Dialogue

501 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And why do you suppose
502 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Very good, Socrates; in what remains take your
503 Phileb|       remains take your own course.~SOCRATES: Then after the mixed pleasures
504 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Excellent.~SOCRATES: These, in turn, then, I
505 Phileb|    PROTARCHUS: Then what pleasures, Socrates, should we be right in conceiving
506 Phileb|           in conceiving to be true?~SOCRATES: True pleasures are those
507 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Once more, Socrates, I must ask what you mean.~
508 Phileb|             must ask what you mean.~SOCRATES: My meaning is certainly
509 Phileb|            am trying to understand, Socrates, and I hope that you will
510 Phileb|          make your meaning clearer.~SOCRATES: When sounds are smooth
511 Phileb|           there are such pleasures.~SOCRATES: The pleasures of smell
512 Phileb|           PROTARCHUS: I understand.~SOCRATES: To these may be added the
513 Phileb|   PROTARCHUS: And this is the case.~SOCRATES: Well, but if a man who
514 Phileb|          the loss of his knowledge.~SOCRATES: Yes, my friend, but at
515 Phileb|             not attended with pain.~SOCRATES: These pleasures of knowledge,
516 Phileb|             PROTARCHUS: Quite true.~SOCRATES: And now, having fairly
517 Phileb|            PROTARCHUS: Quite right, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Still there is
518 Phileb|              Quite right, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Still there is something
519 Phileb|             PROTARCHUS: What is it?~SOCRATES: When you speak of purity
520 Phileb|         PROTARCHUS: Why do you ask, Socrates?~SOCRATES: Because, Protarchus,
521 Phileb|           Why do you ask, Socrates?~SOCRATES: Because, Protarchus, I
522 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: Let us investigate all
523 Phileb|           instance shall we select?~SOCRATES: Suppose that we first of
524 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Very good.~SOCRATES: How can there be purity
525 Phileb|        which is most unadulterated.~SOCRATES: True, Protarchus; and so
526 Phileb|       beautiful?~PROTARCHUS: Right.~SOCRATES: And we shall be quite right
527 Phileb|        PROTARCHUS: Perfectly right.~SOCRATES: There is no need of adducing
528 Phileb|          given is quite sufficient.~SOCRATES: But what do you say of
529 Phileb|      PROTARCHUS: What do they mean?~SOCRATES: I will explain to you,
530 Phileb|             Ask, and I will answer.~SOCRATES: I assume that there are
531 Phileb|         manner of natures are they?~SOCRATES: The one majestic ever,
532 Phileb|      PROTARCHUS: You speak riddles.~SOCRATES: You have seen loves good
533 Phileb|      PROTARCHUS: I should think so.~SOCRATES: Search the universe for
534 Phileb|           say, Be a little plainer, Socrates.~SOCRATES: There is no difficulty,
535 Phileb|           little plainer, Socrates.~SOCRATES: There is no difficulty,
536 Phileb|         make me slow to understand.~SOCRATES: As the argument proceeds,
537 Phileb|            PROTARCHUS: Very likely.~SOCRATES: Here are two new principles.~
538 Phileb|          PROTARCHUS: What are they?~SOCRATES: One is the generation of
539 Phileb|             generation and essence.~SOCRATES: Very right; and would you
540 Phileb|             the sake of generation?~SOCRATES: Yes.~PROTARCHUS: By the
541 Phileb|         would repeat your question.~SOCRATES: I mean, O my Protarchus,
542 Phileb|            you not answer yourself, Socrates?~SOCRATES: I have no objection,
543 Phileb|          answer yourself, Socrates?~SOCRATES: I have no objection, but
544 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: My answer is, that all
545 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Assuredly.~SOCRATES: Then pleasure, being a
546 Phileb|          essence?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And that for the sake of
547 Phileb|         PROTARCHUS: Most certainly.~SOCRATES: Then pleasure, being a
548 Phileb|            PROTARCHUS: Quite right.~SOCRATES: Then, as I said at first,
549 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Assuredly.~SOCRATES: And he would surely laugh
550 Phileb|              and what do they mean?~SOCRATES: I am speaking of those
551 Phileb|          what they appear to think.~SOCRATES: And is not destruction
552 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Then he who chooses thus,
553 Phileb|      involved in great absurdities, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Great, indeed;
554 Phileb|        great absurdities, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Great, indeed; and there
555 Phileb|             PROTARCHUS: What is it?~SOCRATES: Is there not an absurdity
556 Phileb|        virtue?~PROTARCHUS: Nothing, Socrates, can be more irrational
557 Phileb|           irrational than all this.~SOCRATES: And now, having subjected
558 Phileb|        judgment.~PROTARCHUS: Right.~SOCRATES: Knowledge has two parts,—
559 Phileb|      educational?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And in the productive or
560 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Let us separate the superior
561 Phileb|           how do you separate them?~SOCRATES: I mean to say, that if
562 Phileb|    PROTARCHUS: Not much, certainly.~SOCRATES: The rest will be only conjecture,
563 Phileb|            Nothing more, assuredly.~SOCRATES: Music, for instance, is
564 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: And the same will be found
565 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: The art of the builder,
566 Phileb|            PROTARCHUS: How is that?~SOCRATES: In ship-building and house-building,
567 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Very true, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Then now let
568 Phileb|    PROTARCHUS: Very true, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Then now let us divide
569 Phileb|          Let us make that division.~SOCRATES: Of the latter class, the
570 Phileb|             weighing and measuring.~SOCRATES: Certainly, Protarchus;
571 Phileb|             What are the two kinds?~SOCRATES: In the first place, arithmetic
572 Phileb|         would you distinguish them?~SOCRATES: There is a wide difference
573 Phileb|            two sorts of arithmetic.~SOCRATES: And when we compare the
574 Phileb|            they were severally two.~SOCRATES: Right; but do you understand
575 Phileb|             like to be told by you.~SOCRATES: The argument has all along
576 Phileb|             that was the intention.~SOCRATES: And has not the argument
577 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And just now did not the
578 Phileb|             the argument is asking.~SOCRATES: And how, Protarchus, shall
579 Phileb|          the enquiry?~PROTARCHUS: O Socrates, we have reached a point
580 Phileb|           of knowledge is enormous.~SOCRATES: Then the answer will be
581 Phileb|     superior in accuracy and truth.~SOCRATES: Then this is your judgment;
582 Phileb|            PROTARCHUS: What answer?~SOCRATES: That there are two arts
583 Phileb|          masters of whom you speak, Socrates, and hope for good luck.~
584 Phileb|             and hope for good luck.~SOCRATES: We have explained what
585 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Very good.~SOCRATES: And yet, Protarchus, dialectic
586 Phileb|            pray, what is dialectic?~SOCRATES: Clearly the science which
587 Phileb|             heard Gorgias maintain, Socrates, that the art of persuasion
588 Phileb|        either with you or with him.~SOCRATES: You mean to say that you
589 Phileb|          PROTARCHUS: As you please.~SOCRATES: May I not have led you
590 Phileb|   misapprehension?~PROTARCHUS: How?~SOCRATES: Dear Protarchus, I never
591 Phileb|             of the truth than this.~SOCRATES: Do you say so because you
592 Phileb|            spent?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: He is labouring, not after
593 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And can we say that any
594 Phileb|             PROTARCHUS: Impossible.~SOCRATES: How can anything fixed
595 Phileb|             PROTARCHUS: How indeed?~SOCRATES: Then mind and science when
596 Phileb|   PROTARCHUS: I should imagine not.~SOCRATES: And now let us bid farewell,
597 Phileb|             PROTARCHUS: What point?~SOCRATES: Let us say that the stable
598 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And of the names expressing
599 Phileb|        PROTARCHUS: That is natural.~SOCRATES: And are not mind and wisdom
600 Phileb|     honoured most?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And these names may be
601 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And these were the names
602 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Very true, Socrates.~SOCRATES: In the next place,
603 Phileb|    PROTARCHUS: Very true, Socrates.~SOCRATES: In the next place, as to
604 Phileb|             hands.~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And now we must begin to
605 Phileb|           PROTARCHUS: By all means.~SOCRATES: But had we not better have
606 Phileb|      memories?~PROTARCHUS: Of what?~SOCRATES: Of that which I have already
607 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Well then, by Zeus, let
608 Phileb|            PROTARCHUS: Let me hear.~SOCRATES: Philebus says that pleasure
609 Phileb|           one thing and one nature; Socrates, on the other hand, begins
610 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And is there not and was
611 Phileb|            PROTARCHUS: What was it?~SOCRATES: That the good differs from
612 Phileb|        PROTARCHUS: In what respect?~SOCRATES: In that the being who possesses
613 Phileb|          else.~PROTARCHUS: Exactly.~SOCRATES: And did we not endeavour
614 Phileb|       pleasure?~PROTARCHUS: We did.~SOCRATES: And did we think that either
615 Phileb|          PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: And if we erred in any
616 Phileb|          PROTARCHUS: Certainly not, Socrates; but why repeat such questions
617 Phileb|            such questions any more?~SOCRATES: Then the perfect and universally
618 Phileb|             PROTARCHUS: Impossible.~SOCRATES: Then now we must ascertain
619 Phileb|        assigned.~PROTARCHUS: Right.~SOCRATES: Have we not found a road
620 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: What road?~SOCRATES: Supposing that a man had
621 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And now reason intimates
622 Phileb|            mixed.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: There is greater hope of
623 Phileb|            PROTARCHUS: Far greater.~SOCRATES: Then now let us mingle,
624 Phileb|           PROTARCHUS: By all means.~SOCRATES: Are not we the cup-bearers?
625 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Tell me first;—should we
626 Phileb|       PROTARCHUS: Perhaps we might.~SOCRATES: But I should be afraid
627 Phileb|             PROTARCHUS: What is it?~SOCRATES: One pleasure was supposed
628 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: There was also supposed
629 Phileb|    PROTARCHUS: Very good and right.~SOCRATES: If, then, we were to begin
630 Phileb|             to do what you suggest.~SOCRATES: Let us suppose a man who
631 Phileb|            will suppose such a man.~SOCRATES: Will he have enough of
632 Phileb|           which is only superhuman, Socrates, is ridiculous in man.~SOCRATES:
633 Phileb|     Socrates, is ridiculous in man.~SOCRATES: What do you mean? Do you
634 Phileb|          ever to find his way home.~SOCRATES: And am I to include music,
635 Phileb|             is to be a life at all.~SOCRATES: Well, then, suppose that
636 Phileb|          PROTARCHUS: I do not know, Socrates, that any great harm would
637 Phileb|            you have the first sort.~SOCRATES: Well, then, shall I let
638 Phileb|           PROTARCHUS: By all means.~SOCRATES: There—I have let them in,
639 Phileb|             PROTARCHUS: Quite true.~SOCRATES: And now the time has come
640 Phileb|           flow the true ones first.~SOCRATES: Let them flow, then; and
641 Phileb|     certainly be allowed to mingle.~SOCRATES: The knowledge of the arts
642 Phileb|          what course shall we take?~SOCRATES: Do not ask me, Protarchus;
643 Phileb|        themselves.~PROTARCHUS: How?~SOCRATES: Tell us, O beloved—shall
644 Phileb|           follows:~PROTARCHUS: How?~SOCRATES: They would answer, as we
645 Phileb|           that ye have spoken well.~SOCRATES: Very true. And now let
646 Phileb|          PROTARCHUS: Likely enough.~SOCRATES: And we shall take up our
647 Phileb|             to the true ones? ‘Why, Socrates,’ they will say, ‘how can
648 Phileb|         PROTARCHUS: Most certainly.~SOCRATES: And still there must be
649 Phileb|           PROTARCHUS: What is that?~SOCRATES: Unless truth enter into
650 Phileb|             PROTARCHUS: Impossible.~SOCRATES: Quite impossible; and now
651 Phileb|       PROTARCHUS: I agree with you, Socrates.~SOCRATES: And may we not
652 Phileb|           agree with you, Socrates.~SOCRATES: And may we not say with
653 Phileb|    PROTARCHUS: I think that we are.~SOCRATES: What, then, is there in
654 Phileb|            be better able to judge.~SOCRATES: And there is no difficulty
655 Phileb|       PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?~SOCRATES: Every man knows it.~PROTARCHUS:
656 Phileb|         knows it.~PROTARCHUS: What?~SOCRATES: He knows that any want
657 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: And now the power of the
658 Phileb|             over.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: Also we said that truth
659 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Then, if we are not able
660 Phileb|            PROTARCHUS: Quite right.~SOCRATES: And now, Protarchus, any
661 Phileb|       better be pursued to the end.~SOCRATES: We must take each of them
662 Phileb|         beauty, truth, and measure?~SOCRATES: Yes, Protarchus, take truth
663 Phileb|         like truth, and the truest.~SOCRATES: Shall we next consider
664 Phileb|            than mind and knowledge.~SOCRATES: Very good; but there still
665 Phileb|            two?~PROTARCHUS: No one, Socrates, either awake or dreaming,
666 Phileb|           past, present, or future.~SOCRATES: Right.~PROTARCHUS: But
667 Phileb|             to meet the eye of day.~SOCRATES: Then, Protarchus, you will
668 Phileb|             what has been now said.~SOCRATES: In the second class is
669 Phileb|           family.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And if you reckon in the
670 Phileb|             PROTARCHUS: I dare say.~SOCRATES: And would you not put in
671 Phileb|             is.~PROTARCHUS: Surely.~SOCRATES: The fifth class are the
672 Phileb|        senses.~PROTARCHUS: Perhaps.~SOCRATES: And now, as Orpheus says,~‘
673 Phileb|        discourse.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: Then let us sum up and
674 Phileb|      saviour Zeus.~PROTARCHUS: How?~SOCRATES: Philebus affirmed that
675 Phileb|    understand; this third libation, Socrates, of which you spoke, meant
676 Phileb|             meant a recapitulation.~SOCRATES: Yes, but listen to the
677 Phileb|         pleasure.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: But, suspecting that there
678 Phileb|         first.~PROTARCHUS: You did.~SOCRATES: Nothing could be more satisfactorily
679 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: The claims both of pleasure
680 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: But, though they must both
681 Phileb|              PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And, according to the judgment
682 Phileb|            fifth.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: But not first; no, not
683 Phileb|    philosophy.~PROTARCHUS: And now, Socrates, we tell you that the truth
684 Phileb|          the judgment of all of us.~SOCRATES: And will you let me go?~