Dialogue

  1 Phaedr|           wall, when he is met by Socrates, who professes that he will
  2 Phaedr|           country is a novelty to Socrates, who never goes out of the
  3 Phaedr|      Phaedrus asks the opinion of Socrates respecting the local tradition
  4 Phaedr|          of Boreas and Oreithyia. Socrates, after a satirical allusion
  5 Phaedr|           than the serpent Typho. Socrates as yet does not know himself;
  6 Phaedr|        periods, and wants to make Socrates say that nothing was or
  7 Phaedr|          could be written better. Socrates does not think much of the
  8 Phaedr|         set up a golden statue of Socrates at Delphi, if he keeps his
  9 Phaedr|    raillery ensues, and at length Socrates, conquered by the threat
 10 Phaedr|        master power of love.~Here Socrates fancies that he detects
 11 Phaedr|          the censure of the lover Socrates has broken out in verse,
 12 Phaedr|      conversation before they go. Socrates, who has risen, recognizes
 13 Phaedr|         takes the form of a myth.~Socrates begins his tale with a glorification
 14 Phaedr|       lovers have the same wings.~Socrates concludes:—~These are the
 15 Phaedr|           have been deriding him. Socrates is of opinion that there
 16 Phaedr|      ourselves against deception.~Socrates then proposes that they
 17 Phaedr|       from the local deities, and Socrates himself will carry a similar
 18 Phaedr|     prayer to Pan and the nymphs, Socrates and Phaedrus depart.~There
 19 Phaedr|       fine words which are not in Socrates’ manner, as he says, ‘in
 20 Phaedr|     rhetoric; the first speech of Socrates, though an improvement,
 21 Phaedr|          characters of men, which Socrates at the commencement of the
 22 Phaedr|      genuine), or the pretence of Socrates in the Cratylus that his
 23 Phaedr|   elsewhere.~In the second speech Socrates is exhibited as beating
 24 Phaedr|         the greater liveliness of Socrates, which hurries him into
 25 Phaedr|           purpose than to exhibit Socrates as the rival or superior
 26 Phaedr|           the parallel oration of Socrates. First, passionate love
 27 Phaedr|      imaginative of speculations. Socrates, half in jest and to satisfy
 28 Phaedr|       doubtful.’ Suppose a modern Socrates, in defiance of the received
 29 Phaedr|           side outwards, a modern Socrates might describe the evils
 30 Phaedr|     compensated by greater goods. Socrates or Archilochus would soon
 31 Phaedr|         is spiritual and eternal. Socrates is necessarily ironical;
 32 Phaedr|           can imagine the mind of Socrates in another age and country;
 33 Phaedr|         are strongly condemned by Socrates as sinful and blasphemous
 34 Phaedr|    formality of the two speeches (Socrates has a sense of relief when
 35 Phaedr|   important from the unimportant. Socrates himself has given the right
 36 Phaedr|    characteristic of the irony of Socrates to mix up sense and nonsense
 37 Phaedr|           the second discourse of Socrates is only an allegory, or
 38 Phaedr|       philosophy are described by Socrates in figures of speech which
 39 Phaedr|  neglected by us. But the mind of Socrates pierces through the differences
 40 Phaedr|         we fall under the lash of Socrates. For do we not often make ‘
 41 Phaedr|          There is another text of Socrates which must not be forgotten
 42 Phaedr|          of their art? What would Socrates think of our newspapers,
 43 Phaedr|         may fill up the sketch of Socrates, lest, as Phaedrus says,
 44 Phaedr|          word, and the example of Socrates, which he has represented
 45 Phaedr|      knowledge cannot be taught.’ Socrates means to say, that what
 46 Phaedr|          following the example of Socrates and of Christ...~Some other
 47 Phaedr|           years of age, and while Socrates himself was still alive.~
 48 Phaedr|           who is here assailed by Socrates, is the son of his old friend
 49 Phaedr|          this that the picture of Socrates, though in some lesser particulars,—
 50 Phaedr|         Platonic and not the real Socrates. Can we suppose ‘the young
 51 Phaedr|          speech and the remark of Socrates which follows afterwards, ‘
 52 Phaedr|       Sophocles; and the Platonic Socrates is afraid that, if he approves
 53 Phaedr|          PERSONS OF THE DIALOGUE: Socrates, Phaedrus.~SCENE: Under
 54 Phaedr|         the banks of the Ilissus.~SOCRATES: My dear Phaedrus, whence
 55 Phaedr|         be shut up in a cloister.~SOCRATES: There he is right. Lysias
 56 Phaedr|          temple of Olympian Zeus.~SOCRATES: And how did he entertain
 57 Phaedr|       spare time to accompany me.~SOCRATES: And should I not deem the
 58 Phaedr|         PHAEDRUS: Will you go on?~SOCRATES: And will you go on with
 59 Phaedr|     narration?~PHAEDRUS: My tale, Socrates, is one of your sort, for
 60 Phaedr|   accepted rather than the lover.~SOCRATES: O that is noble of him!
 61 Phaedr|         What do you mean, my good Socrates? How can you imagine that
 62 Phaedr|          a great deal if I could.~SOCRATES: I believe that I know Phaedrus
 63 Phaedr|           to speak as I best can.~SOCRATES: A very true remark, that
 64 Phaedr|         as I say; but believe me, Socrates, I did not learn the very
 65 Phaedr|           begin at the beginning.~SOCRATES: Yes, my sweet one; but
 66 Phaedr|          would you please to sit?~SOCRATES: Let us turn aside and go
 67 Phaedr|        far from being unpleasant.~SOCRATES: Lead on, and look out for
 68 Phaedr|       plane-tree in the distance?~SOCRATES: Yes.~PHAEDRUS: There are
 69 Phaedr|           either sit or lie down.~SOCRATES: Move forward.~PHAEDRUS:
 70 Phaedr|            I should like to know, Socrates, whether the place is not
 71 Phaedr|         the banks of the Ilissus?~SOCRATES: Such is the tradition.~
 72 Phaedr|          be maidens playing near.~SOCRATES: I believe that the spot
 73 Phaedr|           beseech you to tell me, Socrates, do you believe this tale?~
 74 Phaedr|         do you believe this tale?~SOCRATES: The wise are doubtful,
 75 Phaedr|            Yes, this is the tree.~SOCRATES: By Here, a fair resting-place,
 76 Phaedr|   incomprehensible being you are, Socrates: when you are in the country,
 77 Phaedr|           even outside the gates.~SOCRATES: Very true, my good friend;
 78 Phaedr|          and I will answer.’~Now, Socrates, what do you think? Is not
 79 Phaedr|           matter of the language?~SOCRATES: Yes, quite admirable; the
 80 Phaedr|          are pleased to be merry.~SOCRATES: Do you mean that I am not
 81 Phaedr|           don’t talk in that way, Socrates, but let me have your real
 82 Phaedr|       better on the same subject.~SOCRATES: Well, but are you and I
 83 Phaedr|         ways.~PHAEDRUS: Nonsense, Socrates; what you call repetition
 84 Phaedr|      better or more exhaustively.~SOCRATES: There I cannot go along
 85 Phaedr|        anything better than this?~SOCRATES: I am sure that I must have
 86 Phaedr|        you, and as large as life.~SOCRATES: You are a dear golden ass
 87 Phaedr|         the Cypselids at Olympia.~SOCRATES: How profoundly in earnest
 88 Phaedr|           you said to me, ‘I know Socrates as well as I know myself,
 89 Phaedr|        compel me to use violence.~SOCRATES: But, my sweet Phaedrus,
 90 Phaedr|        word that is irresistible.~SOCRATES: Then don’t say it.~PHAEDRUS:
 91 Phaedr|        you have word of another!’~SOCRATES: Villain! I am conquered;
 92 Phaedr|         you still at your tricks?~SOCRATES: I am not going to play
 93 Phaedr|       starved.~PHAEDRUS: Proceed.~SOCRATES: Shall I tell you what I
 94 Phaedr|          will do?~PHAEDRUS: What?~SOCRATES: I will veil my face and
 95 Phaedr|   anything else which you please.~SOCRATES: Come, O ye Muses, melodious,
 96 Phaedr|          inspired?~PHAEDRUS: Yes, Socrates, you seem to have a very
 97 Phaedr|       very unusual flow of words.~SOCRATES: Listen to me, then, in
 98 Phaedr|   PHAEDRUS: Nothing can be truer.~SOCRATES: The responsibility rests
 99 Phaedr|           Why do you not proceed?~SOCRATES: Does not your simplicity
100 Phaedr|           you.~PHAEDRUS: Not yet, Socrates; not until the heat of the
101 Phaedr|          then return in the cool.~SOCRATES: Your love of discourse,
102 Phaedr|       news. But what do you mean?~SOCRATES: I mean to say that as I
103 Phaedr|      error.~PHAEDRUS: What error?~SOCRATES: That was a dreadful speech
104 Phaedr|         as bad.~PHAEDRUS: How so?~SOCRATES: It was foolish, I say,—
105 Phaedr|      really such as you describe.~SOCRATES: Well, and is not Eros the
106 Phaedr|        god?~PHAEDRUS: So men say.~SOCRATES: But that was not acknowledged
107 Phaedr|          than to hear you say so.~SOCRATES: Only think, my good Phaedrus,
108 Phaedr|         PHAEDRUS: I dare say not, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Therefore, because
109 Phaedr|           dare say not, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Therefore, because I blush
110 Phaedr|      discourse on the same theme.~SOCRATES: You will be true to your
111 Phaedr|    PHAEDRUS: Speak, and fear not.~SOCRATES: But where is the fair youth
112 Phaedr|           always at your service.~SOCRATES: Know then, fair youth,
113 Phaedr|   PHAEDRUS: I join in the prayer, Socrates, and say with you, if this
114 Phaedr|         give up writing speeches.~SOCRATES: What a very amusing notion!
115 Phaedr|     earnest?~PHAEDRUS: I thought, Socrates, that he was. And you are
116 Phaedr|     called Sophists by posterity.~SOCRATES: You seem to be unconscious,
117 Phaedr|        mean? I do not understand.~SOCRATES: Why, do you not know that
118 Phaedr|      approvers?~PHAEDRUS: How so?~SOCRATES: Why, he begins in this
119 Phaedr|       authorship?~PHAEDRUS: True.~SOCRATES: And if the law is finally
120 Phaedr|    mourning.~PHAEDRUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: So far are they from despising,
121 Phaedr|      writing.~PHAEDRUS: No doubt.~SOCRATES: And when the king or orator
122 Phaedr|         god?~PHAEDRUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: Then do you think that
123 Phaedr|        his own favourite pursuit.~SOCRATES: Any one may see that there
124 Phaedr|          PHAEDRUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: The disgrace begins when
125 Phaedr|         badly.~PHAEDRUS: Clearly.~SOCRATES: And what is well and what
126 Phaedr|           rightly called slavish.~SOCRATES: There is time enough. And
127 Phaedr|       mean? I never heard of any.~SOCRATES: A lover of music like yourself
128 Phaedr|            PHAEDRUS: Let us talk.~SOCRATES: Shall we discuss the rules
129 Phaedr|   proposing?~PHAEDRUS: Very good.~SOCRATES: In good speaking should
130 Phaedr|         speak?~PHAEDRUS: And yet, Socrates, I have heard that he who
131 Phaedr|           and not from the truth.~SOCRATES: The words of the wise are
132 Phaedr|   dismissed.~PHAEDRUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: Let us put the matter thus:—
133 Phaedr|         That would be ridiculous.~SOCRATES: There is something more
134 Phaedr|         PHAEDRUS: How ridiculous!~SOCRATES: Ridiculous! Yes; but is
135 Phaedr|       enemy?~PHAEDRUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And when the orator instead
136 Phaedr|    PHAEDRUS: The reverse of good.~SOCRATES: But perhaps rhetoric has
137 Phaedr|        lady’s defence of herself.~SOCRATES: Quite true; if only the
138 Phaedr|         what are these arguments, Socrates? Bring them out that we
139 Phaedr|         that we may examine them.~SOCRATES: Come out, fair children,
140 Phaedr|       PHAEDRUS: Put the question.~SOCRATES: Is not rhetoric, taken
141 Phaedr|  assemblies—not extended farther.~SOCRATES: Then I suppose that you
142 Phaedr|          Theodorus your Odysseus.~SOCRATES: Perhaps that is my meaning.
143 Phaedr| contending?~PHAEDRUS: Exactly so.~SOCRATES: About the just and unjust—
144 Phaedr|           dispute?~PHAEDRUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And a professor of the
145 Phaedr|        unjust?~PHAEDRUS: Exactly.~SOCRATES: And when he speaks in the
146 Phaedr|           PHAEDRUS: That is true.~SOCRATES: Have we not heard of the
147 Phaedr|      motion?~PHAEDRUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: The art of disputation,
148 Phaedr|        PHAEDRUS: How do you mean?~SOCRATES: Let me put the matter thus:
149 Phaedr|          the difference is small.~SOCRATES: And you will be less likely
150 Phaedr|        once?~PHAEDRUS: Of course.~SOCRATES: He, then, who would deceive
151 Phaedr|        things?~PHAEDRUS: He must.~SOCRATES: And if he is ignorant of
152 Phaedr|    ignorant?~PHAEDRUS: He cannot.~SOCRATES: And when men are deceived
153 Phaedr|   PHAEDRUS: Yes, that is the way.~SOCRATES: Then he who would be a
154 Phaedr|            PHAEDRUS: He will not.~SOCRATES: He then, who being ignorant
155 Phaedr|   PHAEDRUS: That may be expected.~SOCRATES: Shall I propose that we
156 Phaedr|         wanting in illustrations.~SOCRATES: Yes; and the two speeches
157 Phaedr|       will only please to get on.~SOCRATES: Suppose that you read me
158 Phaedr|        lover. For lovers repent—’~SOCRATES: Enough:—Now, shall I point
159 Phaedr|       those words?~PHAEDRUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Every one is aware that
160 Phaedr|        will you explain yourself?~SOCRATES: When any one speaks of
161 Phaedr|         all?~PHAEDRUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: But when any one speaks
162 Phaedr|   ourselves?~PHAEDRUS: Precisely.~SOCRATES: Then in some things we
163 Phaedr|           PHAEDRUS: That is true.~SOCRATES: In which are we more likely
164 Phaedr|           in the uncertain class.~SOCRATES: Then the rhetorician ought
165 Phaedr|           an excellent principle.~SOCRATES: Yes; and in the next place
166 Phaedr|    referred.~PHAEDRUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Now to which class does
167 Phaedr|           greatest possible good?~SOCRATES: Capital. But will you tell
168 Phaedr|          you did, and no mistake.~SOCRATES: Then I perceive that the
169 Phaedr|           not find what you want.~SOCRATES: Read, that I may have his
170 Phaedr|         when their love is over.’~SOCRATES: Here he appears to have
171 Phaedr|            PHAEDRUS: Yes, indeed, Socrates; he does begin at the end.~
172 Phaedr|         he does begin at the end.~SOCRATES: Then as to the other topics—
173 Phaedr|        principles of composition.~SOCRATES: At any rate, you will allow
174 Phaedr|       whole?~PHAEDRUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Can this be said of the
175 Phaedr|        remarkable in the epitaph?~SOCRATES: It is as follows:—~‘I am
176 Phaedr|          of that oration of ours.~SOCRATES: Well, I will say no more
177 Phaedr|            PHAEDRUS: In what way?~SOCRATES: The two speeches, as you
178 Phaedr|     PHAEDRUS: And right manfully.~SOCRATES: You should rather say ‘
179 Phaedr|          madness.’~PHAEDRUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And of madness there were
180 Phaedr|       convention.~PHAEDRUS: True.~SOCRATES: The divine madness was
181 Phaedr|     pleasure in listening to you.~SOCRATES: Let us take this instance
182 Phaedr|       PHAEDRUS: What do you mean?~SOCRATES: I mean to say that the
183 Phaedr|          PHAEDRUS: What are they?~SOCRATES: First, the comprehension
184 Phaedr|           is the other principle, Socrates?~SOCRATES: The second principle
185 Phaedr|        other principle, Socrates?~SOCRATES: The second principle is
186 Phaedr|    benefits.~PHAEDRUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: I am myself a great lover
187 Phaedr|          the dark about rhetoric.~SOCRATES: What do you mean? The remains
188 Phaedr|       found in books of rhetoric?~SOCRATES: Yes; thank you for reminding
189 Phaedr|           the art?~PHAEDRUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Then follows the statement
190 Phaedr|          the excellent Theodorus.~SOCRATES: Yes; and he tells how refutation
191 Phaedr|    PHAEDRUS: Well done, Prodicus!~SOCRATES: Then there is Hippias the
192 Phaedr|          with him.~PHAEDRUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And there is also Polus,
193 Phaedr|       something of the same sort?~SOCRATES: Yes, rules of correct diction
194 Phaedr|       remind the hearers of them.~SOCRATES: I have now said all that
195 Phaedr|           nothing very important.~SOCRATES: Leave the unimportant and
196 Phaedr|         power in public meetings.~SOCRATES: It has. But I should like
197 Phaedr|        PHAEDRUS: Give an example.~SOCRATES: I will. Suppose a person
198 Phaedr|            when,’ and ‘how much.’~SOCRATES: And suppose that he were
199 Phaedr|           of the art of medicine.~SOCRATES: And suppose a person were
200 Phaedr|         another and to the whole.~SOCRATES: But I do not suppose that
201 Phaedr|     itself.’~PHAEDRUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And will not Sophocles
202 Phaedr|  physician?~PHAEDRUS: Quite true.~SOCRATES: And if Adrastus the mellifluous
203 Phaedr|     little patience, Phaedrus and Socrates, they would say; you should
204 Phaedr|          PHAEDRUS: I quite admit, Socrates, that the art of rhetoric
205 Phaedr|     persuasion is to be acquired.~SOCRATES: The perfection which is
206 Phaedr|           In what direction then?~SOCRATES: I conceive Pericles to
207 Phaedr|           PHAEDRUS: What of that?~SOCRATES: All the great arts require
208 Phaedr|      speaking.~PHAEDRUS: Explain.~SOCRATES: Rhetoric is like medicine.~
209 Phaedr|       medicine.~PHAEDRUS: How so?~SOCRATES: Why, because medicine has
210 Phaedr|        training.~PHAEDRUS: There, Socrates, I suspect that you are
211 Phaedr|       suspect that you are right.~SOCRATES: And do you think that you
212 Phaedr|       whole. (Compare Charmides.)~SOCRATES: Yes, friend, and he was
213 Phaedr|        nature.~PHAEDRUS: I agree.~SOCRATES: Then consider what truth
214 Phaedr|         may very likely be right, Socrates.~SOCRATES: The method which
215 Phaedr|        likely be right, Socrates.~SOCRATES: The method which proceeds
216 Phaedr|        soul.~PHAEDRUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: His whole effort is directed
217 Phaedr|        conviction.~PHAEDRUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Then clearly, Thrasymachus
218 Phaedr|          soul.~PHAEDRUS: Exactly.~SOCRATES: He will explain, secondly,
219 Phaedr|       acted upon.~PHAEDRUS: True.~SOCRATES: Thirdly, having classified
220 Phaedr|         hit upon a very good way.~SOCRATES: Yes, that is the true and
221 Phaedr|     PHAEDRUS: What is our method?~SOCRATES: I cannot give you the exact
222 Phaedr|            PHAEDRUS: Let me hear.~SOCRATES: Oratory is the art of enchanting
223 Phaedr|        say, is this, Phaedrus and Socrates, your account of the so-called
224 Phaedr|      PHAEDRUS: He must take this, Socrates, for there is no possibility
225 Phaedr|          such an art is not easy.~SOCRATES: Very true; and therefore
226 Phaedr|           I can think of nothing.~SOCRATES: Suppose I tell you something
227 Phaedr|          me.~PHAEDRUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: May not ‘the wolf,’ as
228 Phaedr|         what can be said for him.~SOCRATES: He will argue that there
229 Phaedr|         rhetoric do actually say, Socrates. I have not forgotten that
230 Phaedr|           point is all-important.~SOCRATES: I dare say that you are
231 Phaedr|     PHAEDRUS: Certainly, he does.~SOCRATES: I believe that he has a
232 Phaedr|    Phaedrus?~PHAEDRUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Bless me, what a wonderfully
233 Phaedr|         What shall we say to him?~SOCRATES: Let us tell him that, before
234 Phaedr|          here.~PHAEDRUS: I think, Socrates, that this is admirable,
235 Phaedr|   admirable, if only practicable.~SOCRATES: But even to fail in an
236 Phaedr|       honourable.~PHAEDRUS: True.~SOCRATES: Enough appears to have
237 Phaedr|    speaking.~PHAEDRUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: But there is something
238 Phaedr|           writing.~PHAEDRUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Do you know how you can
239 Phaedr|     PHAEDRUS: No, indeed. Do you?~SOCRATES: I have heard a tradition
240 Phaedr|          say that you have heard.~SOCRATES: At the Egyptian city of
241 Phaedr|           reality.~PHAEDRUS: Yes, Socrates, you can easily invent tales
242 Phaedr|          or of any other country.~SOCRATES: There was a tradition in
243 Phaedr|           his view about letters.~SOCRATES: He would be a very simple
244 Phaedr|      PHAEDRUS: That is most true.~SOCRATES: I cannot help feeling,
245 Phaedr|          That again is most true.~SOCRATES: Is there not another kind
246 Phaedr|           and what is his origin?~SOCRATES: I mean an intelligent word
247 Phaedr|   properly no more than an image?~SOCRATES: Yes, of course that is
248 Phaedr|        perfection?~PHAEDRUS: Yes, Socrates, that will be his way when
249 Phaedr|         as you say, only in play.~SOCRATES: And can we suppose that
250 Phaedr|          PHAEDRUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: Then he will not seriously
251 Phaedr|           No, that is not likely.~SOCRATES: No, that is not likely—
252 Phaedr|       spent.~PHAEDRUS: A pastime, Socrates, as noble as the other is
253 Phaedr|       about justice and the like.~SOCRATES: True, Phaedrus. But nobler
254 Phaedr|            Far nobler, certainly.~SOCRATES: And now, Phaedrus, having
255 Phaedr|            About what conclusion?~SOCRATES: About Lysias, whom we censured,
256 Phaedr|       would repeat what was said.~SOCRATES: Until a man knows the truth
257 Phaedr|          was our view, certainly.~SOCRATES: Secondly, as to the censure
258 Phaedr|       show—?~PHAEDRUS: Show what?~SOCRATES: That whether Lysias or
259 Phaedr|       world.~PHAEDRUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: But he who thinks that
260 Phaedr|   assuredly my desire and prayer.~SOCRATES: And now the play is played
261 Phaedr|         would you assign to them?~SOCRATES: Wise, I may not call them;
262 Phaedr|          PHAEDRUS: Very suitable.~SOCRATES: And he who cannot rise
263 Phaedr|   law-maker.~PHAEDRUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Now go and tell this to
264 Phaedr|        ought not to be forgotten.~SOCRATES: Who is he?~PHAEDRUS: Isocrates
265 Phaedr|        how shall we describe him?~SOCRATES: Isocrates is still young,
266 Phaedr|          What would you prophesy?~SOCRATES: I think that he has a genius
267 Phaedr|          is abated let us depart.~SOCRATES: Should we not offer up
268 Phaedr|           PHAEDRUS: By all means.~SOCRATES: Beloved Pan, and all ye
269 Phaedr|        have all things in common.~SOCRATES: Let us go.~