 20 1 |             of judge and legislator.~Athenian. And yet the aim of all
 21 1 |            war.~Cleinias. Very true.~Athenian. And will he who constitutes
 22 1 |              latter chiefly in view.~Athenian. And would he prefer that
 23 1 |           the case of his own state.~Athenian. And would not that also
 24 1 |     legislator?~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. And would not every one
 25 1 |          best?~Cleinias. To be sure.~Athenian. But war, whether external
 26 1 |           also of the Lacedaemonian.~Athenian. I dare say; but there is
 27 1 |             put forward Tyrtaeus, an Athenian by birth, but also a Spartan
 28 1 |            from Lacedaemon to Crete.~Athenian. Come now and let us all
 29 1 |               Certainly, far milder.~Athenian. Well, now, when you praise
 30 1 |           this.~Cleinias. Evidently.~Athenian. They are good; but we say
 31 1 |            which is far beneath him.~Athenian. Nay, I think that we degrade
 32 1 |           What ought we to say then?~Athenian. What truth and what justice
 33 1 |              Cleinias. By all means.~Athenian. You ought to have said,
 34 1 |          shall we proceed, Stranger?~Athenian. I think that we must begin
 35 1 |          Zeus and the laws of Crete.~Athenian. I will try to criticize
 36 1 |          view to war?~Megillus. Yes.~Athenian. And what comes third, and
 37 1 |           hunting is third in order.~Athenian. Let us see if we can discover
 38 1 |             detail would be endless.~Athenian. Excellent, O Lacedaemonian
 39 1 |             I should say the latter.~Athenian. In what preceded, as you
 40 1 |           Cleinias?~Cleinias. I was.~Athenian. Now, which is in the truest
 41 1 |             who is overcome by pain.~Athenian. But surely the lawgivers
 42 1 |             meet both, I should say.~Athenian. Then let me once more ask,
 43 1 |        prominent in the Cretan laws.~Athenian. No wonder, my dear friends;
 44 1 |       Cleinias. You are quite right, Athenian Stranger, and we will do
 45 1 |           and we will do as you say.~Athenian. At our time of life, Cleinias,
 46 1 |             Cleinias. Certainly not.~Athenian. I will not at present determine
 47 1 |            to say what is most true.~Athenian. As there are no young men
 48 1 |            be all the better for it.~Athenian. Very good; however, I am
 49 1 |            very childish and simple.~Athenian. Suppose, Cleinias and Megillus,
 50 1 |              temperance and courage.~Athenian. There seems to be a difficulty,
 51 1 |           the sort happens among us.~Athenian. O Lacedaemonian Stranger,
 52 1 |            In order to retaliate, an Athenian has only to point out the
 53 1 |            nations flying before us.~Athenian. Nay, my good friend, do
 54 1 |           Megillus. How do you mean?~Athenian. All those who are ready
 55 1 |              enquiry which is right.~Athenian. Let me put the matter thus:—
 56 1 |             Megillus. Certainly not.~Athenian. Does a captain require
 57 1 |              liable to sea–sickness.~Athenian. And what would you say
 58 1 |          fear?~Megillus. Impossible.~Athenian. And what if besides being
 59 1 |               but only of old women.~Athenian. And what would you say
 60 1 |        meeting when rightly ordered.~Athenian. Reflect; may not banqueters
 61 1 |        meeting?~Megillus. Of course.~Athenian. And did any one ever see
 62 1 |             wrong in such societies.~Athenian. Likely enough; then let
 63 1 |        Cleinias. Certainly I should.~Athenian. And we were saying just
 64 1 |              man?~Cleinias. We were.~Athenian. The brave man is less likely
 65 1 |        Cleinias. That again is true.~Athenian. And if there were a possibility
 66 1 |            him?~Cleinias. Assuredly.~Athenian. Now, however, we are speaking
 67 1 |            of peace.~Cleinias. True.~Athenian. And that sort of meeting,
 68 1 |     Certainly; the reverse of quiet.~Athenian. In the first place, then,
 69 1 |             be sure; no men more so.~Athenian. And we ought, if possible,
 70 1 |          ruler?~Cleinias. Of course.~Athenian. And he should be a man
 71 1 |       occasion.~Cleinias. Very true.~Athenian. Must we not appoint a sober
 72 1 |            fortune that he is saved.~Athenian. Now suppose such associations
 73 1 |       ordinance is duly established.~Athenian. If you mean to ask what
 74 1 |      important element of education.~Athenian. Certainly I do.~Cleinias.
 75 1 |            have been saying is true?~Athenian. To be absolutely sure of
 76 1 |      precisely what we want to hear.~Athenian. Very good; I will try to
 77 1 |              me make an apology. The Athenian citizen is reputed among
 78 1 |         question of law?~Megillus. O Athenian Stranger, let me tell you
 79 1 |              always like to hear the Athenian tongue spoken; the common
 80 1 |              quite true, that a good Athenian is more than ordinarily
 81 1 |            parents have had for you.~Athenian. You seem to be quite ready
 82 1 |              proceed, if you please.~Athenian. Well, then, if I tell you
 83 1 |               Cleinias. Let us hear.~Athenian. According to my view, any
 84 1 |            far?~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. Then let us not leave the
 85 1 |             entirely agree with you.~Athenian. And we agreed before that
 86 1 |       Cleinias. You are quite right.~Athenian. Let me now proceed, if
 87 1 |              you.~Cleinias. Proceed.~Athenian. Do we not consider each
 88 1 |             be one?~Cleinias. We do.~Athenian. And each one of us has
 89 1 |             pain.~Cleinias. Exactly.~Athenian. Also there are opinions
 90 1 |               I am in the like case.~Athenian. Let us look at the matter
 91 1 |             the length of discourse.~Athenian. Very good; let us proceed
 92 1 |           object.~Cleinias. Proceed.~Athenian. Suppose that we give this
 93 1 |            do you ask that question?~Athenian. Nothing as yet; but I ask
 94 1 |              Cleinias. Very greatly.~Athenian. And are perception and
 95 1 |            they entirely desert him.~Athenian. Does he not return to the
 96 1 |            child?~Cleinias. He does.~Athenian. Then at that time he will
 97 1 |        himself?~Cleinias. The least.~Athenian. And will he not be in a
 98 1 |             Cleinias. Most wretched.~Athenian. Then not only an old man
 99 1 |       Cleinias. Well said, Stranger.~Athenian. Is there any argument which
100 1 |            maintain such a doctrine.~Athenian. True, I was; and I am ready
101 1 |              into utter degradation.~Athenian. Are you speaking of the
102 1 |             the soul?~Cleinias. Yes.~Athenian. And what would you say
103 1 |    decrepitude?~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. Yet when a man goes of
104 1 |              all that is well known.~Athenian. Also that they go of their
105 1 |        benefit?~Cleinias. Very good.~Athenian. And we may conceive this
106 1 |      practices?~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. And the same view may be
107 1 |       follows?~Cleinias. To be sure.~Athenian. If such convivialities
108 1 |             to be derived from them.~Athenian. That is just what we must
109 1 |             Cleinias. What are they?~Athenian. There is the fear of expected
110 1 |        expected evil.~Cleinias. Yes.~Athenian. And there is the fear of
111 1 |          shame.~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. These are the two fears,
112 1 |      pleasures.~Cleinias. Very true.~Athenian. And does not the legislator
113 1 |              states.~Cleinias. True.~Athenian. Does not this kind of fear
114 1 |        friends.~Cleinias. There are.~Athenian. Then each of us should
115 1 |     determined.~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. And when we want to make
116 1 |            fears.~Cleinias. Clearly.~Athenian. And when we want to make
117 1 |           most unlikely supposition.~Athenian. Suppose that some God had
118 1 |         really been known among men?~Athenian. No; but, if there had been,
119 1 |             the answer of every one.~Athenian. “And you would rather have
120 1 |          every one may safely agree.~Athenian. “And in order to make use
121 1 |         Stranger, to use the potion.~Athenian. This would be a mode of
122 1 |       equally show his self–control.~Athenian. Let us return to the lawgiver,
123 1 |          that wine is such a potion.~Athenian. Is not the effect of this
124 1 |    description.~Megillus. Certainly.~Athenian. Now, let us remember, as
125 1 |     reverence, if I am not mistaken.~Athenian. Thank you for reminding
126 1 |           That is probably the case.~Athenian. There are times and seasons
127 1 |             is base.~Cleinias. True.~Athenian. Are not the moments in
128 1 |              That is certainly true.~Athenian. And this knowledge of the
129 2 |                              BOOK II~Athenian Stranger. And now we have
130 2 |            error.~Cleinias. Proceed.~Athenian. Let me once more recall
131 2 |             You talk rather grandly.~Athenian. Pleasure and pain I maintain
132 2 |              saying about education.~Athenian. I am glad to hear that
133 2 |             say?~Cleinias. I assent.~Athenian. And the uneducated is he
134 2 |        trained?~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. And the chorus is made
135 2 |            and song?~Cleinias. True.~Athenian. Then he who is well educated
136 2 |              I suppose that he will.~Athenian. Let us see; what are we
137 2 |              saying?~Cleinias. What?~Athenian. He sings well and dances
138 2 |            Let us make the addition.~Athenian. We will suppose that he
139 2 |              two kinds of education.~Athenian. If we three know what is
140 2 |              or not.~Cleinias. True.~Athenian. Let us follow the scent
141 2 |            barbarian.~Cleinias. Yes.~Athenian. And what is beauty of figure,
142 2 |       colours of their faces differ?~Athenian. Good, my friend; I may
143 2 |            that these things are so.~Athenian. Once more, are all of us
144 2 |             Cleinias. Far otherwise.~Athenian. What, then, leads us astray?
145 2 |            delusion.~Cleinias. What?~Athenian. The adaptation of art to
146 2 |           them.~Cleinias. Very true.~Athenian. And is any harm done to
147 2 |               I think that there is.~Athenian. “I think” is not the word,
148 2 |            Cleinias. I know of none.~Athenian. Then in a city which has
149 2 |             is not to be thought of.~Athenian. And yet he may do this
150 2 |          music and dancing in Egypt?~Athenian. You will wonder when I
151 2 |         Cleinias. How extraordinary!~Athenian. I should rather say, How
152 2 |            seem to prove your point.~Athenian. May we not confidently
153 2 |          rejoice?~Cleinias. Exactly.~Athenian. And when rejoicing in our
154 2 |            be still?~Cleinias. True.~Athenian. Our young men break forth
155 2 |          youth.~Cleinias. Very true.~Athenian. Is it altogether unmeaning
156 2 |          acting?~Cleinias. Possibly.~Athenian. But, my dear friend, let
157 2 |           Cleinias. In what respect?~Athenian. There would be various
158 2 |              the question is absurd.~Athenian. Well, then, if neither
159 2 |              Cleinias. By all means.~Athenian. If very small children
160 2 |           show.~Cleinias. Of course.~Athenian. The older children will
161 2 |               Cleinias. Very likely.~Athenian. And I believe that we old
162 2 |             question.~Cleinias. Yes.~Athenian. Clearly you and I will
163 2 |          world.~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. Thus far I too should agree
164 2 |            tell you?~Cleinias. What?~Athenian. The inference at which
165 2 |             they are never the same.~Athenian. Most true, Cleinias; and
166 2 |        Cleinias. Certainly they are.~Athenian. And if they were extended
167 2 |             saying ought to prevail.~Athenian. Let us see whether we understand
168 2 |             agree and partly do not.~Athenian. When a man has health and
169 2 |        Cleinias. That is quite true.~Athenian. Once more: Suppose that
170 2 |           much?~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. And an evil life too?~Cleinias.
171 2 |              disposed to grant that.~Athenian. Will he not live painfully
172 2 |           How can I possibly say so?~Athenian. How! Then may Heaven make
173 2 |          base?~Cleinias. Impossible.~Athenian. The view which identifies
174 2 |             of them.~Cleinias. True.~Athenian. And which may be supposed
175 2 |             that of the better soul.~Athenian. Then the unjust life must
176 2 |             in the present argument.~Athenian. And even supposing this
177 2 |            are hard to be persuaded.~Athenian. And yet the story of the
178 2 |        Cleinias. What is that story?~Athenian. The story of armed men
179 2 |             what you are now saying.~Athenian. The next suggestion which
180 2 |              assent to what you say.~Athenian. First will enter in their
181 2 |              mean to say about them.~Athenian. And yet almost all that
182 2 |              to be a little plainer?~Athenian. I was speaking at the commencement
183 2 |          Cleinias. I quite remember.~Athenian. Thus far I have spoken
184 2 |              to dance in his honour.~Athenian. Very true; and therefore
185 2 |       proposal.~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. Are we agreed thus far?~
186 2 |           far?~Cleinias. About what?~Athenian. That every man and boy,
187 2 |      Cleinias. Every one will agree.~Athenian. Where, then, will that
188 2 |              we cannot let them off.~Athenian. Then how can we carry out
189 2 |             the way?~Cleinias. What?~Athenian. When a man is advancing
190 2 |           true?~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. Well, and will he not be
191 2 |         exhibit.~Cleinias. No doubt.~Athenian. How, then, shall we reassure
192 2 |              will be far more ready.~Athenian. There will be no impropriety
193 2 |               Cleinias. None at all.~Athenian. And what strain will they
194 2 |           them.~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. And what strain is suitable
195 2 |    accustomed to sing in our chorus.~Athenian. I dare say; for you have
196 2 |            depreciate our lawgivers.~Athenian. Not intentionally, if at
197 2 |           best.~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. When things have an accompanying
198 2 |        rightness.~Cleinias. Just so.~Athenian. Thus, too, I should say
199 2 |            to it.~Cleinias. Exactly.~Athenian. And so in the imitative
200 2 |              a charm?~Cleinias. Yes.~Athenian. But equal proportions,
201 2 |            rightness.~Cleinias. Yes.~Athenian. Then that only can be rightly
202 2 |      harmless pleasure, are you not?~Athenian. Yes; and this I term amusement,
203 2 |             of.~Cleinias. Very true.~Athenian. Then, if such be our principles,
204 2 |      whatever.~Cleinias. Quite true.~Athenian. Do we not regard all music
205 2 |      imitative?~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. Then, when any one says
206 2 |           good.~Cleinias. Very true.~Athenian. And those who seek for
207 2 |        quality.~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. And every one will admit
208 2 |           this?~Cleinias. They will.~Athenian. Surely then he who would
209 2 |             Cleinias. Certainly not.~Athenian. And will he who does not
210 2 |          another way.~Cleinias. How?~Athenian. There are ten thousand
211 2 |             of sight?~Cleinias. Yes.~Athenian. And can he who does not
212 2 |      imitated?~Cleinias. Impossible.~Athenian. But even if we know that
213 2 |              us be judges of beauty.~Athenian. Very true; and may we not
214 2 |        rhythms?~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. Then let us not faint in
215 2 |       Cleinias. Clearly they cannot.~Athenian. The many are ridiculous
216 2 |      Cleinias. That is most certain.~Athenian. But can a man who does
217 2 |         right?~Cleinias. Impossible.~Athenian. Then now, as would appear,
218 2 |           case.~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. Every man has a more than
219 2 |       mankind.~Cleinias. Quite true.~Athenian. Were we not saying that
220 2 |           and shame?~Cleinias. True.~Athenian. And the guardians of these
221 2 |            greater.~Cleinias. Right.~Athenian. If, then, drinking and
222 2 |            regulated as you propose.~Athenian. Let us not then simply
223 2 |      Cleinias. To what do you refer?~Athenian. There is a tradition or
224 2 |              To be sure, I remember.~Athenian. And did we not say that
225 2 |           them?~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. The other story implied
226 2 |             precisely what was said.~Athenian. Then half the subject may
227 2 |              you divide the subject?~Athenian. The whole choral art is
228 2 |            the voice.~Cleinias. Yes.~Athenian. The movement of the body
229 2 |          voice.~Cleinias. Most true.~Athenian. And the sound of the voice
230 2 |             Cleinias. We were right.~Athenian. And the movement of the
231 2 |        gymnastic.~Cleinias. Exactly.~Athenian. Music, which was one half
232 2 |             make to such an enquiry?~Athenian. An answer is contained
233 2 |        understand me; do as you say.~Athenian. I will; and there will
234 2 |            Cleinias. There will not.~Athenian. Is not the origin of gymnastics,
235 2 |            art?~Cleinias. Very true.~Athenian. And one part of this subject
236 2 |        discussed?~Cleinias. Exactly.~Athenian. I have first a final word
237 2 |           What more have you to say?~Athenian. I should say that if a
238 3 |                             BOOK III~Athenian Stranger. Enough of this.
239 3 |          Cleinias. What do you mean?~Athenian. I mean that he might watch
240 3 |              ages.~Cleinias. How so?~Athenian. Why, do you think that
241 3 |              them?~Cleinias. Hardly.~Athenian. But are sure that it must
242 3 |   incalculable?~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. And have not thousands
243 3 |     declining?~Cleinias. To be sure.~Athenian. Let us endeavour to ascertain
244 3 |            effort to understand you.~Athenian. Do you believe that there
245 3 |           Cleinias. What traditions?~Athenian. The traditions about the
246 3 |            disposed to believe them.~Athenian. Let us consider one of
247 3 |              we to observe about it?~Athenian. I mean to say that those
248 3 |        mountains.~Cleinias. Clearly.~Athenian. Such survivors would necessarily
249 3 |        another.~Cleinias. Very true.~Athenian. Let us suppose, then, that
250 3 |           time.~Cleinias. Very good.~Athenian. Would not all implements
251 3 |          which are but of yesterday.~Athenian. Have you forgotten, Cleinias,
252 3 |            that you mean Epimenides.~Athenian. The same, my friend; he
253 3 |          according to our tradition.~Athenian. After the great destruction,
254 3 |         tended them?~Cleinias. True.~Athenian. And of cities or governments
255 3 |             Cleinias. None whatever.~Athenian. And out of this state of
256 3 |          Cleinias. What do you mean?~Athenian. Why, my good friend, how
257 3 |             and you are quite right.~Athenian. But, as time advanced and
258 3 |             is.~Cleinias. Very true.~Athenian. Doubtless the change was
259 3 |         highly probable supposition.~Athenian. At first, they would have
260 3 |          plain.~Cleinias. Of course.~Athenian. The fewness of the survivors
261 3 |           There could not have been.~Athenian. In how many generations
262 3 |            not for many generations.~Athenian. During this period, and
263 3 |      disappear.~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. Faction and war would also
264 3 |         Cleinias. How would that be?~Athenian. In the first place, the
265 3 |             those of my friend here.~Athenian. Would not many generations
266 3 |      explained.~Cleinias. Very true.~Athenian. I should wish you to understand
267 3 |             has been very well said.~Athenian. They could hardly have
268 3 |          called.~Cleinias. Probably.~Athenian. But there was already existing
269 3 |              tradition to barbarism.~Athenian. Yes, he does confirm it;
270 3 |             arise.~Cleinias. We may.~Athenian. And were not such states
271 3 |           just?~Cleinias. Very true.~Athenian. After this they came together
272 3 |             least we may suppose so.~Athenian. There is another thing
273 3 |              happen.~Cleinias. What?~Athenian. When these larger habitations
274 3 |           laws.~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. And every man surely likes
275 3 |             so well.~Cleinias. True.~Athenian. Then now we seem to have
276 3 |      legislation.~Cleinias. Exactly.~Athenian. The next step will be that
277 3 |             natural order of things.~Athenian. Then, now let us speak
278 3 |              Cleinias. What is that?~Athenian. The form which in fact
279 3 |         attain truth.~Cleinias. Yes.~Athenian. Then now let us proceed
280 3 |              Cleinias. By all means.~Athenian. Ilium was built, when they
281 3 |               Such is the tradition.~Athenian. And we must suppose this
282 3 |          many ages after the deluge?~Athenian. A marvellous forgetfulness
283 3 |              long interval, clearly.~Athenian. And, as population increased,
284 3 |      inhabited.~Cleinias. Doubtless.~Athenian. Those cities made war against
285 3 |              sea.~Cleinias. Clearly.~Athenian. The Achaeans remained ten
286 3 |      overthrew Troy.~Cleinias. True.~Athenian. And during the ten years
287 3 |        Sparta.~Megillus. To be sure.~Athenian. Thus, after digressing
288 3 |            short for the discussion.~Athenian. Then I suppose that we
289 3 |        subject?~Megillus. Certainly.~Athenian. Let us place ourselves
290 3 |          Lacedaemon.~Megillus. True.~Athenian. Temenus was the king of
291 3 |     Lacedaemon.~Megillus. Certainly.~Athenian. To these kings all the
292 3 |             kingdom.~Megillus. True.~Athenian. But can a kingship be destroyed,
293 3 |             while ago?~Megillus. No.~Athenian. And may we not now further
294 3 |             the fact?~Megillus. Yes.~Athenian. And the three states to
295 3 |             Megillus. What security?~Athenian. That the other two states
296 3 |    rebellious third.~Megillus. True.~Athenian. Many persons say that legislators
297 3 |           manner.~Megillus. Exactly.~Athenian. Whereas the physician may
298 3 |           pain.~Megillus. Certainly.~Athenian. There was also another
299 3 |            Megillus. What advantage?~Athenian. The legislators of that
300 3 |       standing.~Megillus. Very true.~Athenian. But then, my good friends,
301 3 |           and why do you blame them?~Athenian. There were three kingdoms,
302 3 |              is not easily answered.~Athenian. And yet must be answered
303 3 |          must find out why this was.~Athenian. What laws are more worthy
304 3 |            Megillus. I know of none.~Athenian. Can we doubt that your
305 3 |        states?~Megillus. Quite true.~Athenian. And would not men who had
306 3 |      Megillus. Of course they would.~Athenian. Yet these institutions,
307 3 |             war.~Megillus. No doubt.~Athenian. But what was the ruin of
308 3 |          here presented to his view.~Athenian. Then now we seem to have
309 3 |       question.~Megillus. Very true.~Athenian. Did you never remark, sage
310 3 |     referring, and what do you mean?~Athenian. I was thinking of my own
311 3 |              we in assenting to you?~Athenian. Perhaps; and yet I cannot
312 3 |           would he not be justified?~Athenian. Reflect; in what point
313 3 |            had?~Megillus. Very good.~Athenian. Suppose any one were in
314 3 |         desires.~Megillus. He would.~Athenian. Well, now, and does not
315 3 |       mankind?~Megillus. What is it?~Athenian. The desire which a man
316 3 |         desire.~Megillus. Certainly.~Athenian. And having this desire
317 3 |              it.~Megillus. No doubt.~Athenian. And we join in the prayers
318 3 |         themselves.~Megillus. We do.~Athenian. Dear is the son to the
319 3 |          elder.~Megillus. Of course.~Athenian. And yet the son often prays
320 3 |         young and foolish, you mean?~Athenian. Yes; or when the father,
321 3 |          pray and strive for wisdom.~Athenian. Yes; and I remember, and
322 3 |              if Heaven wills. Go on.~Athenian. Well, then, proceeding
323 3 |           Cleinias. That is evident.~Athenian. Then now consider what
324 3 |          opinion is—~Cleinias. What?~Athenian. That the greatest ignorance
325 3 |             we understand and agree.~Athenian. Let us, then, in the first
326 3 |              Let it be so laid down.~Athenian. I suppose that there must
327 3 |         states?~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. And what are the principles
328 3 |       offspring?~Cleinias. There is.~Athenian. Next follows the principle
329 3 |          obey?~Cleinias. To be sure.~Athenian. And, fourthly, that slaves
330 3 |           rule?~Cleinias. Of course.~Athenian. Fifthly, if I am not mistaken,
331 3 |            rule not to be disobeyed.~Athenian. Yes, and a rule which prevails
332 3 |     compulsion.~Cleinias. Most true.~Athenian. There is a seventh kind
333 3 |           just.~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. “Then now,” as we say playfully
334 3 |         worse.”~Cleinias. Very true.~Athenian. And may we suppose this
335 3 |            proud and luxurious life.~Athenian. Is it not palpable that
336 3 |               Cleinias. Very likely.~Athenian. Good; and what measures
337 3 |          Megillus. What do you mean?~Athenian. Any one who looks at what
338 3 |         Speak a little more clearly.~Athenian. Nothing can be clearer
339 3 |          make.~Megillus. What is it?~Athenian. That if any one gives too
340 3 |            follows:—~Megillus. What?~Athenian. A God, who watched over
341 3 |            despised.~Cleinias. True.~Athenian. There was small credit
342 3 |           the legislator should aim.~Athenian. Hear me, then: there are
343 3 |          both.~Cleinias. Impossible.~Athenian. Neither the one, if it
344 3 |            to elucidate our subject.~Athenian. Hear, then:—There was a
345 3 |       appears to have been the case.~Athenian. How, then, was this advantage
346 3 |            bearing upon our subject.~Athenian. I imagine that Cyrus, though
347 3 |               What makes you say so?~Athenian. I think that from his youth
348 3 |            splendid education truly!~Athenian. Such an one as women were
349 3 |               What would you expect?~Athenian. Their father had possessions
350 3 |             probably were the facts.~Athenian. Yes; and the tradition
351 3 |              chiefs.~Cleinias. True.~Athenian. Let us note the rest of
352 3 |          What do you mean, Stranger?~Athenian. I suppose that courage
353 3 |        virtue?~Megillus. To be sure.~Athenian. Then, now hear and judge
354 3 |             Megillus. Heaven forbid!~Athenian. Or an artist, who was clever
355 3 |             Megillus. Certainly not.~Athenian. And surely justice does
356 3 |    temperance?~Megillus. Impossible.~Athenian. Any more than our pattern
357 3 |           intemperate?~Megillus. No.~Athenian. There is a further consideration
358 3 |        states.~Megillus. What is it?~Athenian. I should like to know whether
359 3 |             Megillus. I cannot tell.~Athenian. And that is the best answer;
360 3 |            Megillus. I am fortunate.~Athenian. Very good; a quality, which
361 3 |              speaking of temperance?~Athenian. Yes; but of the other virtues,
362 3 |       regular order.~Megillus. True.~Athenian. And ought not the legislator
363 3 |       Megillus. Certainly he should.~Athenian. Suppose that we leave to
364 3 |     ourselves.~Megillus. Very; good.~Athenian. We maintain, then, that
365 3 |            that be plainly declared.~Athenian. The consideration of the
366 3 |        silver.~Megillus. Quite true.~Athenian. And now enough of the Persians,
367 3 |          among them.~Megillus. Good.~Athenian. Next, we must pass in review
368 3 |       limited, which was our ancient Athenian constitution at the time
369 3 |     dispersed.~Megillus. Your words, Athenian, are quite true, and worthy
370 3 |        yourself and of your country.~Athenian. They are true, Megillus;
371 3 |             us a fuller explanation.~Athenian. I will. Under the ancient
372 3 |               What laws do you mean?~Athenian. In the first place, let
373 3 |        liberty?~Megillus. Very true.~Athenian. Consequent upon this freedom
374 3 |           said?~Megillus. Very good.~Athenian. This, then, has been said
375 3 |             sake—~Megillus. Of what?~Athenian. We were maintaining that
376 3 |            not?~Megillus. Certainly.~Athenian. With a view to this we
377 3 |        gainers.~Megillus. Very true.~Athenian. And that was our reason
378 3 |           which is in contemplation.~Athenian. Good news, Cleinias; if
379 4 |                              BOOK IV~Athenian Stranger. And now, what
380 4 |         stadia distant from the sea.~Athenian. And are there harbours
381 4 |           there could not be better.~Athenian. Alas! what a prospect!
382 4 |          Hardly in need of anything.~Athenian. And is there any neighbouring
383 4 |       deserted from time immemorial.~Athenian. And has the place a fair
384 4 |           the rest of Crete in that.~Athenian. You mean to say that there
385 4 |            plain?~Cleinias. Exactly.~Athenian. Then there is some hope
386 4 |           were and are in the right.~Athenian. Well, but let me ask, how
387 4 |           for the interior of ships.~Athenian. These are also natural
388 4 |        advantages.~Cleinias. Why so?~Athenian. Because no city ought to
389 4 |         which we have been speaking?~Athenian. Remember, my good friend,
390 4 |             the salvation of Hellas.~Athenian. Why, yes; and that is an
391 4 |              already.~Cleinias. Yes.~Athenian. Then we have only to ask
392 4 |           Cleinias. The best by far.~Athenian. And now let me proceed
393 4 |          Gortys in the Peloponnesus.~Athenian. Cities find colonization
394 4 |              to know why you say so.~Athenian. My good friend, I am afraid
395 4 |              what are you referring?~Athenian. I was going to say that
396 4 |          them.~Cleinias. What is it?~Athenian. That God governs all things,
397 4 |          would agree?~Cleinias. Yes.~Athenian. And does not a like principle
398 4 |          scene?~Cleinias. Most true.~Athenian. In each case the artist
399 4 |            art?~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. And all the other artists
400 4 |             so?~Cleinias. Of course.~Athenian. And the legislator would
401 4 |             I believe that he would.~Athenian. “Come, legislator,” we
402 4 |           his answer?~Cleinias. Yes.~Athenian. He will say—”Give me a
403 4 |          speaks, must be temperance?~Athenian. Yes, Cleinias, temperance
404 4 |        meaning.~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. Then our tyrant must have
405 4 |           such a monstrous doctrine?~Athenian. There is surely no difficulty
406 4 |       courageous, of a noble nature?~Athenian. Yes; and you must add fortunate;
407 4 |            is not that your meaning?~Athenian. Not so; I mean rather to
408 4 |            How? I do not understand.~Athenian. And yet I have repeated
409 4 |             great desire to see one.~Athenian. And yet, where there is
410 4 |          Cleinias. What do you mean?~Athenian. I mean that you might see
411 4 |              and of compelling them?~Athenian. Let no one, my friends,
412 4 |            Of what are you speaking?~Athenian. The difficulty is to find
413 4 |           Cleinias. How do you mean?~Athenian. Let us try to amuse ourselves,
414 4 |            us proceed without delay.~Athenian. Then let us invoke God
415 4 |               Cleinias. May he come!~Athenian. But what form of polity
416 4 |           you would include tyranny.~Athenian. Which of you will first
417 4 |              Cnosus is any of these.~Athenian. The reason is, my excellent
418 4 |       Cleinias. And who is this God?~Athenian. May I still make use of
419 4 |              Cleinias. By all means.~Athenian. In the primeval world,
420 4 |        necessary to hear about that.~Athenian. I quite agree with you;
421 4 |           giving us the whole story.~Athenian. I will do as you suggest.
422 4 |         Cleinias. Certainly we will.~Athenian. You are aware—are you not?—
423 4 |              justice.~Cleinias. How?~Athenian. Justice is said by them
424 4 |             Cleinias. Speak plainer.~Athenian. I will:—”Surely,” they
425 4 |              state?”~Cleinias. True.~Athenian. “Well,” they would add, “
426 4 |             can they have any other?~Athenian. “And whoever transgresses
427 4 |          just?”~Cleinias. Naturally.~Athenian. “This, then, is always
428 4 |           are correct in their view.~Athenian. Why, yes, this is one of
429 4 |         Cleinias. Which do you mean?~Athenian. Those which we were examining
430 4 |           Cleinias. Yes; I remember.~Athenian. Consider, then, to whom
431 4 |        states—~Cleinias. What thing?~Athenian. That when there has been
432 4 |              the keen vision of age.~Athenian. Why, yes; every man when
433 4 |        keenest.~Cleinias. Very true.~Athenian. And now, what is to be
434 4 |           them?~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. “Friends,” we say to them,—”
435 4 |             can be no doubt of that.~Athenian. Then what life is agreeable
436 4 |              Cleinias. What is that?~Athenian. I should wish the citizens
437 4 |           laws.~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. The proposal appears to
438 4 |            he certainly speaks well.~Athenian. Very true: and now let
439 4 |          upon me.~Cleinias. Proceed.~Athenian. Suppose that we have a
440 4 |          Cleinias. Of course he can.~Athenian. “Did we not hear you just
441 4 |              Cleinias. That is true.~Athenian. May we not fairly make
442 4 |         answer shall we make to him?~Athenian. That the poet, according
443 4 |             Cleinias. Certainly not.~Athenian. And is our legislator to
444 4 |        doctors.~Cleinias. Very true.~Athenian. And whether they are slaves
445 4 |       doctors?~Cleinias. To be sure.~Athenian. And did you ever observe
446 4 |            double way is far better.~Athenian. Should you like to see
447 4 |        Cleinias. Certainly I should.~Athenian. What will be our first
448 4 |           births?~Cleinias. He will.~Athenian. In all states the birth
449 4 |       marriage?~Cleinias. Very true.~Athenian. And, according to the true
450 4 |           state?~Cleinias. Quite so.~Athenian. Then let me first give
451 4 |       Cleinias. Thank you, Megillus.~Athenian. Whether, in the abstract,
452 4 |          laws.~Cleinias. What is it?~Athenian. A point arising out of
453 4 |           the form which you advise.~Athenian. I think that you are right,
454 4 |         through the laws themselves.~Athenian. I understand you to mean
455 4 |              day?~Cleinias. Exactly.~Athenian. After this, as is meet
456 5 |                               BOOK V~Athenian Stranger. Listen, all ye
457 5 |       country.~Cleinias. Your words, Athenian Stranger, are excellent,
458 6 |                              BOOK VI~Athenian Stranger. And now having
459 6 |   magistracies.~Cleinias. Very good.~Athenian. In the ordering of a state
460 6 |            What have you got to say?~Athenian. This is what I have to
461 6 |           them.~Cleinias. Of course.~Athenian. Then now, my friend, let
462 6 |   magistrates?~Cleinias. Impossible.~Athenian. The matter is serious,
463 6 |       Cleinias. Excellent, Stranger.~Athenian. Yes; and I will be as good
464 6 |             means do as you propose.~Athenian. That we will, by the grace
465 6 |            But God will be gracious.~Athenian. Yes; and under his guidance
466 6 |         point.~Cleinias. What is it?~Athenian. Let us remember what a
467 6 |             mind when you said that?~Athenian. I had in my mind the free
468 6 |              reasonable supposition.~Athenian. Then let us consider if
469 6 |             devise of electing them?~Athenian. This will be the method:—
470 6 |              a part in our new city?~Athenian. O, Cleinias, Athens is
471 6 |         Cleinias. That is very true.~Athenian. Then let us recognize the
472 6 |     expedient.~Cleinias. What is it?~Athenian. I maintain that this colony
473 6 |              To be sure there ought.~Athenian. Let us assume, then, that
474 6 |           the end of the former one.~Athenian. Thus far, then, the old
475 6 |           serious and noble pursuit?~Athenian. Perhaps; but I should like
476 6 |          Cleinias. About what thing?~Athenian. You know. the endless labour
477 6 |           acquaintance with the art.~Athenian. No matter; we may make
478 6 |          short time?~Cleinias. True.~Athenian. And is not the aim of the
479 6 |              every one would desire.~Athenian. And if any one possesses
480 6 |              Cleinias. By all means.~Athenian. And is not this what you
481 6 |        Cleinias. What have we to do?~Athenian. As we are about to legislate
482 6 |      Cleinias. Certainly; if we can.~Athenian. At any rate, we must do
483 6 |           best.~Cleinias. Of course.~Athenian. We will say to them—O friends
484 6 |             saying a word in season.~Athenian. I thank you. We will say
485 6 |             Stranger, what you mean.~Athenian. I am not surprised, Megillus,
486 6 |         known.~Megillus. To be sure.~Athenian. But may we not also say
487 6 |              slaves by their owners?~Athenian. Well, Cleinias, there can
488 6 |           Cleinias. That is obvious.~Athenian. He is a troublesome piece
489 6 |             masters.~Cleinias. True.~Athenian. Now that each of the citizens
490 6 |      dwellings.~Cleinias. Very good.~Athenian. The city being new and
491 6 |       outline.~Cleinias. Quite true.~Athenian. The temples are to be placed
492 6 |              Cleinias. By all means.~Athenian. Assuming that marriages
493 6 |       Cleinias.~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. He who imagines that he
494 6 |             Cleinias. Likely enough.~Athenian. I said that there may have
495 6 |             this extreme hesitation?~Athenian. You shall hear without
496 6 |           hear what you have to say.~Athenian. Very good; and you must
497 6 |              of law.~Cleinias. True.~Athenian. Then let us return once
498 6 |            ago.~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. Well, and have there not
499 6 |      themselves?~Cleinias. No doubt.~Athenian. And may we not suppose
500 6 |            do still?~Cleinias. True.~Athenian. Again, the practice of