Dialogue

  1 Phileb|           elements, the mixture of pleasures, or of pleasure and pain,
  2 Phileb|         the fourth or highest.~(5) Pleasures are of two kinds, the mixed
  3 Phileb|        mixed and unmixed. Of mixed pleasures there are three classes—(
  4 Phileb|            those in which both the pleasures and pains are corporeal,
  5 Phileb|            both mental. Of unmixed pleasures there are four kinds: those
  6 Phileb|           First, we admit the pure pleasures and the pure sciences; secondly,
  7 Phileb|       sciences, but not the impure pleasures. We have next to discover
  8 Phileb|        opinion; the fifth, to pure pleasures; and here the Muse says ‘
  9 Phileb|         far as they are good, even pleasures, which are for the most
 10 Phileb|          test of definiteness, the pleasures of the body are more capable
 11 Phileb|       being defined than any other pleasures. As in art and knowledge
 12 Phileb|         permanence of intellectual pleasures. But to us the distinction
 13 Phileb|        necessary and non-necessary pleasures. But he is also in advance
 14 Phileb|          hence not even the bodily pleasures are to be spoken of as generations,
 15 Phileb|       attempts to identify vicious pleasures with some form of error,
 16 Phileb|            distinction between the pleasures and the erroneous opinions
 17 Phileb|  simultaneousness of merely bodily pleasures and pains. We may, perhaps,
 18 Phileb|            pain of thirst with the pleasures of drinking; they are not
 19 Phileb|         considered that the bodily pleasures, except in certain extreme
 20 Phileb|             The desire to classify pleasures as accompanied or not accompanied
 21 Phileb|           place under one head the pleasures of smell and sight, as well
 22 Phileb|            a separate class of the pleasures of smell, having no association
 23 Phileb|        natural and artificial. The pleasures of sight and sound might
 24 Phileb|            Socrates dilates on the pleasures of itching and scratching.
 25 Phileb|      opposition which exists among pleasures. For there are pleasures
 26 Phileb|           pleasures. For there are pleasures of all kinds, good and bad,
 27 Phileb|          and bad, wise and foolish—pleasures of the temperate as well
 28 Phileb|   Protarchus replies that although pleasures may be opposed in so far
 29 Phileb|           sources, nevertheless as pleasures they are alike. Yes, retorts
 30 Phileb|         predicate (i.e. ‘good’) to pleasures in general, when he cannot
 31 Phileb|         Here is our first class of pleasures. And another class of pleasures
 32 Phileb|    pleasures. And another class of pleasures and pains are hopes and
 33 Phileb|          only. And inasmuch as the pleasures are unalloyed by pains and
 34 Phileb|          by pains and the pains by pleasures, the examination of them
 35 Phileb|           of another class. But if pleasures and pains consist in the
 36 Phileb|        sorrow.~The second class of pleasures involves memory. There are
 37 Phileb|        question is raised: May not pleasures, like opinions, be true
 38 Phileb|   qualities may be attributed; for pleasures as well as opinions may
 39 Phileb|           there are true and false pleasures, we all acknowledge that
 40 Phileb|    acknowledge that there are some pleasures associated with right opinion,
 41 Phileb|            must also represent the pleasures and pains of anticipation—
 42 Phileb|         proceeds to show that some pleasures are false from another point
 43 Phileb|           from the soul, and hence pleasures and pains are often simultaneous.
 44 Phileb|         relation? In this case the pleasures and pains are not false
 45 Phileb|    examination of the most intense pleasures. Now these are the pleasures
 46 Phileb|       pleasures. Now these are the pleasures of the body, not of the
 47 Phileb|         body, not of the mind; the pleasures of disease and not of health,
 48 Phileb|     disease and not of health, the pleasures of the intemperate and not
 49 Phileb|           of the intensity of such pleasures, and this is given them
 50 Phileb|           But there are also mixed pleasures which are in the mind only.
 51 Phileb|            Next follow the unmixed pleasures; which, unlike the philosophers
 52 Phileb|          to be real. These unmixed pleasures are: (1) The pleasures derived
 53 Phileb|     unmixed pleasures are: (1) The pleasures derived from beauty of form,
 54 Phileb|       unalloyed with pain: (2) The pleasures derived from the acquisition
 55 Phileb|           we admit that the latter pleasures are the property of a very
 56 Phileb|          To these pure and unmixed pleasures we ascribe measure, whereas
 57 Phileb|          There are pure and impure pleasures—pure and impure sciences.
 58 Phileb|             And now we turn to the pleasures; shall I admit them? ‘Admit
 59 Phileb|        Admit first of all the pure pleasures; secondly, the necessary.’
 60 Phileb|           the rest? First, ask the pleasures—they will be too happy to
 61 Phileb|         would rather only have the pleasures of health and temperance,
 62 Phileb|         unseemly, and the greatest pleasures are put out of sight.~Not
 63 Phileb|          opinions.~Fifth, painless pleasures.~Of a sixth class, I have
 64 Phileb|            question was asked: ‘Do pleasures differ in kind? and are
 65 Phileb|        bodily and there are mental pleasures, which were at first confused
 66 Phileb|          necessary and unnecessary pleasures; and again between pleasures
 67 Phileb|       pleasures; and again between pleasures which had or had not corresponding
 68 Phileb|           and relative, or do some pleasures partake of truth and Being?’
 69 Phileb|           upon a right estimate of pleasures greater or less when seen
 70 Phileb|            that they may enjoy the pleasures of intemperance, and courageous
 71 Phileb|           him. In the Republic the pleasures of knowledge are affirmed
 72 Phileb|            to be superior to other pleasures, because the philosopher
 73 Phileb|    reluctantly, perhaps, that some pleasures, i.e. those which have no
 74 Phileb|        bodily self-indulgence, the pleasures of intellect and the pleasures
 75 Phileb|     pleasures of intellect and the pleasures of sense, are so different:—
 76 Phileb|     pleasure in the world. But all pleasures are not the same: they differ
 77 Phileb|      mankind?’~The admissions that pleasures differ in kind, and that
 78 Phileb|          he would have denied that pleasures differed in kind, or that
 79 Phileb|         and the relation of bodily pleasures to mental, which is hardly
 80 Phileb|            that all these opposite pleasures are severally alike!~PROTARCHUS:
 81 Phileb|           similar opposition among pleasures.~PROTARCHUS: Very likely;
 82 Phileb|       argue, as we are doing, that pleasures are oftener bad than good;
 83 Phileb|     existing alike in good and bad pleasures, which makes you designate
 84 Phileb|      tolerate the notion that some pleasures are good and others bad?~
 85 Phileb|          Not in so far as they are pleasures.~SOCRATES: That is a return
 86 Phileb|          there is no difference in pleasures, but that they are all alike;
 87 Phileb|          in the same case with the pleasures of which you spoke.~PROTARCHUS:
 88 Phileb|           admitting that, like the pleasures, they are opposite as well
 89 Phileb|         there are many and diverse pleasures, and many and different
 90 Phileb|        distinguishing the kinds of pleasures, as I am inclined to think,
 91 Phileb|          enjoyment of the greatest pleasures?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly I
 92 Phileb|            life enjoy the greatest pleasures?~PROTARCHUS: I should.~SOCRATES:
 93 Phileb|            was in them no limit to pleasures and self-indulgence, devised
 94 Phileb|           Here then is one kind of pleasures and pains originating severally
 95 Phileb|           this is another class of pleasures and pains, which is of the
 96 Phileb|            suppose them to be, the pleasures being unalloyed with pain
 97 Phileb|       SOCRATES: The other class of pleasures, which as we were saying
 98 Phileb|   suffering and yet remembers past pleasures which, if they would only
 99 Phileb|           we ought to say that the pleasures and pains of which we are
100 Phileb|       Socrates, can there be false pleasures and pains?~SOCRATES: And
101 Phileb|          be true or false, but not pleasures.~SOCRATES: What do you mean?
102 Phileb|    SOCRATES: Do you deny that some pleasures are false, and others true?~
103 Phileb|             Have not purely mental pleasures and pains been described
104 Phileb|            infer that anticipatory pleasures and pains have to do with
105 Phileb|      vision of a heap of gold, and pleasures ensuing, and in the picture
106 Phileb|       SOCRATES: The bad, too, have pleasures painted in their fancy as
107 Phileb|        presume that they are false pleasures.~PROTARCHUS: They are.~SOCRATES:
108 Phileb|          commonly delight in false pleasures, and the good in true pleasures?~
109 Phileb|    pleasures, and the good in true pleasures?~PROTARCHUS: Doubtless.~
110 Phileb|          this view there are false pleasures in the souls of men which
111 Phileb|       other way.~SOCRATES: Nor can pleasures be conceived to be bad except
112 Phileb|       truth; for no one would call pleasures and pains bad because they
113 Phileb|         liable.~SOCRATES: Well, of pleasures which are corrupt and caused
114 Phileb|          that there are many false pleasures existing or coming into
115 Phileb|          to say, if there are such pleasures.~SOCRATES: I think that
116 Phileb|       SOCRATES: That in such cases pleasures and pains come simultaneously;
117 Phileb|           happening in the case of pleasures and pains?~PROTARCHUS: Yes,
118 Phileb|            false, and infected the pleasures and pains with their own
119 Phileb|        SOCRATES: But now it is the pleasures which are said to be true
120 Phileb|       subjected to comparison; the pleasures appear to be greater and
121 Phileb|       placed side by side with the pleasures.~PROTARCHUS: Certainly,
122 Phileb|          suppose you part off from pleasures and pains the element which
123 Phileb|          direction we may not find pleasures and pains existing and appearing
124 Phileb|            going up and down cause pleasures and pains?~PROTARCHUS: True.~
125 Phileb|          the great changes produce pleasures and pains, but that the
126 Phileb|           school of Philebus calls pleasures are all of them only avoidances
127 Phileb|          me what I deem to be true pleasures. Having thus examined the
128 Phileb|          to see the true nature of pleasures as a class, we should not
129 Phileb|           look at the most diluted pleasures, but at the most extreme
130 Phileb|          instances of the greatest pleasures, as we have often said,
131 Phileb|           have often said, are the pleasures of the body?~PROTARCHUS:
132 Phileb|            Well, but are not those pleasures the greatest of which mankind
133 Phileb|           wish to see the greatest pleasures he ought to go and look,
134 Phileb|         who are very ill have more pleasures than those who are well,
135 Phileb|     pleasure; I want to know where pleasures are found to be most intense.
136 Phileb|         more intense and excessive pleasures in wantonness than in temperance?
137 Phileb|            true, then the greatest pleasures and pains will clearly be
138 Phileb|     SOCRATES: Take the case of the pleasures which arise out of certain
139 Phileb|           disorders?~SOCRATES: The pleasures of unseemly disorders, which
140 Phileb|           detest.~PROTARCHUS: What pleasures?~SOCRATES: Such, for example,
141 Phileb| consideration of these and similar pleasures, we shall not be able to
142 Phileb|          to analyze this family of pleasures.~SOCRATES: You mean the
143 Phileb|             SOCRATES: You mean the pleasures which are mingled with pain?~
144 Phileb|        there are other mixtures of pleasures with pains, common both
145 Phileb|         state are called sometimes pleasures and sometimes pains.~PROTARCHUS:
146 Phileb|        these sorts of mixtures the pleasures and pains are sometimes
147 Phileb|          them in every way; of all pleasures he declares them to be the
148 Phileb|     opinions of the majority about pleasures.~SOCRATES: Yes, Protarchus,
149 Phileb|            quite true of the mixed pleasures, which arise out of the
150 Phileb|         other sort of admixture of pleasures and pains.~PROTARCHUS: What
151 Phileb|         full of the most wonderful pleasures? need I remind you of the
152 Phileb|   honeycomb?’~And you remember how pleasures mingle with pains in lamentation
153 Phileb|     detecting other cases of mixed pleasures and pains will be less.~
154 Phileb|          where is the admixture of pleasures and pains.~SOCRATES: Well,
155 Phileb|         all sorts of admixtures of pleasures and pains; and so further
156 Phileb|     SOCRATES: Then after the mixed pleasures the unmixed should have
157 Phileb|            of the opinion that all pleasures are a cessation of pain,
158 Phileb|          witnesses, that there are pleasures which seem only and are
159 Phileb|        mind.~PROTARCHUS: Then what pleasures, Socrates, should we be
160 Phileb|            be true?~SOCRATES: True pleasures are those which are given
161 Phileb|             and they have peculiar pleasures, quite unlike the pleasures
162 Phileb|        pleasures, quite unlike the pleasures of scratching. And there
163 Phileb|        character, and have similar pleasures; now do you understand my
164 Phileb|        beautiful, and have natural pleasures associated with them.~PROTARCHUS:
165 Phileb|    PROTARCHUS: Yes, there are such pleasures.~SOCRATES: The pleasures
166 Phileb|           pleasures.~SOCRATES: The pleasures of smell are of a less ethereal
167 Phileb|         admixture of pain; and all pleasures, however and wherever experienced,
168 Phileb|         Here then are two kinds of pleasures.~PROTARCHUS: I understand.~
169 Phileb|          To these may be added the pleasures of knowledge, if no hunger
170 Phileb|         with pain.~SOCRATES: These pleasures of knowledge, then, are
171 Phileb|         pain; and they are not the pleasures of the many but of a very
172 Phileb|          fairly separated the pure pleasures and those which may be rightly
173 Phileb|      description of them, that the pleasures which are in excess have
174 Phileb|        more to be considered about pleasures.~PROTARCHUS: What is it?~
175 Phileb|        flow in together before the pleasures.~PROTARCHUS: Quite true.~
176 Phileb|           us to consider about the pleasures also, whether we shall in
177 Phileb|            there are any necessary pleasures, as there were arts and
178 Phileb|     PROTARCHUS: Yes; the necessary pleasures should certainly be allowed
179 Phileb|           always; and if we say of pleasures in like manner that all
180 Phileb|          beloved—shall we call you pleasures or by some other name?—would
181 Phileb|         Would you like to have any pleasures in the mixture? And they
182 Phileb|         And they will reply:—‘What pleasures do you mean?’~PROTARCHUS:
183 Phileb|         greatest and most vehement pleasures for your companions in addition
184 Phileb|    unheeded; but the true and pure pleasures, of which you spoke, know
185 Phileb|         our family, and also those pleasures which accompany health and
186 Phileb|          sense in his allowing the pleasures, which are always in the
187 Phileb|         and it is said that in the pleasures of love, which appear to
188 Phileb|           excused by the gods; for pleasures, like children, have not
189 Phileb|          see some one indulging in pleasures, perhaps in the greatest
190 Phileb|         perhaps in the greatest of pleasures, the ridiculous or disgraceful
191 Phileb|            The fifth class are the pleasures which were defined by us
192 Phileb|           painless, being the pure pleasures of the soul herself, as
193 Phileb|           in birds, determine that pleasures make up the good of life,