Dialogue

  1 Phileb|      pleasure. Nor are we able to say how far Plato in the Philebus
  2 Phileb|         of change or division. To say that the verb of existence
  3 Phileb|           Orpheus: Plato means to say that a sixth class, if there
  4 Phileb|          in the Philebus, than to say how much is due to each
  5 Phileb|   universe? All philosophers will say the first, and yet, perhaps,
  6 Phileb|         figure at a distance, and say first of all, ‘This is a
  7 Phileb|          This is a man,’ and then say, ‘No, this is an image made
  8 Phileb|        pleasure still,—that is to say, false pleasure; and only
  9 Phileb|        the right track. They will say, that the nature of anything
 10 Phileb|          to be a generation; they say that there are two natures—
 11 Phileb|       analogy of pleasure, we may say that the philosophical use
 12 Phileb|    Socrates, I have heard Gorgias say that rhetoric is the greatest
 13 Phileb|     necessary.’ And what shall we say about the rest? First, ask
 14 Phileb|          class, I have no more to say. Thus, pleasure and mind
 15 Phileb|       their consequences only; we say further that mankind are
 16 Phileb|           so Christian, as we may say without exaggeration,—and
 17 Phileb|         few exceptions—that is to say, Bentham and his followers—
 18 Phileb|        and evil. We should hardly say that a good man could be
 19 Phileb|        meanest of mankind?’ If we say ‘Not pleasure, not virtue,
 20 Phileb|  non-detection of an immoral act, say of telling a lie, which
 21 Phileb|      their unhappiness. Unless we say not only that all right
 22 Phileb|       contemplate them. Nor do we say that one of these aspects
 23 Phileb|           blasphemy’ of those who say that Chaos and Chance Medley
 24 Phileb|          means.~SOCRATES: And you say that pleasure, and I say
 25 Phileb|          say that pleasure, and I say that wisdom, is such a state?~
 26 Phileb|         SOCRATES: And what do you say, Philebus?~PHILEBUS: I say,
 27 Phileb|        say, Philebus?~PHILEBUS: I say, and shall always say, that
 28 Phileb|           I say, and shall always say, that pleasure is easily
 29 Phileb|       unlike forms. For do we not say that the intemperate has
 30 Phileb|          a new predicate, for you say that all pleasant things
 31 Phileb|      Protarchus, and so we are to say (are we?) that there is
 32 Phileb|          SOCRATES: Why, I mean to say, that in self-defence I
 33 Phileb|        this difficulty, I were to say (as you are saying of pleasure)
 34 Phileb|         one and many, which I may say that everybody has by this
 35 Phileb|     PROTARCHUS: How?~SOCRATES: We say that the one and many become
 36 Phileb|         by numbers ought, as they say, to be called rhythms and
 37 Phileb|       every one and many;—when, I say, you have learned all this,
 38 Phileb|        definite number, and now I say conversely, that he who
 39 Phileb|        the question which, as you say, you have been so long asking?~
 40 Phileb|     should know himself. Why do I say so at this moment? I will
 41 Phileb|    disposal. And now, as children say, what has been fairly given
 42 Phileb|     controversy.~SOCRATES: If you say that, I have nothing to
 43 Phileb|          SOCRATES: What would you say, Protarchus, to both of
 44 Phileb|           and is laid low. I must say that mind would have fallen
 45 Phileb|          good friend?~SOCRATES: I say that a fourth class is still
 46 Phileb|       true.~SOCRATES: Ever, as we say, into the hotter and the
 47 Phileb|       their opposites, that is to say, first of all, equality,
 48 Phileb|    limited or finite; what do you say?~PROTARCHUS: Excellent,
 49 Phileb|        and order, whereby, as you say, Philebus, she torments,
 50 Phileb|       understand you: you mean to say that the infinite is one
 51 Phileb|       dispute?~PROTARCHUS: I dare say.~SOCRATES: We said, if you
 52 Phileb|       SOCRATES: And what shall we say, Philebus, of your life
 53 Phileb|  spokesman, and then we shall not say anything wrong or disrespectful
 54 Phileb|         heavens; and never will I say or think otherwise.~SOCRATES:
 55 Phileb|    SOCRATES: Right; and you would say the same, if I am not mistaken,
 56 Phileb|           of wisdom;—we cannot, I say, imagine that whereas the
 57 Phileb|      nature of Zeus would you not say that there is the soul and
 58 Phileb|         mean?~SOCRATES: I mean to say that their natural seat
 59 Phileb|         am attending.~SOCRATES: I say that when the harmony in
 60 Phileb|     PROTARCHUS: Granted; what you say has a general truth.~SOCRATES:
 61 Phileb|          of good.~PROTARCHUS: You say most truly that this is
 62 Phileb|    dissolution. And mind what you say: I ask whether any animal
 63 Phileb|         not. And I should like to say a few words about it.~PROTARCHUS:
 64 Phileb|      PROTARCHUS: What have you to say?~SOCRATES: Why, you know
 65 Phileb|      Quite true.~SOCRATES: When I say oblivious, do not suppose
 66 Phileb|           the shocks of the body, say unconsciousness.~PROTARCHUS:
 67 Phileb|           There is a reason why I say all this.~PROTARCHUS: What
 68 Phileb|          we mean anything when we say ‘a man thirsts’?~PROTARCHUS:
 69 Phileb|         Yes.~SOCRATES: We mean to say that he ‘is empty’?~PROTARCHUS:
 70 Phileb|        drink.~SOCRATES: Would you say of drink, or of replenishment
 71 Phileb|       drink?~PROTARCHUS: I should say, of replenishment with drink.~
 72 Phileb|      SOCRATES: And what would you say of the intermediate state?~
 73 Phileb|          has them not. May we not say of him, that he is in an
 74 Phileb|    Certainly.~SOCRATES: Would you say that he was wholly pained
 75 Phileb|         PROTARCHUS: Nay, I should say that he has two pains; in
 76 Phileb|     SOCRATES: Whether we ought to say that the pleasures and pains
 77 Phileb|           do.~SOCRATES: Would you say that no one ever seemed
 78 Phileb|           erroneous, might we not say that the opinion, being
 79 Phileb|          misled, and then he will say—‘No, it is a figure made
 80 Phileb|        also?~PROTARCHUS: I should say in relation to all times
 81 Phileb|          much.~SOCRATES: When you say, ‘Very much,’ you mean to
 82 Phileb|          SOCRATES: And may we not say that the good, being friends
 83 Phileb|         mean?~SOCRATES: I mean to say that a man must be admitted
 84 Phileb| PROTARCHUS: Very true; that is to say, if there are such pleasures.~
 85 Phileb|      illusory, and you will never say that the corresponding excess
 86 Phileb|       what the wise tell us; for, say they, all things are ever
 87 Phileb|         SOCRATES: To them we will say: ‘Good; but are we, or living
 88 Phileb| PROTARCHUS: What?~SOCRATES: If we say that the great changes produce
 89 Phileb|      third which is neither; what say you?~PROTARCHUS: I should
 90 Phileb|         you?~PROTARCHUS: I should say as you do that there are
 91 Phileb|           as we know, persons who say and think so.~PROTARCHUS:
 92 Phileb|       from pain?~PROTARCHUS: They say so.~SOCRATES: And they must
 93 Phileb|           think or they would not say that they have pleasure.~
 94 Phileb|            Indeed!~SOCRATES: They say that what the school of
 95 Phileb|           imagine that they would say something of this sort;
 96 Phileb|           most intense. For, as I say, we have to discover what
 97 Phileb|       whether you see, I will not say more, but more intense and
 98 Phileb|          kind, Socrates, I should say.~SOCRATES: I did not introduce
 99 Phileb|         indeed.~SOCRATES: He will say of himself, and others will
100 Phileb|          himself, and others will say of him, that he is dying
101 Phileb|          SOCRATES: Do you mean to say that I must make the division
102 Phileb| Undoubtedly.~SOCRATES: Did we not say that ignorance was always
103 Phileb|          are powerful: May we not say, as I was saying before,
104 Phileb|         any one can deny what you say, Socrates, however eager
105 Phileb|         pure tone, then I mean to say that they are not relatively
106 Phileb|         SOCRATES: But what do you say of another question:—have
107 Phileb|           Yet a third time I must say, Be a little plainer, Socrates.~
108 Phileb|          proceeds, my boy, I dare say that the meaning will become
109 Phileb|         Very right; and would you say that generation is for the
110 Phileb|           were pleasure; and they say that they would not wish
111 Phileb|         in our being compelled to say that he who has a feeling
112 Phileb|         them?~SOCRATES: I mean to say, that if arithmetic, mensuration,
113 Phileb|      Undoubtedly there is, as you say, a great difference among
114 Phileb|       exact calculation, shall we say of either of the pairs that
115 Phileb| PROTARCHUS: Certainly; and let us say in reply, that those arts
116 Phileb|        him.~SOCRATES: You mean to say that you would like to desert,
117 Phileb|          then we shall be able to say whether the science of which
118 Phileb|       than this.~SOCRATES: Do you say so because you observe that
119 Phileb|        true.~SOCRATES: And can we say that any of these things
120 Phileb|           point?~SOCRATES: Let us say that the stable and pure
121 Phileb|    possess or acquire,—I will not say pleasure, however abundant
122 Phileb|          useful always; and if we say of pleasures in like manner
123 Phileb|         PROTARCHUS: What shall we say about them, and what course
124 Phileb|           take up our parable and say: Do you wish to have the
125 Phileb|         Why, Socrates,’ they will say, ‘how can we? seeing that
126 Phileb|          SOCRATES: And may we not say with reason that we are
127 Phileb|        aright.~PROTARCHUS: I dare say.~SOCRATES: And would you
128 Phileb|         also better, I went on to say that if there was anything