Dialogue

  1 Phileb|             of his companions, that Socrates shall answer his own questions,
  2 Phileb|            is worthy of remark. The Socrates of the Philebus is devoid
  3 Phileb|            side by the arguments of Socrates. The instincts of ingenuous
  4 Phileb|       convinced by the arguments of Socrates. They bear a very faded
  5 Phileb|            farewell to Philebus and Socrates,’ we may now consider the
  6 Phileb|           from outward objects. But Socrates seems to intimate that the
  7 Phileb|            in the Gorgias, in which Socrates dilates on the pleasures
  8 Phileb|           in the two dialogues. For Socrates is far from implying that
  9 Phileb|             on between Philebus and Socrates. The argument is now transferred
 10 Phileb|           to the cause of pleasure.~Socrates suggests that they shall
 11 Phileb|             second. They agree, and Socrates opens the game by enlarging
 12 Phileb|             are alike. Yes, retorts Socrates, pleasure is like pleasure,
 13 Phileb|           drift of this remark; and Socrates proceeds to ask how he can
 14 Phileb|           in which pleasure is one, Socrates may retort by saying that
 15 Phileb|           under the impression that Socrates means to discuss the common
 16 Phileb|         body, and the like wonders. Socrates has long ceased to see any
 17 Phileb|             imperfectly answered by Socrates in what follows.~We speak
 18 Phileb|           of grammar.~‘But whither, Socrates, are you going? And what
 19 Phileb|            of pleasure and wisdom:’ Socrates replies, that before we
 20 Phileb|         absolute good. Yes, retorts Socrates, and also to pain the character
 21 Phileb|             denial for the present, Socrates proceeds to show that some
 22 Phileb|        forget and disown her.~‘But, Socrates, I have heard Gorgias say
 23 Phileb|           to Gorgias or Philebus or Socrates, but ask, on behalf of the
 24 Phileb|            of them (why I do them).~Socrates, as we learn from the Memorabilia
 25 Phileb|           and caprice. The Platonic Socrates pursues the same vein of
 26 Phileb|      therefore justified in calling Socrates the first utilitarian; as
 27 Phileb|           which seem so far from us—Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, the Stoics,
 28 Phileb|             we not found that which Socrates and Plato ‘grew old in seeking’?
 29 Phileb|         than men were in the age of Socrates and Plato, who, in their
 30 Phileb|         another, to prove to us, as Socrates would have said, that they
 31 Phileb|  presocratic philosophers, but from Socrates himself.~We have not yet
 32 Phileb|           more than human awe which Socrates expresses about the names
 33 Phileb|    comprehended under the satire of Socrates. Let us observe the religious
 34 Phileb|            PERSONS OF THE DIALOGUE: Socrates, Protarchus, Philebus.~SOCRATES:
 35 Phileb|     Socrates, Protarchus, Philebus.~SOCRATES: Observe, Protarchus, the
 36 Phileb|           PROTARCHUS: By all means.~SOCRATES: Philebus was saying that
 37 Phileb|            Nothing could be fairer, Socrates.~SOCRATES: And do you, Protarchus,
 38 Phileb|          could be fairer, Socrates.~SOCRATES: And do you, Protarchus,
 39 Phileb|        Philebus has left the field.~SOCRATES: Surely the truth about
 40 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Shall we further agree—~
 41 Phileb|         agree—~PROTARCHUS: To what?~SOCRATES: That you and I must now
 42 Phileb|      PROTARCHUS: Yes, by all means.~SOCRATES: And you say that pleasure,
 43 Phileb|            state?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And what if there be a
 44 Phileb|           wisdom.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: Or suppose that the better
 45 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And what do you say, Philebus?~
 46 Phileb|             of your words. And now, Socrates, whether Philebus is pleased
 47 Phileb|          proceed with the argument.~SOCRATES: Then let us begin with
 48 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Very good.~SOCRATES: The awe which I always
 49 Phileb|             alike!~PROTARCHUS: Why, Socrates, they are opposed in so
 50 Phileb|     pleasure,—that is, like itself?~SOCRATES: Yes, my good friend, just
 51 Phileb|            invalidate the argument?~SOCRATES: Why, I shall reply, that
 52 Phileb|       PROTARCHUS: What do you mean, Socrates? Do you think that any one
 53 Phileb|            are good and others bad?~SOCRATES: And yet you will acknowledge
 54 Phileb|          far as they are pleasures.~SOCRATES: That is a return to the
 55 Phileb|       PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?~SOCRATES: Why, I mean to say, that
 56 Phileb|        PROTARCHUS: How do you mean?~SOCRATES: Shall I, Protarchus, have
 57 Phileb|          PROTARCHUS: What question?~SOCRATES: Ask me whether wisdom and
 58 Phileb|       PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?~SOCRATES: The sciences are a numerous
 59 Phileb|             and different sciences.~SOCRATES: And let us have no concealment,
 60 Phileb|     PROTARCHUS: Certainly we ought.~SOCRATES: Then let us have a more
 61 Phileb|         PROTARCHUS: What principle?~SOCRATES: A principle about which
 62 Phileb|          PROTARCHUS: Speak plainer.~SOCRATES: The principle which has
 63 Phileb|            ten thousand other ways?~SOCRATES: Those, Protarchus, are
 64 Phileb|          one.~PROTARCHUS: But what, Socrates, are those other marvels
 65 Phileb|            common and acknowledged?~SOCRATES: When, my boy, the one does
 66 Phileb|         PROTARCHUS: Of what nature?~SOCRATES: In the first place, as
 67 Phileb|          helpful.~PROTARCHUS: Then, Socrates, let us begin by clearing
 68 Phileb|        clearing up these questions.~SOCRATES: That is what I should wish.~
 69 Phileb|         stir him up with questions.~SOCRATES: Good; and where shall we
 70 Phileb|        begin thus?~PROTARCHUS: How?~SOCRATES: We say that the one and
 71 Phileb|            PROTARCHUS: Considering, Socrates, how many we are, and that
 72 Phileb|            in which we are engaged, Socrates, is not unimportant.~SOCRATES:
 73 Phileb|       Socrates, is not unimportant.~SOCRATES: The reverse of unimportant,
 74 Phileb|   PROTARCHUS: Tell us what that is.~SOCRATES: One which may be easily
 75 Phileb|     PROTARCHUS: Tell us what it is.~SOCRATES: A gift of heaven, which,
 76 Phileb|             I partly understand you Socrates, but I should like to have
 77 Phileb|             of what you are saying.~SOCRATES: I may illustrate my meaning
 78 Phileb|             afford an illustration?~SOCRATES: The sound which passes
 79 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And yet not by knowing
 80 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And the knowledge which
 81 Phileb|           kind.~PROTARCHUS: How so?~SOCRATES: Sound is one in music as
 82 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And there is a higher note
 83 Phileb|           so much?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: But you would not be a
 84 Phileb|         music.~PROTARCHUS: Nothing.~SOCRATES: But when you have learned
 85 Phileb|       PROTARCHUS: I think that what Socrates is now saying is excellent,
 86 Phileb|           us and upon the argument?~SOCRATES: Philebus is right in asking
 87 Phileb|            and you must answer him.~SOCRATES: I will; but you must let
 88 Phileb|       PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?~SOCRATES: Some god or divine man,
 89 Phileb|        which I just now complained.~SOCRATES: Are you going to ask, Philebus,
 90 Phileb|            I have been long asking.~SOCRATES: Assuredly you have already
 91 Phileb|           asking?~PHILEBUS: How so?~SOCRATES: Did we not begin by enquiring
 92 Phileb|        wisdom?~PHILEBUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And we maintain that they
 93 Phileb|           them one?~PHILEBUS: True.~SOCRATES: And the precise question
 94 Phileb|        question, Philebus, to which Socrates has ingeniously brought
 95 Phileb|            then, what we are to do:—Socrates, if I understood him rightly,
 96 Phileb|             and the same of wisdom.~SOCRATES: Most true, O son of Callias;
 97 Phileb|             be very near the truth, Socrates. Happy would the wise man
 98 Phileb|       moment? I will tell you. You, Socrates, have granted us this opportunity
 99 Phileb|             against us in this way.~SOCRATES: In what way?~PHILEBUS:
100 Phileb|        clearing up our controversy.~SOCRATES: If you say that, I have
101 Phileb|             PHILEBUS: What is that?~SOCRATES: I remember to have heard
102 Phileb|             right?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And there will cease to
103 Phileb|       proceed.~PROTARCHUS: Capital, Socrates; pray go on as you propose.~
104 Phileb|          pray go on as you propose.~SOCRATES: But, let us first agree
105 Phileb|          PROTARCHUS: What are they?~SOCRATES: Is the good perfect or
106 Phileb|       PROTARCHUS: The most perfect, Socrates, of all things.~SOCRATES:
107 Phileb|            Socrates, of all things.~SOCRATES: And is the good sufficient?~
108 Phileb|        surpassing all other things.~SOCRATES: And no one can deny that
109 Phileb|     PROTARCHUS: That is undeniable.~SOCRATES: Now let us part off the
110 Phileb|        PROTARCHUS: How do you mean?~SOCRATES: Let there be no wisdom
111 Phileb|             PROTARCHUS: Impossible.~SOCRATES: And will you help us to
112 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Then answer.~PROTARCHUS:
113 Phileb|            answer.~PROTARCHUS: Ask.~SOCRATES: Would you choose, Protarchus,
114 Phileb|     PROTARCHUS: Certainly I should.~SOCRATES: Would you consider that
115 Phileb|          PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: Reflect; would you not
116 Phileb|             should have all things.~SOCRATES: Living thus, you would
117 Phileb|    pleasures?~PROTARCHUS: I should.~SOCRATES: But if you had neither
118 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And similarly, if you had
119 Phileb|          otherwise?~PROTARCHUS: No.~SOCRATES: But is such a life eligible?~
120 Phileb|    PROTARCHUS: I cannot answer you, Socrates; the argument has taken
121 Phileb|             me the power of speech.~SOCRATES: We must keep up our spirits;—
122 Phileb|          what is this life of mind?~SOCRATES: I want to know whether
123 Phileb|           PROTARCHUS: Neither life, Socrates, appears eligible to me,
124 Phileb|             chosen by any one else.~SOCRATES: What would you say, Protarchus,
125 Phileb|      pleasure with mind and wisdom?~SOCRATES: Yes, that is the life which
126 Phileb|            and in addition to them.~SOCRATES: But do you see the consequence?~
127 Phileb|     eligible for man or for animal.~SOCRATES: Then now there can be no
128 Phileb|    Certainly that seems to be true.~SOCRATES: And now have I not sufficiently
129 Phileb|            is your ‘mind’ the good, Socrates, for that will be open to
130 Phileb|             to the same objections.~SOCRATES: Perhaps, Philebus, you
131 Phileb|           third.~PROTARCHUS: Truly, Socrates, pleasure appears to me
132 Phileb|           appear as fair as before.~SOCRATES: Well, but had we not better
133 Phileb|          her?~PROTARCHUS: Nonsense, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Why? because
134 Phileb|     PROTARCHUS: Nonsense, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Why? because I said that
135 Phileb|         have finished the argument.~SOCRATES: Heavens! Protarchus, that
136 Phileb|     PROTARCHUS: Of course you must.~SOCRATES: Let us be very careful
137 Phileb|       PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?~SOCRATES: Let us divide all existing
138 Phileb|        would you make the division?~SOCRATES: Let us take some of our
139 Phileb|          PROTARCHUS: Which of them?~SOCRATES: Were we not saying that
140 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Let us assume these two
141 Phileb|           you mean, my good friend?~SOCRATES: I say that a fourth class
142 Phileb|      PROTARCHUS: What will that be?~SOCRATES: Find the cause of the third
143 Phileb|             a cause of composition?~SOCRATES: Not, I think, at present;
144 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Let us begin with the first
145 Phileb|        might be able to follow you.~SOCRATES: Well, the two classes are
146 Phileb|     discussed.~PROTARCHUS: I agree.~SOCRATES: And now consider well;
147 Phileb|      PROTARCHUS: That is most true.~SOCRATES: Ever, as we say, into the
148 Phileb|            a less.~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Then, says the argument,
149 Phileb|          infinite.~PROTARCHUS: Yes, Socrates, that is exceedingly true.~
150 Phileb|           that is exceedingly true.~SOCRATES: Yes, my dear Protarchus,
151 Phileb|    certainly has the look of truth, Socrates; but these subjects, as
152 Phileb|   substantial agreement between us.~SOCRATES: Yes, and I will try to
153 Phileb|         infinite—~PROTARCHUS: What?~SOCRATES: I want to know whether
154 Phileb|          remember?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And all things which do
155 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Excellent, Socrates.~SOCRATES: And now what
156 Phileb|    PROTARCHUS: Excellent, Socrates.~SOCRATES: And now what nature shall
157 Phileb|          will have to tell me that.~SOCRATES: Rather God will tell you,
158 Phileb|            prayer, then, and think.~SOCRATES: I am thinking, Protarchus,
159 Phileb|             of what you are saying?~SOCRATES: I will tell you, and do
160 Phileb|         words.~PROTARCHUS: Proceed.~SOCRATES: Were we not speaking just
161 Phileb|           colder?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: Add to them drier, wetter,
162 Phileb|             the infinite, you mean?~SOCRATES: Yes; and now mingle this
163 Phileb|      PROTARCHUS: What is the other.~SOCRATES: The class of the finite
164 Phileb|            the class of the finite?~SOCRATES: The class of the equal
165 Phileb|        finite, takes certain forms.~SOCRATES: Yes, that is my meaning.~
166 Phileb|       meaning.~PROTARCHUS: Proceed.~SOCRATES: Does not the right participation
167 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And whereas the high and
168 Phileb|         PROTARCHUS: Yes, certainly.~SOCRATES: Or, again, when cold and
169 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And from a like admixture
170 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: I omit ten thousand other
171 Phileb|           ways are much to my mind, Socrates.~SOCRATES: You will observe
172 Phileb|          much to my mind, Socrates.~SOCRATES: You will observe that I
173 Phileb|          third I am not so certain.~SOCRATES: That is because the amazing
174 Phileb|     appeared one.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And the finite or limit
175 Phileb|        nature one?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Yes, indeed; and when I
176 Phileb|           PROTARCHUS: I understand.~SOCRATES: Still there was, as we
177 Phileb|        anything which has no cause?~SOCRATES: And is not the agent the
178 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And the same may be said
179 Phileb|          not?~PROTARCHUS: We shall.~SOCRATES: The agent or cause always
180 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Then the cause and what
181 Phileb|        different?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: Did not the things which
182 Phileb|           classes?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And the creator or cause
183 Phileb|      PROTARCHUS: So let us call it.~SOCRATES: Quite right; but now, having
184 Phileb|           PROTARCHUS: By all means.~SOCRATES: Then the first I will call
185 Phileb|          PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: And now what is the next
186 Phileb|        wisdom?~PROTARCHUS: We were.~SOCRATES: And now, having determined
187 Phileb|             PROTARCHUS: I dare say.~SOCRATES: We said, if you remember,
188 Phileb|           we not?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And we see what is the
189 Phileb|         PROTARCHUS: Beyond a doubt.~SOCRATES: This is evidently comprehended
190 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: And what shall we say,
191 Phileb|              PHILEBUS: Let me hear.~SOCRATES: Have pleasure and pain
192 Phileb|         class which admits of more, Socrates; for pleasure would not
193 Phileb|             in quantity and degree.~SOCRATES: Nor would pain, Philebus,
194 Phileb|              PHILEBUS: You magnify, Socrates, the importance of your
195 Phileb|   importance of your favourite god.~SOCRATES: And you, my friend, are
196 Phileb|           the question.~PROTARCHUS: Socrates is quite right, Philebus,
197 Phileb|             and I must entreat you, Socrates, to be our spokesman, and
198 Phileb|    disrespectful of your favourite.~SOCRATES: I must obey you, Protarchus;
199 Phileb|        PROTARCHUS: You did, indeed, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Yet the answer
200 Phileb|          You did, indeed, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Yet the answer is easy,
201 Phileb|     PHILEBUS: Take your own course, Socrates, and never mind length;
202 Phileb|           we shall not tire of you.~SOCRATES: Very good; let us begin
203 Phileb|          PROTARCHUS: What question?~SOCRATES: Whether all this which
204 Phileb|             assertions, illustrious Socrates, for that which you were
205 Phileb|             say or think otherwise.~SOCRATES: Shall we then agree with
206 Phileb|         would certainly be my wish.~SOCRATES: Then now please to consider
207 Phileb|            PROTARCHUS: Let me hear.~SOCRATES: We see that the elements
208 Phileb|            we are at our wit’s end.~SOCRATES: There is something to be
209 Phileb|             PROTARCHUS: What is it?~SOCRATES: Only a small fraction of
210 Phileb|         universe.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And is not our fire small
211 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: And is the fire in the
212 Phileb|         does not deserve an answer.~SOCRATES: Right; and you would say
213 Phileb|            be deemed in his senses?~SOCRATES: I do not think that he
214 Phileb|           body?~PROTARCHUS: We did.~SOCRATES: And the same may be said
215 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: But is our body nourished
216 Phileb|             PROTARCHUS: That again, Socrates, is a question which does
217 Phileb|            not deserve to be asked.~SOCRATES: Well, tell me, is this
218 Phileb|          PROTARCHUS: What question?~SOCRATES: May our body be said to
219 Phileb|          soul?~PROTARCHUS: Clearly.~SOCRATES: And whence comes that soul,
220 Phileb|        source?~PROTARCHUS: Clearly, Socrates, that is the only source.~
221 Phileb|            that is the only source.~SOCRATES: Why, yes, Protarchus; for
222 Phileb|  supposition is quite unreasonable.~SOCRATES: Then if this be denied,
223 Phileb|            PROTARCHUS: Most justly.~SOCRATES: And wisdom and mind cannot
224 Phileb|          PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: And in the divine nature
225 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: Do not then suppose that
226 Phileb|         universe.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And they furnish an answer
227 Phileb|      observe that you had answered.~SOCRATES: A jest is sometimes refreshing,
228 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: I think, friend, that we
229 Phileb|             mind.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And the class to which
230 Phileb|        discovered?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And let us remember, too,
231 Phileb|          shall be sure to remember.~SOCRATES: We must next examine what
232 Phileb|           the road, let us take it.~SOCRATES: I wonder whether you would
233 Phileb|       PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?~SOCRATES: I mean to say that their
234 Phileb|            you tell me again, sweet Socrates, which of the aforesaid
235 Phileb|           classes is the mixed one?~SOCRATES: I will, my fine fellow,
236 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Very good.~SOCRATES: Let us then understand
237 Phileb|           am not mistaken, harmony.~SOCRATES: Capital; and now will you
238 Phileb|            Proceed; I am attending.~SOCRATES: I say that when the harmony
239 Phileb|              That is very probable.~SOCRATES: And the restoration of
240 Phileb|         believe that you are right, Socrates; but will you try to be
241 Phileb|             to be a little plainer?~SOCRATES: Do not obvious and every-day
242 Phileb|         What phenomena do you mean?~SOCRATES: Hunger, for example, is
243 Phileb|             pain.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: Whereas eating is a replenishment
244 Phileb|          pleasure?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Thirst again is a destruction
245 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And the unnatural freezing
246 Phileb|            say has a general truth.~SOCRATES: Here then is one kind of
247 Phileb|        described?~PROTARCHUS: Good.~SOCRATES: Let us next assume that
248 Phileb|            produced by expectation.~SOCRATES: Right; for in the analysis
249 Phileb|        investigation should pursue.~SOCRATES: Well, then, assuming that
250 Phileb|          PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: Then here we have a third
251 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And do not forget that
252 Phileb|   PROTARCHUS: What have you to say?~SOCRATES: Why, you know that if a
253 Phileb|            rejoicing nor sorrowing?~SOCRATES: Yes; and if I remember
254 Phileb|              certainly, we said so.~SOCRATES: Then he will live without
255 Phileb|          have either joy or sorrow.~SOCRATES: Certainly not—there would
256 Phileb|         first.~PROTARCHUS: Just so.~SOCRATES: The other class of pleasures,
257 Phileb|       PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?~SOCRATES: I must first of all analyze
258 Phileb|   PROTARCHUS: How will you proceed?~SOCRATES: Let us imagine affections
259 Phileb|          them.~PROTARCHUS: Granted.~SOCRATES: And the soul may be truly
260 Phileb|             PROTARCHUS: Quite true.~SOCRATES: When I say oblivious, do
261 Phileb|           you see?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Then just be so good as
262 Phileb|            How shall I change them?~SOCRATES: Instead of the oblivion
263 Phileb| unconsciousness.~PROTARCHUS: I see.~SOCRATES: And the union or communion
264 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: Then now we know the meaning
265 Phileb|          the word?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And memory may, I think,
266 Phileb|   consciousness?~PROTARCHUS: Right.~SOCRATES: But do we not distinguish
267 Phileb|             PROTARCHUS: I think so.~SOCRATES: And do we not mean by recollection
268 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And when she recovers of
269 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: There is a reason why I
270 Phileb|             PROTARCHUS: What is it?~SOCRATES: I want to attain the plainest
271 Phileb|         both.~PROTARCHUS: Then now, Socrates, let us proceed to the next
272 Phileb|          proceed to the next point.~SOCRATES: There are certainly many
273 Phileb|          for we shall lose nothing.~SOCRATES: Nay, Protarchus, we shall
274 Phileb|         retort; but let us proceed.~SOCRATES: Did we not place hunger,
275 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And yet they are very different;
276 Phileb|             PROTARCHUS: By heavens, Socrates, that is a question which
277 Phileb|            but it must be answered.~SOCRATES: Then let us go back to
278 Phileb|   PROTARCHUS: Where shall we begin?~SOCRATES: Do we mean anything when
279 Phileb|          thirsts’?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: We mean to say that he ‘
280 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Of course.~SOCRATES: And is not thirst desire?~
281 Phileb|          PROTARCHUS: Yes, of drink.~SOCRATES: Would you say of drink,
282 Phileb|           replenishment with drink.~SOCRATES: Then he who is empty desires,
283 Phileb|             PROTARCHUS: Clearly so.~SOCRATES: But how can a man who is
284 Phileb|             PROTARCHUS: Impossible.~SOCRATES: And yet he who desires,
285 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Of course.~SOCRATES: He does not desire that
286 Phileb|    replenishment?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: Then there must be something
287 Phileb|             PROTARCHUS: There must.~SOCRATES: And that cannot be the
288 Phileb|           emptied?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: The only remaining alternative
289 Phileb|           cannot imagine any other.~SOCRATES: But do you see the consequence?~
290 Phileb|             PROTARCHUS: What is it?~SOCRATES: That there is no such thing
291 Phileb|           body.~PROTARCHUS: Why so?~SOCRATES: Why, because the argument
292 Phileb|             state.~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And the impulse which leads
293 Phileb|            state.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And the argument, having
294 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: The argument will not allow
295 Phileb|            PROTARCHUS: Quite right.~SOCRATES: Let me make a further observation;
296 Phileb|             life, are you speaking?~SOCRATES: I am speaking of being
297 Phileb|            to it.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And what would you say
298 Phileb|             mean by ‘intermediate’?~SOCRATES: I mean when a person is
299 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Would you say that he was
300 Phileb|            longing and expectation.~SOCRATES: What do you mean, Protarchus,
301 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And has he not the pleasure
302 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Then man and the other
303 Phileb|           PROTARCHUS: I suppose so.~SOCRATES: But when a man is empty
304 Phileb|             PROTARCHUS: Quite true, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Shall the enquiry
305 Phileb|   PROTARCHUS: Quite true, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Shall the enquiry into
306 Phileb|          PROTARCHUS: What question?~SOCRATES: Whether we ought to say
307 Phileb|         false?~PROTARCHUS: But how, Socrates, can there be false pleasures
308 Phileb|          false pleasures and pains?~SOCRATES: And how, Protarchus, can
309 Phileb|           false, but not pleasures.~SOCRATES: What do you mean? I am
310 Phileb|          PROTARCHUS: There I agree.~SOCRATES: And yet, my boy, for you
311 Phileb|       argument.~PROTARCHUS: Surely.~SOCRATES: No tedious and irrelevant
312 Phileb|       pertinent.~PROTARCHUS: Right.~SOCRATES: I am always wondering at
313 Phileb|         raised.~PROTARCHUS: How so?~SOCRATES: Do you deny that some pleasures
314 Phileb|        PROTARCHUS: To be sure I do.~SOCRATES: Would you say that no one
315 Phileb|             So we have always held, Socrates.~SOCRATES: But were you
316 Phileb|         have always held, Socrates.~SOCRATES: But were you right? Shall
317 Phileb|             I think that we should.~SOCRATES: Let us then put into more
318 Phileb|           opinion?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And such a thing as pleasure?~
319 Phileb|          pleasure?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And an opinion must be
320 Phileb|        something?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And a man must be pleased
321 Phileb|          PROTARCHUS: Quite correct.~SOCRATES: And whether the opinion
322 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And he who is pleased,
323 Phileb|            that is also quite true.~SOCRATES: Then, how can opinion be
324 Phileb|          Yes; that is the question.~SOCRATES: You mean that opinion admits
325 Phileb|          examined?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And further, even if we
326 Phileb|       quality?~PROTARCHUS: Clearly.~SOCRATES: But there is no difficulty
327 Phileb|             PROTARCHUS: Quite true.~SOCRATES: And if badness attaches
328 Phileb|             PROTARCHUS: Quite true, Socrates.~SOCRATES: And if rightness
329 Phileb|   PROTARCHUS: Quite true, Socrates.~SOCRATES: And if rightness attaches
330 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And if the thing opined
331 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And if we see a pleasure
332 Phileb|             mistaken; how could we?~SOCRATES: And surely pleasure often
333 Phileb|             does; and in that case, Socrates, as we were saying, the
334 Phileb|          the actual pleasure false.~SOCRATES: How eagerly, Protarchus,
335 Phileb|          pleasure!~PROTARCHUS: Nay, Socrates, I only repeat what I hear.~
336 Phileb|            only repeat what I hear.~SOCRATES: And is there no difference,
337 Phileb|           difference, between them.~SOCRATES: Then, now let us proceed
338 Phileb|            Lead, and I will follow.~SOCRATES: Well, then, my view is—~
339 Phileb|             PROTARCHUS: What is it?~SOCRATES: We agree—do we not?—that
340 Phileb|           opinion?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And pleasure and pain,
341 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And do not opinion and
342 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Might we imagine the process
343 Phileb|         PROTARCHUS: Of what nature?~SOCRATES: An object may be often
344 Phileb|            PROTARCHUS: Very likely.~SOCRATES: Soon he begins to interrogate
345 Phileb|         PROTARCHUS: In what manner?~SOCRATES: He asks himself—‘What is
346 Phileb|       appearance.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: To which he may guess the
347 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Very good.~SOCRATES: Or again, he may be misled,
348 Phileb|        shepherds.’~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And if he has a companion,
349 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: But if he be walking alone
350 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: Well, now, I wonder whether
351 Phileb|           What is your explanation?~SOCRATES: I think that the soul at
352 Phileb|           book.~PROTARCHUS: How so?~SOCRATES: Memory and perception meet,
353 Phileb|            agree to your statement.~SOCRATES: I must bespeak your favour
354 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Who is he?~SOCRATES: The painter, who, after
355 Phileb|            and how does he do this?~SOCRATES: When a man, besides receiving
356 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And the images answering
357 Phileb|          not?~PROTARCHUS: They are.~SOCRATES: If we are right so far,
358 Phileb|             PROTARCHUS: What is it?~SOCRATES: Whether we experience the
359 Phileb|        relation to all times alike.~SOCRATES: Have not purely mental
360 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: And do all those writings
361 Phileb|           To the future, very much.~SOCRATES: When you say, ‘Very much,’
362 Phileb|     existence?~PROTARCHUS: Exactly.~SOCRATES: Answer me another question.~
363 Phileb|          PROTARCHUS: What question?~SOCRATES: A just and pious and good
364 Phileb|        PROTARCHUS: Certainly he is.~SOCRATES: And the unjust and utterly
365 Phileb|          reverse?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And all men, as we were
366 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And these hopes, as they
367 Phileb|             of us?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And the fancies of hope
368 Phileb|          fortune.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And may we not say that
369 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: The bad, too, have pleasures
370 Phileb|    pleasures.~PROTARCHUS: They are.~SOCRATES: The bad then commonly delight
371 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Doubtless.~SOCRATES: Then upon this view there
372 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: There are.~SOCRATES: And did we not allow that
373 Phileb|             PROTARCHUS: Quite true.~SOCRATES: And this was the source
374 Phileb|             right?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And must we not attribute
375 Phileb|        PROTARCHUS: How do you mean?~SOCRATES: I mean to say that a man
376 Phileb|             exist.~PROTARCHUS: Yes, Socrates, that again is undeniable.~
377 Phileb|           that again is undeniable.~SOCRATES: And may not the same be
378 Phileb|        false?~PROTARCHUS: Quite so.~SOCRATES: And can opinions be good
379 Phileb|        PROTARCHUS: In no other way.~SOCRATES: Nor can pleasures be conceived
380 Phileb|             false.~PROTARCHUS: Nay, Socrates, that is the very opposite
381 Phileb|           to which they are liable.~SOCRATES: Well, of pleasures which
382 Phileb|           there are such pleasures.~SOCRATES: I think that there are,
383 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Very good.~SOCRATES: Then now, like wrestlers,
384 Phileb|      argument.~PROTARCHUS: Proceed.~SOCRATES: We were maintaining a little
385 Phileb|          remember that you said so.~SOCRATES: And the soul was supposed
386 Phileb|      experienced.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: Then now you may infer
387 Phileb|     PROTARCHUS: What am I to infer?~SOCRATES: That in such cases pleasures
388 Phileb|         shown.~PROTARCHUS: Clearly.~SOCRATES: And there is another point
389 Phileb|             PROTARCHUS: What is it?~SOCRATES: That pleasure and pain
390 Phileb|              Certainly, we said so.~SOCRATES: But how can we rightly
391 Phileb|             PROTARCHUS: How can we?~SOCRATES: Is it our intention to
392 Phileb|          judge of them accordingly.~SOCRATES: Well, take the case of
393 Phileb|             pains?~PROTARCHUS: Yes, Socrates, and in a degree far greater.~
394 Phileb|            in a degree far greater.~SOCRATES: Then what we are now saying
395 Phileb|          PROTARCHUS: What was that?~SOCRATES: Then the opinions were
396 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: But now it is the pleasures
397 Phileb|           reason which you mention.~SOCRATES: And suppose you part off
398 Phileb|          PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: Next let us see whether
399 Phileb|             how shall we find them?~SOCRATES: If I am not mistaken, I
400 Phileb|           that has been often said.~SOCRATES: And we have also agreed
401 Phileb|        pleasure?~PROTARCHUS: Right.~SOCRATES: But now let us suppose
402 Phileb|       PROTARCHUS: When can that be, Socrates?~SOCRATES: Your question,
403 Phileb|         When can that be, Socrates?~SOCRATES: Your question, Protarchus,
404 Phileb|      argument.~PROTARCHUS: Why not, Socrates?~SOCRATES: Because it does
405 Phileb|      PROTARCHUS: Why not, Socrates?~SOCRATES: Because it does not prevent
406 Phileb|      PROTARCHUS: And what was that?~SOCRATES: Why, Protarchus, admitting
407 Phileb|             either for good or bad?~SOCRATES: Yes.~PROTARCHUS: Why then,
408 Phileb|          Yes.~PROTARCHUS: Why then, Socrates, I should suppose that there
409 Phileb|          neither pleasure nor pain.~SOCRATES: Very good; but still, if
410 Phileb|           are of no mean authority.~SOCRATES: Of course, for they are
411 Phileb|            flight.~PROTARCHUS: How?~SOCRATES: To them we will say: ‘Good;
412 Phileb|        alternative is the true one.~SOCRATES: Then we were not right
413 Phileb|            pains?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: A better and more unexceptionable
414 Phileb|          will be—~PROTARCHUS: What?~SOCRATES: If we say that the great
415 Phileb|          neither.~PROTARCHUS: That, Socrates, is the more correct mode
416 Phileb|           correct mode of speaking.~SOCRATES: But if this be true, the
417 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: What life?~SOCRATES: The life which we affirmed
418 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: We may assume then that
419 Phileb|            there are three of them.~SOCRATES: But if so, the negation
420 Phileb|          PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: Then when you hear a person
421 Phileb|          mean the negative of pain.~SOCRATES: Let us take any three things;
422 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Very good.~SOCRATES: Now, can that which is
423 Phileb|             PROTARCHUS: Impossible.~SOCRATES: No more can that neutral
424 Phileb|          PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: And yet, my friend, there
425 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And do they think that
426 Phileb|            PROTARCHUS: They say so.~SOCRATES: And they must think or
427 Phileb|          PROTARCHUS: I suppose not.~SOCRATES: And yet if pleasure and
428 Phileb|    undoubtedly of distinct natures.~SOCRATES: Then shall we take the
429 Phileb|      pleasant?~PROTARCHUS: But why, Socrates, do we ask the question
430 Phileb|            I do not see the reason.~SOCRATES: You, Protarchus, have clearly
431 Phileb|    PROTARCHUS: And who may they be?~SOCRATES: Certain persons who are
432 Phileb|       pleasure.~PROTARCHUS: Indeed!~SOCRATES: They say that what the
433 Phileb|          PROTARCHUS: And would you, Socrates, have us agree with them?~
434 Phileb|            have us agree with them?~SOCRATES: Why, no, I would rather
435 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Well said.~SOCRATES: Then let us enter into
436 Phileb|             the greatest instances.~SOCRATES: Then if we want to see
437 Phileb|          that every one will agree.~SOCRATES: And the obvious instances
438 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And are they felt by us
439 Phileb|       PROTARCHUS: How will that be?~SOCRATES: Why, because we might be
440 Phileb|         that is the natural answer.~SOCRATES: Well, but are not those
441 Phileb|          desires?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And do not people who are
442 Phileb|      obvious as soon as it is said.~SOCRATES: Well, then, shall we not
443 Phileb|   PROTARCHUS: I think I follow you.~SOCRATES: You will soon have a better
444 Phileb|            them shout with delight.~SOCRATES: Very good, and if this
445 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And ought we not to select
446 Phileb|    PROTARCHUS: To be sure we ought.~SOCRATES: Take the case of the pleasures
447 Phileb|         PROTARCHUS: What disorders?~SOCRATES: The pleasures of unseemly
448 Phileb|         PROTARCHUS: What pleasures?~SOCRATES: Such, for example, as the
449 Phileb|    villainous mixture of some kind, Socrates, I should say.~SOCRATES:
450 Phileb|             Socrates, I should say.~SOCRATES: I did not introduce the
451 Phileb|           this family of pleasures.~SOCRATES: You mean the pleasures
452 Phileb|          pain?~PROTARCHUS: Exactly.~SOCRATES: There are some mixtures
453 Phileb|            PROTARCHUS: How is that?~SOCRATES: Whenever, in the restoration
454 Phileb|             is very true to nature.~SOCRATES: And in these sorts of mixtures
455 Phileb|     predominates?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: Of cases in which the pain
456 Phileb|         pain.~PROTARCHUS: Quite so.~SOCRATES: Sometimes the element of
457 Phileb|            PROTARCHUS: Yes, indeed.~SOCRATES: He will say of himself,
458 Phileb|          mankind.~PROTARCHUS: That, Socrates, is a very true description
459 Phileb|           majority about pleasures.~SOCRATES: Yes, Protarchus, quite
460 Phileb|      believe that to be quite true.~SOCRATES: There still remains one
461 Phileb|           PROTARCHUS: What is that?~SOCRATES: The union which, as we
462 Phileb|       PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?~SOCRATES: Why, do we not speak of
463 Phileb|         soul only?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And shall we not find them
464 Phileb|             connexion between them.~SOCRATES: And you remember also how
465 Phileb|         PROTARCHUS: Certainly I do.~SOCRATES: And are you aware that
466 Phileb|           not quite understand you.~SOCRATES: I admit, Protarchus, that
467 Phileb|      PROTARCHUS: There is, I think.~SOCRATES: And the greater the obscurity
468 Phileb|          less.~PROTARCHUS: Proceed.~SOCRATES: I have just mentioned envy;
469 Phileb|          the soul?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And yet the envious man
470 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And ignorance, and what
471 Phileb|             PROTARCHUS: To be sure.~SOCRATES: From these considerations
472 Phileb|    ridiculous.~PROTARCHUS: Explain.~SOCRATES: The ridiculous is in short
473 Phileb|       Delphi.~PROTARCHUS: You mean, Socrates, ‘Know thyself.’~SOCRATES:
474 Phileb|           Socrates, ‘Know thyself.’~SOCRATES: I do; and the opposite
475 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And now, O Protarchus,
476 Phileb|            am afraid that I cannot.~SOCRATES: Do you mean to say that
477 Phileb|          more, I beg that you will.~SOCRATES: Are there not three ways
478 Phileb|          PROTARCHUS: What are they?~SOCRATES: In the first place, about
479 Phileb|             is a very common error.~SOCRATES: And still more often he
480 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Of course.~SOCRATES: And yet surely by far the
481 Phileb|             the commonest delusion.~SOCRATES: And of all the virtues,
482 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And may not all this be
483 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Very evil.~SOCRATES: But we must pursue the
484 Phileb|         division which you suggest?~SOCRATES: All who are silly enough
485 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Let this, then, be the
486 Phileb|             of pleasures and pains.~SOCRATES: Well, then, let us examine
487 Phileb|          envy.~PROTARCHUS: Proceed.~SOCRATES: Is not envy an unrighteous
488 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: There is nothing envious
489 Phileb|          PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: But to feel joy instead
490 Phileb|            PROTARCHUS: Undoubtedly.~SOCRATES: Did we not say that ignorance
491 Phileb|             evil?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And the three kinds of
492 Phileb|    PROTARCHUS: They are ridiculous.~SOCRATES: And do we not acknowledge
493 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And do we feel pain or
494 Phileb|           Clearly we feel pleasure.~SOCRATES: And was not envy the source
495 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Then the argument shows
496 Phileb|          instant.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And the argument implies
497 Phileb|          one can deny what you say, Socrates, however eager he may be
498 Phileb|        assert the opposite opinion.~SOCRATES: I mentioned anger, desire,
499 Phileb|             I not?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: We may observe that our
500 Phileb|           anger.~PROTARCHUS: I see.~SOCRATES: Then many other cases still