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    Dialogue                                  grey = Comment text

  1  Meno|                                    Meno~
  2  Meno|        abruptly with a question of Meno, who asks, ‘whether virtue
  3  Meno|            what Gorgias said. Will Meno tell him his own notion,
  4  Meno|       described.’~Socrates reminds Meno that this is only an enumeration
  5  Meno|           all. In a second attempt Meno defines virtue to be ‘the
  6  Meno|            not unjustly exercised. Meno is very ready to admit that
  7  Meno|     figures and other colours. Let Meno take the examples of figure
  8  Meno|           and try to define them.’ Meno confesses his inability,
  9  Meno|      Figure is the limit of form.’ Meno imperiously insists that
 10  Meno|     exactly suited to the taste of Meno, who welcomes the familiar
 11  Meno|            is far better.~Now that Meno has been made to understand
 12  Meno|          repeats the word defined.~Meno complains that the conversation
 13  Meno|         the enquiry. But how, asks Meno, can he enquire either into
 14  Meno|            interrogation of one of Meno’s slaves, who, in the skilful
 15  Meno|             and a family friend of Meno, who happens to be present.
 16  Meno|      present. He is asked ‘whether Meno shall go to the Sophists
 17  Meno|        rage. ‘To whom, then, shall Meno go?’ asks Socrates. To any
 18  Meno|            and the suggestion that Meno may do the Athenian people
 19  Meno|       Gorgias has never instructed Meno, nor Prodicus Socrates.
 20  Meno|        confessedly inadequate, and Meno, who is their pupil, is
 21  Meno|         the acute observation that Meno prefers the familiar definition,
 22  Meno|        ignorance.~The character of Meno, like that of Critias, has
 23  Meno|        dialogue, as in the case of Meno and Critias. Like Chaerephon (
 24  Meno|            of the Sophists. In the Meno the subject is more developed;
 25  Meno|          determine the date of the Meno. There is no reason to suppose
 26  Meno|         the death of Socrates; the Meno, which appears to be one
 27  Meno|        written, as he has done, of Meno before than after his miserable
 28  Meno|           trait of likeness to the Meno of Plato.~The place of the
 29  Meno|            Plato.~The place of the Meno in the series is doubtfully
 30  Meno|            Platonic Dialogues, the Meno arrives at no conclusion.
 31  Meno|          the Platonic ideas in the Meno is the simplest and clearest,
 32  Meno|      newly-discovered thought.~The Meno goes back to a former state
 33  Meno|         experiment tried on one of Meno’s slaves, from whom Socrates
 34  Meno|        Phaedrus, as well as in the Meno, it is this former rather
 35  Meno|           In the Phaedo, as in the Meno, the origin of ideas is
 36  Meno|           be observed, both in the Meno and the Phaedo, that Socrates
 37  Meno|          kind is true.’ And in the Meno, after dwelling upon the
 38  Meno|                                    MENO~PERSONS OF THE DIALOGUE:
 39  Meno|           PERSONS OF THE DIALOGUE: Meno, Socrates, A Slave of Meno (
 40  Meno|         Meno, Socrates, A Slave of Meno (Boy), Anytus.~MENO: Can
 41  Meno|       Slave of Meno (Boy), Anytus.~MENO: Can you tell me, Socrates,
 42  Meno|        what other way?~SOCRATES: O Meno, there was a time when the
 43  Meno|      different is our lot! my dear Meno. Here at Athens there is
 44  Meno|    teaching or not.’ And I myself, Meno, living as I do in this
 45  Meno|           I knew nothing at all of Meno, could I tell if he was
 46  Meno|            you think that I could?~MENO: No, indeed. But are you
 47  Meno|           who did, in my judgment.~MENO: Then you have never met
 48  Meno|             SOCRATES: Yes, I have.~MENO: And did you not think that
 49  Meno|            have not a good memory, Meno, and therefore I cannot
 50  Meno|           and he think much alike.~MENO: Very true.~SOCRATES: Then
 51  Meno|          you tell me: By the gods, Meno, be generous, and tell me
 52  Meno|       never found anybody who had.~MENO: There will be no difficulty,
 53  Meno|      SOCRATES: How fortunate I am, Meno! When I ask you for one
 54  Meno|           How would you answer me?~MENO: I should answer that bees
 55  Meno|          is what I desire to know, Meno; tell me what is the quality
 56  Meno|       would you be able to answer?~MENO: I should.~SOCRATES: And
 57  Meno|          fixed: Do you understand?~MENO: I am beginning to understand;
 58  Meno|            SOCRATES: When you say, Meno, that there is one virtue
 59  Meno|           whether in man or woman?~MENO: I should say that health
 60  Meno|           Is there any difference?~MENO: I think not.~SOCRATES:
 61  Meno|            in a woman or in a man?~MENO: I cannot help feeling,
 62  Meno|        woman was to order a house?~MENO: I did say so.~SOCRATES:
 63  Meno|    temperance and without justice?~MENO: Certainly not.~SOCRATES:
 64  Meno|            temperance and justice?~MENO: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Then
 65  Meno|            temperance and justice?~MENO: True.~SOCRATES: And can
 66  Meno|            intemperate and unjust?~MENO: They cannot.~SOCRATES:
 67  Meno|        must be temperate and just?~MENO: Yes.~SOCRATES: Then all
 68  Meno| participation in the same virtues?~MENO: Such is the inference.~
 69  Meno|          virtue had been the same?~MENO: They would not.~SOCRATES:
 70  Meno|        Gorgias say that virtue is.~MENO: Will you have one definition
 71  Meno|         That is what I am seeking.~MENO: If you want to have one
 72  Meno|            a child and in a slave, Meno? Can the child govern his
 73  Meno|    governed be any longer a slave?~MENO: I think not, Socrates.~
 74  Meno|          justly and not unjustly’?~MENO: Yes, Socrates; I agree
 75  Meno|            Would you say ‘virtue,’ Meno, or ‘a virtue’?~MENO: What
 76  Meno|      virtue,’ Meno, or ‘a virtue’?~MENO: What do you mean?~SOCRATES:
 77  Meno|           there are other figures.~MENO: Quite right; and that is
 78  Meno|           figures if you asked me.~MENO: Courage and temperance
 79  Meno|        many others.~SOCRATES: Yes, Meno; and again we are in the
 80  Meno|       which runs through them all.~MENO: Why, Socrates, even now
 81  Meno|     question which I asked before: Meno, he would say, what is figure?
 82  Meno|           would answer ‘a figure.’~MENO: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And
 83  Meno|           there are other figures?~MENO: Yes.~SOCRATES: And if he
 84  Meno|           you would have told him.~MENO: I should.~SOCRATES: And
 85  Meno|         are other colours as well.~MENO: I should.~SOCRATES: And
 86  Meno|         just as much as whiteness.~MENO: Yes.~SOCRATES: And suppose
 87  Meno|          be your mode of speaking?~MENO: Yes.~SOCRATES: And in speaking
 88  Meno|          more straight than round?~MENO: Certainly not.~SOCRATES:
 89  Meno|           straight than the round?~MENO: Very true.~SOCRATES: To
 90  Meno|          question in another form: Meno, he might say, what is that ‘
 91  Meno|          not answer that question, Meno? I wish that you would try;
 92  Meno|           the answer about virtue.~MENO: I would rather that you
 93  Meno|     SOCRATES: Shall I indulge you?~MENO: By all means.~SOCRATES:
 94  Meno|         will tell me about virtue?~MENO: I will.~SOCRATES: Then
 95  Meno|        there is a prize to be won.~MENO: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Well,
 96  Meno|      similar definition of virtue?~MENO: But, Socrates, it is such
 97  Meno|      answer.~SOCRATES: Why simple?~MENO: Because, according to you,
 98  Meno|       colour.~(SOCRATES: Granted.)~MENO: But if a person were to
 99  Meno|           anything very difficult.~MENO: Yes, I should; and I believe
100  Meno|           for example in geometry.~MENO: Yes.~SOCRATES: Well then,
101  Meno|     concisely, the limit of solid.~MENO: And now, Socrates, what
102  Meno|      SOCRATES: You are outrageous, Meno, in thus plaguing a poor
103  Meno|     Gorgias’ definition of virtue.~MENO: When you have told me what
104  Meno|            have still many lovers.~MENO: Why do you think so?~SOCRATES:
105  Meno|          humour you I must answer.~MENO: Please do.~SOCRATES: Would
106  Meno|          which is familiar to you?~MENO: I should like nothing better.~
107  Meno|           effluences of existence?~MENO: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And
108  Meno|         which the effluences pass?~MENO: Exactly.~SOCRATES: And
109  Meno|            too small or too large?~MENO: True.~SOCRATES: And there
110  Meno|          is such a thing as sight?~MENO: Yes.~SOCRATES: And now,
111  Meno|             and palpable to sense.~MENO: That, Socrates, appears
112  Meno|           other similar phenomena.~MENO: Quite true.~SOCRATES: The
113  Meno|        true.~SOCRATES: The answer, Meno, was in the orthodox solemn
114  Meno|         other answer about figure.~MENO: Yes.~SOCRATES: And yet,
115  Meno|         away before the mysteries.~MENO: But I will stay, Socrates,
116  Meno|        have given you the pattern.~MENO: Well then, Socrates, virtue,
117  Meno|   honourable also desire the good?~MENO: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Then
118  Meno|          my dear sir, desire good?~MENO: I think not.~SOCRATES:
119  Meno|          are some who desire evil?~MENO: Yes.~SOCRATES: Do you mean
120  Meno|          evil and yet desire them?~MENO: Both, I think.~SOCRATES:
121  Meno|         And do you really imagine, Meno, that a man knows evils
122  Meno|      desires them notwithstanding?~MENO: Certainly I do.~SOCRATES:
123  Meno|           desire is of possession?~MENO: Yes, of possession.~SOCRATES:
124  Meno|        that they will do him harm?~MENO: There are some who think
125  Meno|          know that they are evils?~MENO: Certainly not.~SOCRATES:
126  Meno|          they really desire goods?~MENO: Yes, in that case.~SOCRATES:
127  Meno|         they will be hurt by them?~MENO: They must know it.~SOCRATES:
128  Meno|            is inflicted upon them?~MENO: How can it be otherwise?~
129  Meno|           the miserable ill-fated?~MENO: Yes, indeed.~SOCRATES:
130  Meno|           miserable and ill-fated?~MENO: I should say not, Socrates.~
131  Meno|        miserable, there is no one, Meno, who desires evil; for what
132  Meno|            and possession of evil?~MENO: That appears to be the
133  Meno|           power of attaining good?~MENO: Yes, I did say so.~SOCRATES:
134  Meno|           another in that respect?~MENO: True.~SOCRATES: And if
135  Meno|         the power of attaining it?~MENO: Exactly.~SOCRATES: Then,
136  Meno|           power of attaining good?~MENO: I entirely approve, Socrates,
137  Meno|          power of attaining goods?~MENO: Yes.~SOCRATES: And the
138  Meno|         what you would call goods?~MENO: Yes, I should include all
139  Meno|       SOCRATES: Then, according to Meno, who is the hereditary friend
140  Meno|       equally to be deemed virtue?~MENO: Not virtue, Socrates, but
141  Meno|           good will not be virtue.~MENO: Why, how can there be virtue
142  Meno|             may be equally virtue?~MENO: True.~SOCRATES: Then the
143  Meno|         devoid of justice is vice.~MENO: It cannot be otherwise,
144  Meno|          of them a part of virtue?~MENO: Yes.~SOCRATES: And so,
145  Meno|             Yes.~SOCRATES: And so, Meno, this is the way in which
146  Meno|          way in which you mock me.~MENO: Why do you say that, Socrates?~
147  Meno|            to be a part of virtue.~MENO: Yes.~SOCRATES: Then it
148  Meno|         you to be parts of virtue.~MENO: What of that?~SOCRATES:
149  Meno|            And, therefore, my dear Meno, I fear that I must begin
150  Meno|      virtue know a part of virtue?~MENO: No; I do not say that he
151  Meno|         unexplained or unadmitted?~MENO: Yes, Socrates; and we were
152  Meno|            virtue? Am I not right?~MENO: I believe that you are.~
153  Meno|          the definition of virtue?~MENO: O Socrates, I used to be
154  Meno|         SOCRATES: You are a rogue, Meno, and had all but caught
155  Meno|         and had all but caught me.~MENO: What do you mean, Socrates?~
156  Meno|            made a simile about me.~MENO: Why?~SOCRATES: In order
157  Meno|           with you in the enquiry.~MENO: And how will you enquire,
158  Meno|            know?~SOCRATES: I know, Meno, what you mean; but just
159  Meno|     Compare Aristot. Post. Anal.).~MENO: Well, Socrates, and is
160  Meno|             SOCRATES: I think not.~MENO: Why not?~SOCRATES: I will
161  Meno|       spoke of things divine that—~MENO: What did they say?~SOCRATES:
162  Meno|     glorious truth, as I conceive.~MENO: What was it? and who were
163  Meno|         into the nature of virtue.~MENO: Yes, Socrates; but what
164  Meno|          is?~SOCRATES: I told you, Meno, just now that you were
165  Meno|     involve me in a contradiction.~MENO: Indeed, Socrates, I protest
166  Meno|            may demonstrate on him.~MENO: Certainly. Come hither,
167  Meno|         speaks Greek, does he not?~MENO: Yes, indeed; he was born
168  Meno|           of me or only remembers.~MENO: I will.~SOCRATES: Tell
169  Meno|          SOCRATES: Do you observe, Meno, that I am not teaching
170  Meno|          square feet; does he not?~MENO: Yes.~SOCRATES: And does
171  Meno|           And does he really know?~MENO: Certainly not.~SOCRATES:
172  Meno|        double, the line is double.~MENO: True.~SOCRATES: Observe
173  Meno|        know.~SOCRATES: Do you see, Meno, what advances he has made
174  Meno|         nor fancies that he knows.~MENO: True.~SOCRATES: Is he not
175  Meno|          in knowing his ignorance?~MENO: I think that he is.~SOCRATES:
176  Meno|         have we done him any harm?~MENO: I think not.~SOCRATES:
177  Meno|         should have a double side.~MENO: True.~SOCRATES: But do
178  Meno|           and had desired to know?~MENO: I think not, Socrates.~
179  Meno|           for the torpedo’s touch?~MENO: I think so.~SOCRATES: Mark
180  Meno|         the proper name, then you, Meno’s slave, are prepared to
181  Meno|            What do you say of him, Meno? Were not all these answers
182  Meno|         given out of his own head?~MENO: Yes, they were all his
183  Meno|           saying, he did not know?~MENO: True.~SOCRATES: But still
184  Meno|         notions of his—had he not?~MENO: Yes.~SOCRATES: Then he
185  Meno|            which he does not know?~MENO: He has.~SOCRATES: And at
186  Meno|           well as any one at last?~MENO: I dare say.~SOCRATES: Without
187  Meno|           is only asked questions?~MENO: Yes.~SOCRATES: And this
188  Meno|            in him is recollection?~MENO: True.~SOCRATES: And this
189  Meno|      acquired or always possessed?~MENO: Yes.~SOCRATES: But if he
190  Meno|            and bred in your house.~MENO: And I am certain that no
191  Meno|          yet he has the knowledge?~MENO: The fact, Socrates, is
192  Meno|     learned it at some other time?~MENO: Clearly he must.~SOCRATES:
193  Meno|        time when he was not a man?~MENO: Yes.~SOCRATES: And if there
194  Meno|       either was or was not a man?~MENO: Obviously.~SOCRATES: And
195  Meno|          what you do not remember.~MENO: I feel, somehow, that I
196  Meno|           saying.~SOCRATES: And I, Meno, like what I am saying.
197  Meno|            the utmost of my power.~MENO: There again, Socrates,
198  Meno|         into the nature of virtue?~MENO: By all means, Socrates.
199  Meno|          you as well as of myself, Meno, I would not have enquired
200  Meno|         knowledge alone is taught?~MENO: I agree.~SOCRATES: Then
201  Meno|             virtue will be taught?~MENO: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Then
202  Meno|           taught; and if not, not?~MENO: Certainly.~SOCRATES: The
203  Meno|   knowledge or of another species?~MENO: Yes, that appears to be
204  Meno|            which is not set aside.~MENO: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Now,
205  Meno|          that virtue is knowledge?~MENO: True.~SOCRATES: And virtue
206  Meno|          And virtue makes us good?~MENO: Yes.~SOCRATES: And if we
207  Meno|        good things are profitable?~MENO: Yes.~SOCRATES: Then virtue
208  Meno|         Then virtue is profitable?~MENO: That is the only inference.~
209  Meno|         these, we call profitable?~MENO: True.~SOCRATES: And yet
210  Meno|            would you not think so?~MENO: Yes.~SOCRATES: And what
211  Meno|         they are not rightly used?~MENO: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Next,
212  Meno|         magnanimity, and the like?~MENO: Surely.~SOCRATES: And such
213  Meno|          has sense he is profited?~MENO: True.~SOCRATES: And the
214  Meno|            sense they are hurtful?~MENO: Very true.~SOCRATES: And
215  Meno|            folly, in the opposite?~MENO: That appears to be true.~
216  Meno|        sort of wisdom or prudence?~MENO: I quite agree.~SOCRATES:
217  Meno|        wisdom and harmed by folly?~MENO: True.~SOCRATES: And the
218  Meno|          the foolish soul wrongly.~MENO: Yes.~SOCRATES: And is not
219  Meno|          as we say, is profitable?~MENO: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And
220  Meno|           wholly or partly wisdom?~MENO: I think that what you are
221  Meno|            are not by nature good?~MENO: I think not.~SOCRATES:
222  Meno|          been useful to the state?~MENO: Yes, Socrates, that would
223  Meno|          made good by instruction?~MENO: There appears to be no
224  Meno|          supposition is erroneous?~MENO: I certainly thought just
225  Meno|         were right.~SOCRATES: Yes, Meno; but a principle which has
226  Meno|         only just now, but always.~MENO: Well; and why are you so
227  Meno|         will try and tell you why, Meno. I do not retract the assertion
228  Meno|            teachers and disciples?~MENO: Surely.~SOCRATES: And conversely,
229  Meno|         incapable of being taught?~MENO: True; but do you think
230  Meno|            help me and your friend Meno in answering our question,
231  Meno|          matter thus: If we wanted Meno to be a good physician,
232  Meno|            with me about my friend Meno. He has been telling me,
233  Meno|          teachers who will corrupt Meno (let them be, if you please,
234  Meno|           the question which I and Meno have been arguing. Look
235  Meno|         that you know.~SOCRATES: O Meno, think that Anytus is in
236  Meno|    Meanwhile I will return to you, Meno; for I suppose that there
237  Meno|      gentlemen in your region too?~MENO: Certainly there are.~SOCRATES:
238  Meno|       agree that virtue is taught?~MENO: No indeed, Socrates, they
239  Meno| possibility of their own vocation?~MENO: I think not, Socrates.~
240  Meno|          to be teachers of virtue?~MENO: I often wonder, Socrates,
241  Meno|         the Sophists are teachers?~MENO: I cannot tell you, Socrates;
242  Meno|          says the very same thing?~MENO: Where does he say so?~SOCRATES:
243  Meno|         that virtue can be taught?~MENO: Clearly.~SOCRATES: But
244  Meno|        contradiction of the other.~MENO: Clearly.~SOCRATES: And
245  Meno|       ideas are in such confusion?~MENO: I should say, certainly
246  Meno|          can be no other teachers?~MENO: No.~SOCRATES: And if there
247  Meno|       neither are there disciples?~MENO: Agreed.~SOCRATES: And we
248  Meno|            teachers nor disciples?~MENO: We have.~SOCRATES: And
249  Meno|       virtue to be found anywhere?~MENO: There are not.~SOCRATES:
250  Meno|        neither are there scholars?~MENO: That, I think, is true.~
251  Meno|           virtue cannot be taught?~MENO: Not if we are right in
252  Meno|             SOCRATES: I am afraid, Meno, that you and I are not
253  Meno|            be any good men at all.~MENO: How do you mean, Socrates?~
254  Meno|     admitting this? It must be so.~MENO: Yes.~SOCRATES: And in supposing
255  Meno|          there we were also right?~MENO: Yes.~SOCRATES: But when
256  Meno|   phrhonesis), this we were wrong.~MENO: What do you mean by the
257  Meno|            a right and good guide?~MENO: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And
258  Meno|          guide also, might he not?~MENO: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And
259  Meno|            he who knows the truth?~MENO: Exactly.~SOCRATES: Then
260  Meno|       there is also right opinion.~MENO: True.~SOCRATES: Then right
261  Meno|        less useful than knowledge?~MENO: The difference, Socrates,
262  Meno|           as he has right opinion?~MENO: I admit the cogency of
263  Meno|        explain this wonder to you?~MENO: Do tell me.~SOCRATES: You
264  Meno|          got them in your country?~MENO: What have they to do with
265  Meno|          play truant and run away.~MENO: Well, what of that?~SOCRATES:
266  Meno|          fastening of them, friend Meno, is recollection, as you
267  Meno|       because fastened by a chain.~MENO: What you are saying, Socrates,
268  Meno|        most certainly one of them.~MENO: Yes, Socrates; and you
269  Meno|        quite as well as knowledge?~MENO: There again, Socrates,
270  Meno|          to him who has knowledge?~MENO: True.~SOCRATES: And surely
271  Meno|   acknowledged by us to be useful?~MENO: Yes.~SOCRATES: Seeing then
272  Meno|        them to be given by nature?~MENO: Not I.)~SOCRATES: Then
273  Meno|           the good by nature good?~MENO: Certainly not.~SOCRATES:
274  Meno|           is acquired by teaching?~MENO: Yes.~SOCRATES: If virtue
275  Meno|            thought, it was taught?~MENO: Yes.~SOCRATES: And if it
276  Meno|          was taught it was wisdom?~MENO: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And
277  Meno|       there were no teachers, not?~MENO: True.~SOCRATES: But surely
278  Meno|        were no teachers of virtue?~MENO: Yes.~SOCRATES: Then we
279  Meno|        taught, and was not wisdom?~MENO: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And
280  Meno|       admitted that it was a good?~MENO: Yes.~SOCRATES: And the
281  Meno|          guide is useful and good?~MENO: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And
282  Meno|        true opinion and knowledge.~MENO: I think so too.~SOCRATES:
283  Meno|       neither is virtue knowledge.~MENO: Clearly not.~SOCRATES:
284  Meno|           guide in political life.~MENO: I think not.~SOCRATES:
285  Meno|         not grounded on knowledge.~MENO: That is probably true,
286  Meno|            know not what they say.~MENO: So I believe.~SOCRATES:
287  Meno|          SOCRATES: And may we not, Meno, truly call those men ‘divine’
288  Meno|        many a grand deed and word?~MENO: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Then
289  Meno|         not knowing what they say.~MENO: Yes.~SOCRATES: And the
290  Meno|       SOCRATES: And the women too, Meno, call good men divine—do
291  Meno|          that he is a divine man.’~MENO: And I think, Socrates,
292  Meno|           a reality among shadows.~MENO: That is excellent, Socrates.~
293  Meno|          Socrates.~SOCRATES: Then, Meno, the conclusion is that