Dialogue

  1 Phaedr|                   INTRODUCTION~The Phaedrus is closely connected with
  2 Phaedr|       figure of speech. But in the Phaedrus and Symposium love and philosophy
  3 Phaedr|          forward, and which in the Phaedrus, as well as in the Phaedo,
  4 Phaedr|           freedom of conversation.~Phaedrus has been spending the morning
  5 Phaedr|          As they are on their way, Phaedrus asks the opinion of Socrates
  6 Phaedr|          convenient resting-place, Phaedrus pulls out the speech and
  7 Phaedr|       which are equally unmeaning. Phaedrus is captivated with the beauty
  8 Phaedr|        haste. He cannot agree with Phaedrus in the extreme value which
  9 Phaedr|      speakers must equally employ.~Phaedrus is delighted at the prospect
 10 Phaedr|           is preparing to go away.~Phaedrus begs him to remain, at any
 11 Phaedr|          did so in order to please Phaedrus. If I said what was wrong
 12 Phaedr|           not mislead his disciple Phaedrus.~Phaedrus is afraid that
 13 Phaedr|     mislead his disciple Phaedrus.~Phaedrus is afraid that he will lose
 14 Phaedr|          This is the message which Phaedrus undertakes to carry to Lysias
 15 Phaedr|           the nymphs, Socrates and Phaedrus depart.~There are two principal
 16 Phaedr|         have been raised about the Phaedrus; the first relates to the
 17 Phaedr|           raised as to whether the Phaedrus treated of love or rhetoric.
 18 Phaedr|    determined.~The subjects of the Phaedrus (exclusive of the short
 19 Phaedr|          says, ‘in order to please Phaedrus.’ The speech of Lysias which
 20 Phaedr|            Lysias which has thrown Phaedrus into an ecstacy is adduced
 21 Phaedr|        sight. At the same time the Phaedrus, although one of the most
 22 Phaedr|          there were some who, like Phaedrus, felt a delight in the harmonious
 23 Phaedr|        ourselves. To return to the Phaedrus:—~Both speeches are strongly
 24 Phaedr|           Phaedo as well as of the Phaedrus seems to show that at one
 25 Phaedr|        meanings of a work like the Phaedrus, which indicates so much
 26 Phaedr|         note on Symposium.)~In the Phaedrus, as well as in the Symposium,
 27 Phaedr|   dissecting them? Young men, like Phaedrus, are enamoured of their
 28 Phaedr|       sketch of Socrates, lest, as Phaedrus says, the argument should
 29 Phaedr|        there. The late date of the Phaedrus will have to be established
 30 Phaedr|           closely connected as the Phaedrus and Symposium, there is
 31 Phaedr|           far wrong in placing the Phaedrus in the neighbourhood of
 32 Phaedr|            poetical element in the Phaedrus, which, while falling short
 33 Phaedr|           sophistical’ interest of Phaedrus, the little touch about
 34 Phaedr|           of Plato, especially the Phaedrus, Symposium, and portions
 35 Phaedr|           purposes of Plato in the Phaedrus is to satirize Rhetoric,
 36 Phaedr|       classes at Athens; so in the Phaedrus, chiefly in the latter part,
 37 Phaedr|     interval which separated them (Phaedrus). It is the interval which
 38 Phaedr|                                    PHAEDRUS~PERSONS OF THE DIALOGUE:
 39 Phaedr|            THE DIALOGUE: Socrates, Phaedrus.~SCENE: Under a plane-tree,
 40 Phaedr|         Ilissus.~SOCRATES: My dear Phaedrus, whence come you, and whither
 41 Phaedr|         and whither are you going?~PHAEDRUS: I come from Lysias the
 42 Phaedr|          suppose, was in the town?~PHAEDRUS: Yes, he was staying with
 43 Phaedr|          you a feast of discourse?~PHAEDRUS: You shall hear, if you
 44 Phaedr|       Pindar, ‘than any business’?~PHAEDRUS: Will you go on?~SOCRATES:
 45 Phaedr|          go on with the narration?~PHAEDRUS: My tale, Socrates, is one
 46 Phaedr|           I will keep you company.~PHAEDRUS: What do you mean, my good
 47 Phaedr|    SOCRATES: I believe that I know Phaedrus about as well as I know
 48 Phaedr|            would or no. Therefore, Phaedrus, bid him do at once what
 49 Phaedr|          do whether bidden or not.~PHAEDRUS: I see that you will not
 50 Phaedr|        true remark, that of yours.~PHAEDRUS: I will do as I say; but
 51 Phaedr|          have Lysias himself here.~PHAEDRUS: Enough; I see that I have
 52 Phaedr|           down at some quiet spot.~PHAEDRUS: I am fortunate in not having
 53 Phaedr|          in which we can sit down.~PHAEDRUS: Do you see the tallest
 54 Phaedr|           distance?~SOCRATES: Yes.~PHAEDRUS: There are shade and gentle
 55 Phaedr|            SOCRATES: Move forward.~PHAEDRUS: I should like to know,
 56 Phaedr|             Such is the tradition.~PHAEDRUS: And is this the exact spot?
 57 Phaedr|            of Boreas at the place.~PHAEDRUS: I have never noticed it;
 58 Phaedr|            you were conducting us?~PHAEDRUS: Yes, this is the tree.~
 59 Phaedr|       sloping to the head. My dear Phaedrus, you have been an admirable
 60 Phaedr|           been an admirable guide.~PHAEDRUS: What an incomprehensible
 61 Phaedr|          you can read best. Begin.~PHAEDRUS: Listen. You know how matters
 62 Phaedr|             And this I owe to you, Phaedrus, for I observed you while
 63 Phaedr|           inspired with a phrenzy.~PHAEDRUS: Indeed, you are pleased
 64 Phaedr|          that I am not in earnest?~PHAEDRUS: Now don’t talk in that
 65 Phaedr|        thing in two or three ways.~PHAEDRUS: Nonsense, Socrates; what
 66 Phaedr|    complaisance I assented to you.~PHAEDRUS: Who are they, and where
 67 Phaedr|    stupidity who was my informant.~PHAEDRUS: That is grand:—but never
 68 Phaedr|           may be some originality.~PHAEDRUS: I admit that there is reason
 69 Phaedr|      finger upon his love! And so, Phaedrus, you really imagine that
 70 Phaedr|           the ingenuity of Lysias?~PHAEDRUS: There I have you as you
 71 Phaedr|            SOCRATES: But, my sweet Phaedrus, how ridiculous it would
 72 Phaedr|          and I am an untaught man.~PHAEDRUS: You see how matters stand;
 73 Phaedr|       SOCRATES: Then don’t say it.~PHAEDRUS: Yes, but I will; and my
 74 Phaedr|      discourse has no more to say.~PHAEDRUS: Then why are you still
 75 Phaedr|        allow myself to be starved.~PHAEDRUS: Proceed.~SOCRATES: Shall
 76 Phaedr|           tell you what I will do?~PHAEDRUS: What?~SOCRATES: I will
 77 Phaedr|          and not know what to say.~PHAEDRUS: Only go on and you may
 78 Phaedr|    erromenos eros).’~And now, dear Phaedrus, I shall pause for an instant
 79 Phaedr|        appear to myself, inspired?~PHAEDRUS: Yes, Socrates, you seem
 80 Phaedr|         getting into dithyrambics.~PHAEDRUS: Nothing can be truer.~SOCRATES:
 81 Phaedr|        better make an end; enough.~PHAEDRUS: I thought that you were
 82 Phaedr|          inflicted upon me by you.~PHAEDRUS: Not yet, Socrates; not
 83 Phaedr|            Your love of discourse, Phaedrus, is superhuman, simply marvellous,
 84 Phaedr|         been the cause of another.~PHAEDRUS: That is good news. But
 85 Phaedr|          Now I recognize my error.~PHAEDRUS: What error?~SOCRATES: That
 86 Phaedr|          made me utter one as bad.~PHAEDRUS: How so?~SOCRATES: It was
 87 Phaedr|         anything be more dreadful?~PHAEDRUS: Nothing, if the speech
 88 Phaedr|           of Aphrodite, and a god?~PHAEDRUS: So men say.~SOCRATES: But
 89 Phaedr|            forehead bold and bare.~PHAEDRUS: Nothing could be more agreeable
 90 Phaedr|      SOCRATES: Only think, my good Phaedrus, what an utter want of delicacy
 91 Phaedr|            justice of our censure?~PHAEDRUS: I dare say not, Socrates.~
 92 Phaedr|         rather than the non-lover.~PHAEDRUS: Be assured that he shall.
 93 Phaedr|           therefore I believe you.~PHAEDRUS: Speak, and fear not.~SOCRATES:
 94 Phaedr|            knows what he is doing?~PHAEDRUS: He is close at hand, and
 95 Phaedr|          discourse was the word of Phaedrus, the son of Vain Man, who
 96 Phaedr|          compelled to use, because Phaedrus would have them. And now
 97 Phaedr|           eyes of the fair. And if Phaedrus or I myself said anything
 98 Phaedr|    Polemarchus; and then his lover Phaedrus will no longer halt between
 99 Phaedr|          philosophical discourses.~PHAEDRUS: I join in the prayer, Socrates,
100 Phaedr|          assailant was in earnest?~PHAEDRUS: I thought, Socrates, that
101 Phaedr|            seem to be unconscious, Phaedrus, that the ‘sweet elbow’ (
102 Phaedr|          out of gratitude to them.~PHAEDRUS: What do you mean? I do
103 Phaedr|            names of his approvers?~PHAEDRUS: How so?~SOCRATES: Why,
104 Phaedr|       regular piece of authorship?~PHAEDRUS: True.~SOCRATES: And if
105 Phaedr|         his party are in mourning.~PHAEDRUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: So
106 Phaedr|           the practice of writing.~PHAEDRUS: No doubt.~SOCRATES: And
107 Phaedr|            yet alive, to be a god?~PHAEDRUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: Then
108 Phaedr|       Lysias with being an author?~PHAEDRUS: Not upon your view; for
109 Phaedr|          the mere fact of writing.~PHAEDRUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES:
110 Phaedr|        writes not well, but badly.~PHAEDRUS: Clearly.~SOCRATES: And
111 Phaedr|          writer, to teach us this?~PHAEDRUS: Need we? For what should
112 Phaedr|            may impart them to men.~PHAEDRUS: What gifts do you mean?
113 Phaedr|           not to sleep at mid-day.~PHAEDRUS: Let us talk.~SOCRATES:
114 Phaedr|       speech as we were proposing?~PHAEDRUS: Very good.~SOCRATES: In
115 Phaedr|        which he is going to speak?~PHAEDRUS: And yet, Socrates, I have
116 Phaedr|           hastily to be dismissed.~PHAEDRUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: Let
117 Phaedr|        which has the longest ears.~PHAEDRUS: That would be ridiculous.~
118 Phaedr|        carry baggage or anything.’~PHAEDRUS: How ridiculous!~SOCRATES:
119 Phaedr|       better than a cunning enemy?~PHAEDRUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And
120 Phaedr|           the sowing of that seed?~PHAEDRUS: The reverse of good.~SOCRATES:
121 Phaedr|         you the art of persuasion.~PHAEDRUS: There is reason in the
122 Phaedr|           divorced from the truth.~PHAEDRUS: And what are these arguments,
123 Phaedr|        fair children, and convince Phaedrus, who is the father of similar
124 Phaedr|   knowledge of philosophy. And let Phaedrus answer you.~PHAEDRUS: Put
125 Phaedr|           let Phaedrus answer you.~PHAEDRUS: Put the question.~SOCRATES:
126 Phaedr|            is what you have heard?~PHAEDRUS: Nay, not exactly that;
127 Phaedr|         the rhetoric of Palamedes?~PHAEDRUS: No more than of Nestor
128 Phaedr|           are they not contending?~PHAEDRUS: Exactly so.~SOCRATES: About
129 Phaedr|          is the matter in dispute?~PHAEDRUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And a professor
130 Phaedr|            inclined, to be unjust?~PHAEDRUS: Exactly.~SOCRATES: And
131 Phaedr|          time the reverse of good?~PHAEDRUS: That is true.~SOCRATES:
132 Phaedr|             at rest and in motion?~PHAEDRUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: The
133 Phaedr|          which are used by others?~PHAEDRUS: How do you mean?~SOCRATES:
134 Phaedr|      difference is large or small?~PHAEDRUS: When the difference is
135 Phaedr|           when you go all at once?~PHAEDRUS: Of course.~SOCRATES: He,
136 Phaedr|         and differences of things?~PHAEDRUS: He must.~SOCRATES: And
137 Phaedr|         hypothesis he is ignorant?~PHAEDRUS: He cannot.~SOCRATES: And
138 Phaedr|           in through resemblances?~PHAEDRUS: Yes, that is the way.~SOCRATES:
139 Phaedr|  resemblances, or how to avoid it?~PHAEDRUS: He will not.~SOCRATES:
140 Phaedr|          and is not an art at all?~PHAEDRUS: That may be expected.~SOCRATES:
141 Phaedr|        hand, and in my own speech?~PHAEDRUS: Nothing could be better;
142 Phaedr|          rhetorical art of my own.~PHAEDRUS: Granted; if you will only
143 Phaedr|           words of Lysias’ speech.~PHAEDRUS: ‘You know how matters stand
144 Phaedr|   rhetorical error of those words?~PHAEDRUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Every one
145 Phaedr|            other things we differ.~PHAEDRUS: I think that I understand
146 Phaedr|       present in the minds of all?~PHAEDRUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: But
147 Phaedr|        another and with ourselves?~PHAEDRUS: Precisely.~SOCRATES: Then
148 Phaedr|          agree, but not in others?~PHAEDRUS: That is true.~SOCRATES:
149 Phaedr|        rhetoric the greater power?~PHAEDRUS: Clearly, in the uncertain
150 Phaedr|          in which they do not err?~PHAEDRUS: He who made such a distinction
151 Phaedr|           they are to be referred.~PHAEDRUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Now
152 Phaedr|           to the undisputed class?~PHAEDRUS: To the debatable, clearly;
153 Phaedr|            I cannot well remember.~PHAEDRUS: Yes, indeed; that you did,
154 Phaedr|          his beginning over again:~PHAEDRUS: If you please; but you
155 Phaedr|          may have his exact words.~PHAEDRUS: ‘You know how matters stand
156 Phaedr|       ended. Am I not right, sweet Phaedrus?~PHAEDRUS: Yes, indeed,
157 Phaedr|         not right, sweet Phaedrus?~PHAEDRUS: Yes, indeed, Socrates;
158 Phaedr|          parts of the composition?~PHAEDRUS: You have too good an opinion
159 Phaedr|          another and to the whole?~PHAEDRUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Can
160 Phaedr|       grave of Midas the Phrygian.~PHAEDRUS: What is there remarkable
161 Phaedr|     perceive, makes no difference.~PHAEDRUS: You are making fun of that
162 Phaedr|           to students of rhetoric.~PHAEDRUS: In what way?~SOCRATES:
163 Phaedr|    non-lover ought to be accepted.~PHAEDRUS: And right manfully.~SOCRATES:
164 Phaedr|         said, ‘love is a madness.’~PHAEDRUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And of madness
165 Phaedr|          of custom and convention.~PHAEDRUS: True.~SOCRATES: The divine
166 Phaedr|           your lord and also mine, Phaedrus, and the guardian of fair
167 Phaedr|        measured and solemn strain.~PHAEDRUS: I know that I had great
168 Phaedr|         made from blame to praise.~PHAEDRUS: What do you mean?~SOCRATES:
169 Phaedr|          if art could give us one.~PHAEDRUS: What are they?~SOCRATES:
170 Phaedr|            make his meaning clear.~PHAEDRUS: What is the other principle,
171 Phaedr|          of the greatest benefits.~PHAEDRUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: I
172 Phaedr|            to bring gifts to them.~PHAEDRUS: Yes, they are royal men;
173 Phaedr|          me. But how much is left?~PHAEDRUS: There is a great deal surely
174 Phaedr|           the niceties of the art?~PHAEDRUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Then follows
175 Phaedr|          and further confirmation.~PHAEDRUS: You mean the excellent
176 Phaedr|            of a convenient length.~PHAEDRUS: Well done, Prodicus!~SOCRATES:
177 Phaedr|          probably agrees with him.~PHAEDRUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And there
178 Phaedr|        they were to give a polish.~PHAEDRUS: Had not Protagoras something
179 Phaedr|        agree to use the same word.~PHAEDRUS: You mean that there should
180 Phaedr|          have you anything to add?~PHAEDRUS: Not much; nothing very
181 Phaedr|         art of rhetoric, and when?~PHAEDRUS: A very great power in public
182 Phaedr|           many holes in their web.~PHAEDRUS: Give an example.~SOCRATES:
183 Phaedr|       suppose that they would say?~PHAEDRUS: They would be sure to ask
184 Phaedr|         these things for himself’?~PHAEDRUS: They would say in reply
185 Phaedr|      teaching the art of tragedy—?~PHAEDRUS: They too would surely laugh
186 Phaedr|           and not harmony itself.’~PHAEDRUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And
187 Phaedr|            the would-be physician?~PHAEDRUS: Quite true.~SOCRATES: And
188 Phaedr|            Have a little patience, Phaedrus and Socrates, they would
189 Phaedr|          may make for themselves.’~PHAEDRUS: I quite admit, Socrates,
190 Phaedr|            Lysias or Thrasymachus.~PHAEDRUS: In what direction then?~
191 Phaedr|      accomplished of rhetoricians.~PHAEDRUS: What of that?~SOCRATES:
192 Phaedr|            to the art of speaking.~PHAEDRUS: Explain.~SOCRATES: Rhetoric
193 Phaedr|         Rhetoric is like medicine.~PHAEDRUS: How so?~SOCRATES: Why,
194 Phaedr| application of words and training.~PHAEDRUS: There, Socrates, I suspect
195 Phaedr|           the nature of the whole?~PHAEDRUS: Hippocrates the Asclepiad
196 Phaedr|          his conception of nature.~PHAEDRUS: I agree.~SOCRATES: Then
197 Phaedr|          them to be what they are?~PHAEDRUS: You may very likely be
198 Phaedr|          conceive, to be the soul.~PHAEDRUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: His
199 Phaedr|       seeks to produce conviction.~PHAEDRUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Then clearly,
200 Phaedr|            the nature of the soul.~PHAEDRUS: Exactly.~SOCRATES: He will
201 Phaedr|         she acts or is acted upon.~PHAEDRUS: True.~SOCRATES: Thirdly,
202 Phaedr|         argument, and another not.~PHAEDRUS: You have hit upon a very
203 Phaedr|        they write by rules of art?~PHAEDRUS: What is our method?~SOCRATES:
204 Phaedr|         according to rules of art.~PHAEDRUS: Let me hear.~SOCRATES:
205 Phaedr|         teacher will say, is this, Phaedrus and Socrates, your account
206 Phaedr|          am I to look for another?~PHAEDRUS: He must take this, Socrates,
207 Phaedr|         might be of service to us.~PHAEDRUS: If trying would avail,
208 Phaedr|        somebody who knows told me.~PHAEDRUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: May
209 Phaedr|           says, ‘claim a hearing’?~PHAEDRUS: Do you say what can be
210 Phaedr|           furnishes the whole art.~PHAEDRUS: That is what the professors
211 Phaedr|         that which the many think?~PHAEDRUS: Certainly, he does.~SOCRATES:
212 Phaedr|            system. Am I not right, Phaedrus?~PHAEDRUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES:
213 Phaedr|          Am I not right, Phaedrus?~PHAEDRUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Bless
214 Phaedr|          say a word to him or not?~PHAEDRUS: What shall we say to him?~
215 Phaedr|         has a fair beginning here.~PHAEDRUS: I think, Socrates, that
216 Phaedr|   honourable object is honourable.~PHAEDRUS: True.~SOCRATES: Enough
217 Phaedr|         and false art of speaking.~PHAEDRUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: But
218 Phaedr|            impropriety of writing.~PHAEDRUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Do you know
219 Phaedr|         will be acceptable to God?~PHAEDRUS: No, indeed. Do you?~SOCRATES:
220 Phaedr|         about the opinions of men?~PHAEDRUS: Your question needs no
221 Phaedr|        wisdom without the reality.~PHAEDRUS: Yes, Socrates, you can
222 Phaedr|            country the tale comes.~PHAEDRUS: I acknowledge the justice
223 Phaedr|  recollection of the same matters?~PHAEDRUS: That is most true.~SOCRATES:
224 Phaedr|             I cannot help feeling, Phaedrus, that writing is unfortunately
225 Phaedr|      protect or defend themselves.~PHAEDRUS: That again is most true.~
226 Phaedr|             but lawfully begotten?~PHAEDRUS: Whom do you mean, and what
227 Phaedr|       speak and when to be silent.~PHAEDRUS: You mean the living word
228 Phaedr|         sown arrive at perfection?~PHAEDRUS: Yes, Socrates, that will
229 Phaedr|   husbandman, about his own seeds?~PHAEDRUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES:
230 Phaedr|        truth adequately to others?~PHAEDRUS: No, that is not likely.~
231 Phaedr|          which his days are spent.~PHAEDRUS: A pastime, Socrates, as
232 Phaedr|          the like.~SOCRATES: True, Phaedrus. But nobler far is the serious
233 Phaedr|         extent of human happiness.~PHAEDRUS: Far nobler, certainly.~
234 Phaedr|      certainly.~SOCRATES: And now, Phaedrus, having agreed upon the
235 Phaedr|       decide about the conclusion.~PHAEDRUS: About what conclusion?~
236 Phaedr|           of art and its opposite.~PHAEDRUS: Yes, I think with you;
237 Phaedr|          whole preceding argument.~PHAEDRUS: Yes, that was our view,
238 Phaedr|           previous argument show—?~PHAEDRUS: Show what?~SOCRATES: That
239 Phaedr|       applause of the whole world.~PHAEDRUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: But
240 Phaedr|        sort of man; and you and I, Phaedrus, would pray that we may
241 Phaedr|            we may become like him.~PHAEDRUS: That is most assuredly
242 Phaedr|     serious pursuit of their life.~PHAEDRUS: What name would you assign
243 Phaedr|        modest and befitting title.~PHAEDRUS: Very suitable.~SOCRATES:
244 Phaedr|         speech-maker or law-maker.~PHAEDRUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Now
245 Phaedr|            this to your companion.~PHAEDRUS: But there is also a friend
246 Phaedr|    forgotten.~SOCRATES: Who is he?~PHAEDRUS: Isocrates the fair:—What
247 Phaedr|          Isocrates is still young, Phaedrus; but I am willing to hazard
248 Phaedr|           prophecy concerning him.~PHAEDRUS: What would you prophesy?~
249 Phaedr|           to Lysias, who is yours.~PHAEDRUS: I will; and now as the
250 Phaedr|          all to the local deities?~PHAEDRUS: By all means.~SOCRATES:
251 Phaedr|           think, is enough for me.~PHAEDRUS: Ask the same for me, for