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| Alphabetical [« »] prosestin 1 protag 1 protagoras 3 protarchus 632 prove 8 proved 2 proven 1 | Frequency [« »] 684 socrates 664 a 641 which 632 protarchus 582 be 537 are 537 we | Plato Philebus IntraText - Concordances protarchus |
Dialogue
1 Phileb| inspiration. The interlocutor Protarchus, the son of Callias, who 2 Phileb| we naturally reply with Protarchus, that the pleasure is what 3 Phileb| argument is now transferred to Protarchus, the son of Callias, a noble 4 Phileb| and perhaps the lover, of Protarchus, takes no further part in 5 Phileb| well as of the intemperate. Protarchus replies that although pleasures 6 Phileb| among figures and colours. Protarchus does not see the drift of 7 Phileb| of the one and the many.~Protarchus agrees to the proposal, 8 Phileb| indefinite, which alone, as Protarchus thinks (who seems to confuse 9 Phileb| Against this conclusion Protarchus reclaims.~Leaving his denial 10 Phileb| with the wise man whom Protarchus loves (and only a wise man 11 Phileb| there any inconsistency, Protarchus, with his statement in what 12 Phileb| our moral approval.~Like Protarchus in the Philebus, we can 13 Phileb| THE DIALOGUE: Socrates, Protarchus, Philebus.~SOCRATES: Observe, 14 Phileb| Philebus.~SOCRATES: Observe, Protarchus, the nature of the position 15 Phileb| I sum up the two sides?~PROTARCHUS: By all means.~SOCRATES: 16 Phileb| Socrates.~SOCRATES: And do you, Protarchus, accept the position which 17 Phileb| which is assigned to you?~PROTARCHUS: I cannot do otherwise, 18 Phileb| means, to be ascertained.~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Shall 19 Phileb| Shall we further agree—~PROTARCHUS: To what?~SOCRATES: That 20 Phileb| of making all men happy.~PROTARCHUS: Yes, by all means.~SOCRATES: 21 Phileb| wisdom, is such a state?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And what 22 Phileb| over the life of wisdom.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: Or suppose 23 Phileb| defeated;—do you agree?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And 24 Phileb| must decide for yourself, Protarchus.~PROTARCHUS: You, Philebus, 25 Phileb| for yourself, Protarchus.~PROTARCHUS: You, Philebus, have handed 26 Phileb| witness that I now do so.~PROTARCHUS: You may appeal to us; we 27 Phileb| her real name is Pleasure.~PROTARCHUS: Very good.~SOCRATES: The 28 Phileb| awe which I always feel, Protarchus, about the names of the 29 Phileb| pleasures are severally alike!~PROTARCHUS: Why, Socrates, they are 30 Phileb| opposition among pleasures.~PROTARCHUS: Very likely; but how will 31 Phileb| designate all of them as good.~PROTARCHUS: What do you mean, Socrates? 32 Phileb| and sometimes opposed?~PROTARCHUS: Not in so far as they are 33 Phileb| return to the old position, Protarchus, and so we are to say (are 34 Phileb| reasoners? (Probably corrupt.)~PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?~SOCRATES: 35 Phileb| understanding with one another.~PROTARCHUS: How do you mean?~SOCRATES: 36 Phileb| mean?~SOCRATES: Shall I, Protarchus, have my own question asked 37 Phileb| question asked of me by you?~PROTARCHUS: What question?~SOCRATES: 38 Phileb| pleasures of which you spoke.~PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?~SOCRATES: 39 Phileb| by clinging to a fallacy?~PROTARCHUS: May none of this befal 40 Phileb| us have no concealment, Protarchus, of the differences between 41 Phileb| fighting for the truth.~PROTARCHUS: Certainly we ought.~SOCRATES: 42 Phileb| which the argument rests.~PROTARCHUS: What principle?~SOCRATES: 43 Phileb| sometimes against their will.~PROTARCHUS: Speak plainer.~SOCRATES: 44 Phileb| is very open to attack.~PROTARCHUS: Do you mean, when a person 45 Phileb| when a person says that I, Protarchus, am by nature one and also 46 Phileb| other ways?~SOCRATES: Those, Protarchus, are the common and acknowledged 47 Phileb| and the many are only one.~PROTARCHUS: But what, Socrates, are 48 Phileb| birth to a controversy.~PROTARCHUS: Of what nature?~SOCRATES: 49 Phileb| and in many things? These, Protarchus, are the real difficulties, 50 Phileb| of them is very helpful.~PROTARCHUS: Then, Socrates, let us 51 Phileb| That is what I should wish.~PROTARCHUS: And I am sure that all 52 Phileb| issue? Shall we begin thus?~PROTARCHUS: How?~SOCRATES: We say that 53 Phileb| interpreter could only be found.~PROTARCHUS: Considering, Socrates, 54 Phileb| helpless in the hour of need.~PROTARCHUS: Tell us what that is.~SOCRATES: 55 Phileb| discoveries in the arts.~PROTARCHUS: Tell us what it is.~SOCRATES: 56 Phileb| disputation and true dialectic.~PROTARCHUS: I think that I partly understand 57 Phileb| letters of the alphabet, Protarchus, which you were made to 58 Phileb| made to learn as a child.~PROTARCHUS: How do they afford an illustration?~ 59 Phileb| is one and yet infinite.~PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And 60 Phileb| makes a man a grammarian.~PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And 61 Phileb| musician is of the same kind.~PROTARCHUS: How so?~SOCRATES: Sound 62 Phileb| music as well as in grammar?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And 63 Phileb| may we affirm so much?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: But you 64 Phileb| almost nothing of music.~PROTARCHUS: Nothing.~SOCRATES: But 65 Phileb| the number of famous men.~PROTARCHUS: I think that what Socrates 66 Phileb| asking that question of us, Protarchus.~PROTARCHUS: Indeed he is, 67 Phileb| question of us, Protarchus.~PROTARCHUS: Indeed he is, and you must 68 Phileb| to the case of letters.~PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?~SOCRATES: 69 Phileb| PHILEBUS: The illustration, Protarchus, has assisted me in understanding 70 Phileb| that is a question which Protarchus and I have been long asking.~ 71 Phileb| number of individuals).~PROTARCHUS: That is a very serious 72 Phileb| smallest use in any enquiry.~PROTARCHUS: That seems to be very near 73 Phileb| with her:—Am I not right?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And there 74 Phileb| more clearly as we proceed.~PROTARCHUS: Capital, Socrates; pray 75 Phileb| agree on some little points.~PROTARCHUS: What are they?~SOCRATES: 76 Phileb| good perfect or imperfect?~PROTARCHUS: The most perfect, Socrates, 77 Phileb| is the good sufficient?~PROTARCHUS: Yes, certainly, and in 78 Phileb| not accompanied by good.~PROTARCHUS: That is undeniable.~SOCRATES: 79 Phileb| and pass them in review.~PROTARCHUS: How do you mean?~SOCRATES: 80 Phileb| really be the chief good.~PROTARCHUS: Impossible.~SOCRATES: And 81 Phileb| to test these two lives?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Then 82 Phileb| SOCRATES: Then answer.~PROTARCHUS: Ask.~SOCRATES: Would you 83 Phileb| SOCRATES: Would you choose, Protarchus, to live all your life long 84 Phileb| the greatest pleasures?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly I should.~SOCRATES: 85 Phileb| you had perfect pleasure?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: 86 Phileb| at any rate want sight?~PROTARCHUS: Why should I? Having pleasure 87 Phileb| the greatest pleasures?~PROTARCHUS: I should.~SOCRATES: But 88 Phileb| devoid of intelligence.~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And 89 Phileb| Could this be otherwise?~PROTARCHUS: No.~SOCRATES: But is such 90 Phileb| is such a life eligible?~PROTARCHUS: I cannot answer you, Socrates; 91 Phileb| and examine it in turn.~PROTARCHUS: And what is this life of 92 Phileb| these and the like feelings?~PROTARCHUS: Neither life, Socrates, 93 Phileb| SOCRATES: What would you say, Protarchus, to both of these in one, 94 Phileb| of the union of the two?~PROTARCHUS: Out of the union, that 95 Phileb| is the life which I mean.~PROTARCHUS: There can be no difference 96 Phileb| you see the consequence?~PROTARCHUS: To be sure I do. The consequence 97 Phileb| some unhappy necessity.~PROTARCHUS: Certainly that seems to 98 Phileb| attain even to the third.~PROTARCHUS: Truly, Socrates, pleasure 99 Phileb| and finally detecting her?~PROTARCHUS: Nonsense, Socrates.~SOCRATES: 100 Phileb| which is an impossibility?~PROTARCHUS: Yes, and more than that, 101 Phileb| argument.~SOCRATES: Heavens! Protarchus, that will be a tedious 102 Phileb| then finish the argument?~PROTARCHUS: Of course you must.~SOCRATES: 103 Phileb| in laying the foundation.~PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?~SOCRATES: 104 Phileb| object, into three classes.~PROTARCHUS: Upon what principle would 105 Phileb| our newly-found notions.~PROTARCHUS: Which of them?~SOCRATES: 106 Phileb| existence, and also an infinite?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Let 107 Phileb| division and enumeration.~PROTARCHUS: What do you mean, my good 108 Phileb| fourth class is still wanted.~PROTARCHUS: What will that be?~SOCRATES: 109 Phileb| class to the three others.~PROTARCHUS: And would you like to have 110 Phileb| shall allow me to have it.~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Let 111 Phileb| there is a one and many.~PROTARCHUS: If you would explain to 112 Phileb| be hereafter discussed.~PROTARCHUS: I agree.~SOCRATES: And 113 Phileb| themselves have an end.~PROTARCHUS: That is most true.~SOCRATES: 114 Phileb| enters a more and a less.~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Then, says 115 Phileb| they must also be infinite.~PROTARCHUS: Yes, Socrates, that is 116 Phileb| SOCRATES: Yes, my dear Protarchus, and your answer reminds 117 Phileb| the class of the infinite.~PROTARCHUS: Your remark certainly has 118 Phileb| a note of the infinite—~PROTARCHUS: What?~SOCRATES: I want 119 Phileb| upon them—do you remember?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And all 120 Phileb| finite; what do you say?~PROTARCHUS: Excellent, Socrates.~SOCRATES: 121 Phileb| third or compound kind?~PROTARCHUS: You, I think, will have 122 Phileb| will listen to my prayers.~PROTARCHUS: Offer up a prayer, then, 123 Phileb| SOCRATES: I am thinking, Protarchus, and I believe that some 124 Phileb| some God has befriended us.~PROTARCHUS: What do you mean, and what 125 Phileb| you listen to my words.~PROTARCHUS: Proceed.~SOCRATES: Were 126 Phileb| now of hotter and colder?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: Add to 127 Phileb| unity of more and less.~PROTARCHUS: In the class of the infinite, 128 Phileb| mingle this with the other.~PROTARCHUS: What is the other.~SOCRATES: 129 Phileb| combined, a third will appear.~PROTARCHUS: What do you mean by the 130 Phileb| the different elements.~PROTARCHUS: I understand; you seem 131 Phileb| Yes, that is my meaning.~PROTARCHUS: Proceed.~SOCRATES: Does 132 Phileb| in disease, for instance?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And 133 Phileb| the whole frame of music?~PROTARCHUS: Yes, certainly.~SOCRATES: 134 Phileb| moderation and harmony?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And 135 Phileb| all the delights of life?~PROTARCHUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: I 136 Phileb| the soul.— What think you, Protarchus?~PROTARCHUS: Her ways are 137 Phileb| What think you, Protarchus?~PROTARCHUS: Her ways are much to my 138 Phileb| spoken of three classes?~PROTARCHUS: Yes, I think that I understand 139 Phileb| therefore appeared one.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And the 140 Phileb| it to be by nature one?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Yes, indeed; 141 Phileb| which the limit introduces.~PROTARCHUS: I understand.~SOCRATES: 142 Phileb| into being through a cause?~PROTARCHUS: Yes, certainly; for how 143 Phileb| may be rightly called one?~PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And 144 Phileb| only in name—shall we not?~PROTARCHUS: We shall.~SOCRATES: The 145 Phileb| effect naturally follows it?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Then 146 Phileb| the same, but different?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: Did not 147 Phileb| furnish all the three classes?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And the 148 Phileb| called a fourth principle?~PROTARCHUS: So let us call it.~SOCRATES: 149 Phileb| recapitulating each of them in order.~PROTARCHUS: By all means.~SOCRATES: 150 Phileb| generation as the fourth.~PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: 151 Phileb| belonged to pleasure or wisdom?~PROTARCHUS: We were.~SOCRATES: And 152 Phileb| original subject of dispute?~PROTARCHUS: I dare say.~SOCRATES: We 153 Phileb| the conqueror—did we not?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And we 154 Phileb| class it is to be assigned?~PROTARCHUS: Beyond a doubt.~SOCRATES: 155 Phileb| comprehend the conqueror life.~PROTARCHUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: And 156 Phileb| the aforesaid classes, O Protarchus and Philebus, can we without 157 Phileb| to answer the question.~PROTARCHUS: Socrates is quite right, 158 Phileb| PHILEBUS: And did not you, Protarchus, propose to answer in my 159 Phileb| propose to answer in my place?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly I did; but I 160 Phileb| SOCRATES: I must obey you, Protarchus; nor is the task which you 161 Phileb| mind and knowledge belong?~PROTARCHUS: You did, indeed, Socrates.~ 162 Phileb| good; let us begin then, Protarchus, by asking a question.~PROTARCHUS: 163 Phileb| Protarchus, by asking a question.~PROTARCHUS: What question?~SOCRATES: 164 Phileb| intelligence and wisdom.~PROTARCHUS: Wide asunder are the two 165 Phileb| declares that all is disorder?~PROTARCHUS: That would certainly be 166 Phileb| next stage of the argument.~PROTARCHUS: Let me hear.~SOCRATES: 167 Phileb| constitution of the world.~PROTARCHUS: The proverb may be applied 168 Phileb| each of these elements.~PROTARCHUS: What is it?~SOCRATES: Only 169 Phileb| us, and in the universe.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And is 170 Phileb| every power that fire has.~PROTARCHUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: And 171 Phileb| dependent on the universal fire?~PROTARCHUS: That is a question which 172 Phileb| all the other elements?~PROTARCHUS: Why, how could any man 173 Phileb| we not call them a body?~PROTARCHUS: We did.~SOCRATES: And the 174 Phileb| up of the same elements.~PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: But 175 Phileb| were just now speaking?~PROTARCHUS: That again, Socrates, is 176 Phileb| this question worth asking?~PROTARCHUS: What question?~SOCRATES: 177 Phileb| be said to have a soul?~PROTARCHUS: Clearly.~SOCRATES: And 178 Phileb| comes that soul, my dear Protarchus, unless the body of the 179 Phileb| there be another source?~PROTARCHUS: Clearly, Socrates, that 180 Phileb| source.~SOCRATES: Why, yes, Protarchus; for surely we cannot imagine 181 Phileb| noblest and fairest things?~PROTARCHUS: Such a supposition is quite 182 Phileb| called wisdom and mind?~PROTARCHUS: Most justly.~SOCRATES: 183 Phileb| cannot exist without soul?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: 184 Phileb| are pleased to be called.~PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: Do 185 Phileb| are rashly spoken by us, O Protarchus, for they are in harmony 186 Phileb| mind rules the universe.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And they 187 Phileb| you now have my answer.~PROTARCHUS: I have indeed, and yet 188 Phileb| is sometimes refreshing, Protarchus, when it interrupts earnest.~ 189 Phileb| when it interrupts earnest.~PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: I 190 Phileb| what is the power of mind.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And the 191 Phileb| been long ago discovered?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And let 192 Phileb| middle, or end of its own.~PROTARCHUS: I shall be sure to remember.~ 193 Phileb| tested apart from pain.~PROTARCHUS: If this is the road, let 194 Phileb| origin of pleasure and pain.~PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?~SOCRATES: 195 Phileb| seat is in the mixed class.~PROTARCHUS: And would you tell me again, 196 Phileb| the best of my ability.~PROTARCHUS: Very good.~SOCRATES: Let 197 Phileb| third in the list of four.~PROTARCHUS: That which followed the 198 Phileb| me your best attention?~PROTARCHUS: Proceed; I am attending.~ 199 Phileb| and a generation of pain.~PROTARCHUS: That is very probable.~ 200 Phileb| of the greatest moment.~PROTARCHUS: I believe that you are 201 Phileb| the simplest illustration?~PROTARCHUS: What phenomena do you mean?~ 202 Phileb| dissolution and a pain.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: Whereas 203 Phileb| replenishment and a pleasure?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Thirst again 204 Phileb| refrigeration is pleasant.~PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And 205 Phileb| own nature is pleasure?~PROTARCHUS: Granted; what you say has 206 Phileb| which we have described?~PROTARCHUS: Good.~SOCRATES: Let us 207 Phileb| pain, fearful and anxious.~PROTARCHUS: Yes; this is another class 208 Phileb| admitting of the nature of good.~PROTARCHUS: You say most truly that 209 Phileb| or pain, great or small?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: 210 Phileb| of pleasure and of pain?~PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And 211 Phileb| say a few words about it.~PROTARCHUS: What have you to say?~SOCRATES: 212 Phileb| live in this neutral state.~PROTARCHUS: You mean that he may live 213 Phileb| life of thought and wisdom.~PROTARCHUS: Yes, certainly, we said 214 Phileb| most divine of all lives?~PROTARCHUS: If so, the gods, at any 215 Phileb| have to resign the first.~PROTARCHUS: Just so.~SOCRATES: The 216 Phileb| entirely derived from memory.~PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?~SOCRATES: 217 Phileb| be properly cleared up.~PROTARCHUS: How will you proceed?~SOCRATES: 218 Phileb| both and to each of them.~PROTARCHUS: Granted.~SOCRATES: And 219 Phileb| first but not of the second?~PROTARCHUS: Quite true.~SOCRATES: When 220 Phileb| contradiction; do you see?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Then just 221 Phileb| as to change the terms.~PROTARCHUS: How shall I change them?~ 222 Phileb| body, say unconsciousness.~PROTARCHUS: I see.~SOCRATES: And the 223 Phileb| properly called consciousness?~PROTARCHUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: Then 224 Phileb| the meaning of the word?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And memory 225 Phileb| preservation of consciousness?~PROTARCHUS: Right.~SOCRATES: But do 226 Phileb| memory from recollection?~PROTARCHUS: I think so.~SOCRATES: And 227 Phileb| in company with the body?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And 228 Phileb| recollection and reminiscence?~PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: There 229 Phileb| reason why I say all this.~PROTARCHUS: What is it?~SOCRATES: I 230 Phileb| show the nature of both.~PROTARCHUS: Then now, Socrates, let 231 Phileb| nature and seat of desire.~PROTARCHUS: Ay; let us enquire into 232 Phileb| nothing.~SOCRATES: Nay, Protarchus, we shall surely lose the 233 Phileb| puzzle if we find the answer.~PROTARCHUS: A fair retort; but let 234 Phileb| in the class of desires?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And 235 Phileb| call them by a single name?~PROTARCHUS: By heavens, Socrates, that 236 Phileb| go back to our examples.~PROTARCHUS: Where shall we begin?~SOCRATES: 237 Phileb| we say ‘a man thirsts’?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: We mean 238 Phileb| say that he ‘is empty’?~PROTARCHUS: Of course.~SOCRATES: And 239 Phileb| And is not thirst desire?~PROTARCHUS: Yes, of drink.~SOCRATES: 240 Phileb| replenishment with drink?~PROTARCHUS: I should say, of replenishment 241 Phileb| and desires to be full?~PROTARCHUS: Clearly so.~SOCRATES: But 242 Phileb| present or past experience?~PROTARCHUS: Impossible.~SOCRATES: And 243 Phileb| surely desires something?~PROTARCHUS: Of course.~SOCRATES: He 244 Phileb| he desires replenishment?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: Then there 245 Phileb| apprehends replenishment?~PROTARCHUS: There must.~SOCRATES: And 246 Phileb| supposed to be emptied?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: The only 247 Phileb| other way can there be?~PROTARCHUS: I cannot imagine any other.~ 248 Phileb| you see the consequence?~PROTARCHUS: What is it?~SOCRATES: That 249 Phileb| thing as desire of the body.~PROTARCHUS: Why so?~SOCRATES: Why, 250 Phileb| reverse of his bodily state.~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And the 251 Phileb| memory of the opposite state.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And the 252 Phileb| their origin in the soul.~PROTARCHUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: The 253 Phileb| any similar experience.~PROTARCHUS: Quite right.~SOCRATES: 254 Phileb| consists in these affections.~PROTARCHUS: Of what affections, and 255 Phileb| pleasure which succeeds to it.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And what 256 Phileb| the intermediate state?~PROTARCHUS: What do you mean by ‘intermediate’?~ 257 Phileb| in an intermediate state?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Would 258 Phileb| pained or wholly pleased?~PROTARCHUS: Nay, I should say that 259 Phileb| SOCRATES: What do you mean, Protarchus, by the two pains? May not 260 Phileb| times be quite in despair?~PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And 261 Phileb| at the same time in pain?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Then 262 Phileb| both pleasure and pain?~PROTARCHUS: I suppose so.~SOCRATES: 263 Phileb| the single case possible.~PROTARCHUS: Quite true, Socrates.~SOCRATES: 264 Phileb| occasion of raising a question?~PROTARCHUS: What question?~SOCRATES: 265 Phileb| some true and some false?~PROTARCHUS: But how, Socrates, can 266 Phileb| pains?~SOCRATES: And how, Protarchus, can there be true and false 267 Phileb| true and false opinions?~PROTARCHUS: I grant that opinions may 268 Phileb| a very serious enquiry.~PROTARCHUS: There I agree.~SOCRATES: 269 Phileb| relevant to the argument.~PROTARCHUS: Surely.~SOCRATES: No tedious 270 Phileb| said should be pertinent.~PROTARCHUS: Right.~SOCRATES: I am always 271 Phileb| which has now been raised.~PROTARCHUS: How so?~SOCRATES: Do you 272 Phileb| false, and others true?~PROTARCHUS: To be sure I do.~SOCRATES: 273 Phileb| waking, mad or lunatic?~PROTARCHUS: So we have always held, 274 Phileb| the truth of your opinion?~PROTARCHUS: I think that we should.~ 275 Phileb| such a thing as opinion?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And such 276 Phileb| such a thing as pleasure?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And an opinion 277 Phileb| opinion must be of something?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And a man 278 Phileb| be pleased by something?~PROTARCHUS: Quite correct.~SOCRATES: 279 Phileb| will still be an opinion?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And 280 Phileb| real feeling of pleasure?~PROTARCHUS: Yes; that is also quite 281 Phileb| opinion are both equally real?~PROTARCHUS: Yes; that is the question.~ 282 Phileb| think should be examined?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And further, 283 Phileb| simple and devoid of quality?~PROTARCHUS: Clearly.~SOCRATES: But 284 Phileb| indeed said long ago by us.~PROTARCHUS: Quite true.~SOCRATES: And 285 Phileb| attaches to any of them, Protarchus, then we should speak of 286 Phileb| opinion or of a bad pleasure?~PROTARCHUS: Quite true, Socrates.~SOCRATES: 287 Phileb| the reverse of rightness?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And 288 Phileb| right or rightly opined?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And 289 Phileb| by any honourable name?~PROTARCHUS: Not if the pleasure is 290 Phileb| is not true, but false?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly it does; and 291 Phileb| SOCRATES: How eagerly, Protarchus, do you rush to the defence 292 Phileb| the defence of pleasure!~PROTARCHUS: Nay, Socrates, I only repeat 293 Phileb| falsehood and ignorance?~PROTARCHUS: There must be a very great 294 Phileb| contemplate this difference.~PROTARCHUS: Lead, and I will follow.~ 295 Phileb| Well, then, my view is—~PROTARCHUS: What is it?~SOCRATES: We 296 Phileb| a thing as true opinion?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And pleasure 297 Phileb| and false opinion, I mean.~PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And 298 Phileb| from memory and perception?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Might 299 Phileb| something of this nature?~PROTARCHUS: Of what nature?~SOCRATES: 300 Phileb| what it is which he sees.~PROTARCHUS: Very likely.~SOCRATES: 301 Phileb| to interrogate himself.~PROTARCHUS: In what manner?~SOCRATES: 302 Phileb| sees such an appearance.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: To which 303 Phileb| to himself—‘It is a man.’~PROTARCHUS: Very good.~SOCRATES: Or 304 Phileb| made by the shepherds.’~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And if he 305 Phileb| now become a proposition.~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: But 306 Phileb| for a considerable time.~PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: Well, 307 Phileb| explanation of this phenomenon.~PROTARCHUS: What is your explanation?~ 308 Phileb| such times is like a book.~PROTARCHUS: How so?~SOCRATES: Memory 309 Phileb| falsely, the result is false.~PROTARCHUS: I quite assent and agree 310 Phileb| the chambers of the soul.~PROTARCHUS: Who is he?~SOCRATES: The 311 Phileb| which he has described.~PROTARCHUS: But when and how does he 312 Phileb| common mental phenomenon?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And 313 Phileb| words false; are they not?~PROTARCHUS: They are.~SOCRATES: If 314 Phileb| arises a further question.~PROTARCHUS: What is it?~SOCRATES: Whether 315 Phileb| relation to the future also?~PROTARCHUS: I should say in relation 316 Phileb| have to do with the future?~PROTARCHUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: And 317 Phileb| and not to the future?~PROTARCHUS: To the future, very much.~ 318 Phileb| every stage of existence?~PROTARCHUS: Exactly.~SOCRATES: Answer 319 Phileb| Answer me another question.~PROTARCHUS: What question?~SOCRATES: 320 Phileb| of the gods; is he not?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly he is.~SOCRATES: 321 Phileb| bad man is the reverse?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And all 322 Phileb| always filled with hopes?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And 323 Phileb| the minds of each of us?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And the 324 Phileb| rejoicing over his good fortune.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And may 325 Phileb| the bad false pictures?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: The 326 Phileb| they are false pleasures.~PROTARCHUS: They are.~SOCRATES: The 327 Phileb| good in true pleasures?~PROTARCHUS: Doubtless.~SOCRATES: Then 328 Phileb| of a similar character?~PROTARCHUS: There are.~SOCRATES: And 329 Phileb| past, present, or future?~PROTARCHUS: Quite true.~SOCRATES: And 330 Phileb| opining; am I not right?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And must 331 Phileb| but illusory character?~PROTARCHUS: How do you mean?~SOCRATES: 332 Phileb| are never likely to exist.~PROTARCHUS: Yes, Socrates, that again 333 Phileb| are they not often false?~PROTARCHUS: Quite so.~SOCRATES: And 334 Phileb| they are true or false?~PROTARCHUS: In no other way.~SOCRATES: 335 Phileb| so far as they are false.~PROTARCHUS: Nay, Socrates, that is 336 Phileb| assist our final decision.~PROTARCHUS: Very true; that is to say, 337 Phileb| I think that there are, Protarchus; but this is an opinion 338 Phileb| rest upon a mere assertion.~PROTARCHUS: Very good.~SOCRATES: Then 339 Phileb| grasp this new argument.~PROTARCHUS: Proceed.~SOCRATES: We were 340 Phileb| the soul—do you remember?~PROTARCHUS: Yes, I remember that you 341 Phileb| pain which was experienced.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: Then now 342 Phileb| what happens in such cases.~PROTARCHUS: What am I to infer?~SOCRATES: 343 Phileb| has been already shown.~PROTARCHUS: Clearly.~SOCRATES: And 344 Phileb| to which we have agreed.~PROTARCHUS: What is it?~SOCRATES: That 345 Phileb| the class of infinites.~PROTARCHUS: Certainly, we said so.~ 346 Phileb| we rightly judge of them?~PROTARCHUS: How can we?~SOCRATES: Is 347 Phileb| pleasure against pleasure?~PROTARCHUS: Yes, such is our intention, 348 Phileb| of pleasures and pains?~PROTARCHUS: Yes, Socrates, and in a 349 Phileb| what we were saying before.~PROTARCHUS: What was that?~SOCRATES: 350 Phileb| with their own falsity.~PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: But 351 Phileb| side with the pleasures.~PROTARCHUS: Certainly, and for the 352 Phileb| or pain is real or true.~PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: 353 Phileb| still more false than these.~PROTARCHUS: What are they, and how 354 Phileb| also by growth and decay?~PROTARCHUS: Yes, that has been often 355 Phileb| natural state is pleasure?~PROTARCHUS: Right.~SOCRATES: But now 356 Phileb| experiences none of these changes.~PROTARCHUS: When can that be, Socrates?~ 357 Phileb| SOCRATES: Your question, Protarchus, does not help the argument.~ 358 Phileb| does not help the argument.~PROTARCHUS: Why not, Socrates?~SOCRATES: 359 Phileb| me from repeating mine.~PROTARCHUS: And what was that?~SOCRATES: 360 Phileb| was that?~SOCRATES: Why, Protarchus, admitting that there is 361 Phileb| consequence if there were?~PROTARCHUS: You mean, what would happen 362 Phileb| good or bad?~SOCRATES: Yes.~PROTARCHUS: Why then, Socrates, I should 363 Phileb| ever flowing up and down.~PROTARCHUS: Yes, and their words are 364 Phileb| the partner of my flight.~PROTARCHUS: How?~SOCRATES: To them 365 Phileb| You must answer for them.~PROTARCHUS: The latter alternative 366 Phileb| cause pleasures and pains?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: A better 367 Phileb| way of speaking will be—~PROTARCHUS: What?~SOCRATES: If we say 368 Phileb| lesser ones do neither.~PROTARCHUS: That, Socrates, is the 369 Phileb| referring again appears.~PROTARCHUS: What life?~SOCRATES: The 370 Phileb| either of pain or of joy.~PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: We 371 Phileb| is neither; what say you?~PROTARCHUS: I should say as you do 372 Phileb| the same with pleasure.~PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: 373 Phileb| mean by that statement?~PROTARCHUS: I think that by pleasure 374 Phileb| third which is neither.~PROTARCHUS: Very good.~SOCRATES: Now, 375 Phileb| be either gold or silver?~PROTARCHUS: Impossible.~SOCRATES: No 376 Phileb| as pleasant or painful.~PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: 377 Phileb| persons who say and think so.~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And 378 Phileb| they are free from pain?~PROTARCHUS: They say so.~SOCRATES: 379 Phileb| that they have pleasure.~PROTARCHUS: I suppose not.~SOCRATES: 380 Phileb| natures, they are wrong.~PROTARCHUS: But they are undoubtedly 381 Phileb| and is called pleasant?~PROTARCHUS: But why, Socrates, do we 382 Phileb| the reason.~SOCRATES: You, Protarchus, have clearly never heard 383 Phileb| of our friend Philebus.~PROTARCHUS: And who may they be?~SOCRATES: 384 Phileb| very existence of pleasure.~PROTARCHUS: Indeed!~SOCRATES: They 385 Phileb| only avoidances of pain.~PROTARCHUS: And would you, Socrates, 386 Phileb| bring her up for judgment.~PROTARCHUS: Well said.~SOCRATES: Then 387 Phileb| at the least hard? You, Protarchus, shall answer these severe 388 Phileb| gentlemen as you answer me.~PROTARCHUS: By all means, and I reply 389 Phileb| extreme and most vehement?~PROTARCHUS: In that every one will 390 Phileb| the pleasures of the body?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And 391 Phileb| we shall come to grief.~PROTARCHUS: How will that be?~SOCRATES: 392 Phileb| When we are in health.’~PROTARCHUS: Yes, that is the natural 393 Phileb| have the greatest desires?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And do 394 Phileb| satisfaction of their want?~PROTARCHUS: That is obvious as soon 395 Phileb| deny her very existence.~PROTARCHUS: I think I follow you.~SOCRATES: 396 Phileb| showing whether you do or not, Protarchus. Answer now, and tell me 397 Phileb| Reflect before you speak.~PROTARCHUS: I understand you, and see 398 Phileb| not in a virtuous state.~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And 399 Phileb| makes them the greatest?~PROTARCHUS: To be sure we ought.~SOCRATES: 400 Phileb| out of certain disorders.~PROTARCHUS: What disorders?~SOCRATES: 401 Phileb| friends utterly detest.~PROTARCHUS: What pleasures?~SOCRATES: 402 Phileb| in us?—Pleasure or pain?~PROTARCHUS: A villainous mixture of 403 Phileb| introduce the argument, O Protarchus, with any personal reference 404 Phileb| determine the point at issue.~PROTARCHUS: Then we had better proceed 405 Phileb| which are mingled with pain?~PROTARCHUS: Exactly.~SOCRATES: There 406 Phileb| pleasures and sometimes pains.~PROTARCHUS: How is that?~SOCRATES: 407 Phileb| drive him to distraction.~PROTARCHUS: That description is very 408 Phileb| other of them predominates?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: Of cases 409 Phileb| juxtaposition of pleasure and pain.~PROTARCHUS: Quite so.~SOCRATES: Sometimes 410 Phileb| irrational exclamations.~PROTARCHUS: Yes, indeed.~SOCRATES: 411 Phileb| the happiest of mankind.~PROTARCHUS: That, Socrates, is a very 412 Phileb| pleasures.~SOCRATES: Yes, Protarchus, quite true of the mixed 413 Phileb| and pain coalesce in one.~PROTARCHUS: I believe that to be quite 414 Phileb| of pleasures and pains.~PROTARCHUS: What is that?~SOCRATES: 415 Phileb| purely mental feelings.~PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?~SOCRATES: 416 Phileb| belong to the soul only?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And shall 417 Phileb| lamentation and bereavement?~PROTARCHUS: Yes, there is a natural 418 Phileb| smile through their tears?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly I do.~SOCRATES: 419 Phileb| feeling of pain and pleasure?~PROTARCHUS: I do not quite understand 420 Phileb| you.~SOCRATES: I admit, Protarchus, that there is some difficulty 421 Phileb| of feelings at a comedy.~PROTARCHUS: There is, I think.~SOCRATES: 422 Phileb| and pains will be less.~PROTARCHUS: Proceed.~SOCRATES: I have 423 Phileb| that a pain of the soul?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And yet 424 Phileb| at which he is pleased?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And 425 Phileb| clownishness, are surely an evil?~PROTARCHUS: To be sure.~SOCRATES: From 426 Phileb| nature of the ridiculous.~PROTARCHUS: Explain.~SOCRATES: The 427 Phileb| the inscription at Delphi.~PROTARCHUS: You mean, Socrates, ‘Know 428 Phileb| be, ‘Know not thyself.’~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And 429 Phileb| Certainly.~SOCRATES: And now, O Protarchus, try to divide this into 430 Phileb| divide this into three.~PROTARCHUS: Indeed I am afraid that 431 Phileb| make the division for you?~PROTARCHUS: Yes, and what is more, 432 Phileb| ignorance of self may be shown?~PROTARCHUS: What are they?~SOCRATES: 433 Phileb| himself richer than he is.~PROTARCHUS: Yes, that is a very common 434 Phileb| which he really has not.~PROTARCHUS: Of course.~SOCRATES: And 435 Phileb| better men than they are.~PROTARCHUS: Yes, that is by far the 436 Phileb| lying conceit of wisdom?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And 437 Phileb| called an evil condition?~PROTARCHUS: Very evil.~SOCRATES: But 438 Phileb| division a step further, Protarchus, if we would see in envy 439 Phileb| mixture of pleasure and pain.~PROTARCHUS: How can we make the further 440 Phileb| and the other the reverse.~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Let 441 Phileb| in truth is, ridiculous.~PROTARCHUS: That is very true, but 442 Phileb| examine the nature of envy.~PROTARCHUS: Proceed.~SOCRATES: Is not 443 Phileb| also an unrighteous pain?~PROTARCHUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: There 444 Phileb| misfortunes of enemies?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: 445 Phileb| misfortunes—is not that wrong?~PROTARCHUS: Undoubtedly.~SOCRATES: 446 Phileb| ignorance was always an evil?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And the 447 Phileb| are simply ridiculous?~PROTARCHUS: They are ridiculous.~SOCRATES: 448 Phileb| theirs to be a misfortune?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And 449 Phileb| pleasure in laughing at it?~PROTARCHUS: Clearly we feel pleasure.~ 450 Phileb| misfortunes of friends?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Then 451 Phileb| laugh at the same instant.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And the 452 Phileb| in endless other cases.~PROTARCHUS: I do not see how any one 453 Phileb| often named; did I not?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: We may observe 454 Phileb| sorrow and envy and anger.~PROTARCHUS: I see.~SOCRATES: Then many 455 Phileb| other cases still remain?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And 456 Phileb| which Philebus demands.~PROTARCHUS: Very good, Socrates; in 457 Phileb| natural and necessary order.~PROTARCHUS: Excellent.~SOCRATES: These, 458 Phileb| both of body and mind.~PROTARCHUS: Then what pleasures, Socrates, 459 Phileb| and unalloyed with pain.~PROTARCHUS: Once more, Socrates, I 460 Phileb| you understand my meaning?~PROTARCHUS: I am trying to understand, 461 Phileb| pleasures associated with them.~PROTARCHUS: Yes, there are such pleasures.~ 462 Phileb| two kinds of pleasures.~PROTARCHUS: I understand.~SOCRATES: 463 Phileb| such hunger precede them.~PROTARCHUS: And this is the case.~SOCRATES: 464 Phileb| not pains of forgetting?~PROTARCHUS: Not necessarily, but there 465 Phileb| nothing to do with reflection.~PROTARCHUS: In that case you are right 466 Phileb| many but of a very few.~PROTARCHUS: Quite true.~SOCRATES: And 467 Phileb| class which has measure.~PROTARCHUS: Quite right, Socrates.~ 468 Phileb| considered about pleasures.~PROTARCHUS: What is it?~SOCRATES: When 469 Phileb| these terms stand to truth?~PROTARCHUS: Why do you ask, Socrates?~ 470 Phileb| Socrates?~SOCRATES: Because, Protarchus, I should wish to test pleasure 471 Phileb| by me and by all of us.~PROTARCHUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: Let 472 Phileb| consideration a single instance.~PROTARCHUS: What instance shall we 473 Phileb| first of all take whiteness.~PROTARCHUS: Very good.~SOCRATES: How 474 Phileb| admixture of other colours?~PROTARCHUS: Clearly that which is most 475 Phileb| unadulterated.~SOCRATES: True, Protarchus; and so the purest white, 476 Phileb| truest and most beautiful?~PROTARCHUS: Right.~SOCRATES: And we 477 Phileb| great deal that is mixed.~PROTARCHUS: Perfectly right.~SOCRATES: 478 Phileb| pleasure of another kind.~PROTARCHUS: Assuredly; and the instance 479 Phileb| to be grateful to them?~PROTARCHUS: What do they mean?~SOCRATES: 480 Phileb| explain to you, my dear Protarchus, what they mean, by putting 481 Phileb| by putting a question.~PROTARCHUS: Ask, and I will answer.~ 482 Phileb| ever in want of something.~PROTARCHUS: What manner of natures 483 Phileb| ever, the other inferior.~PROTARCHUS: You speak riddles.~SOCRATES: 484 Phileb| also brave lovers of them.~PROTARCHUS: I should think so.~SOCRATES: 485 Phileb| are present everywhere.~PROTARCHUS: Yet a third time I must 486 Phileb| There is no difficulty, Protarchus; the argument is only in 487 Phileb| class subserve (absolutes).~PROTARCHUS: Your many repetitions make 488 Phileb| meaning will become clearer.~PROTARCHUS: Very likely.~SOCRATES: 489 Phileb| are two new principles.~PROTARCHUS: What are they?~SOCRATES: 490 Phileb| and the other is essence.~PROTARCHUS: I readily accept from you 491 Phileb| the sake of generation?~PROTARCHUS: You want to know whether 492 Phileb| generation?~SOCRATES: Yes.~PROTARCHUS: By the gods, I wish that 493 Phileb| SOCRATES: I mean, O my Protarchus, to ask whether you would 494 Phileb| should ask the same question.~PROTARCHUS: Why do you not answer yourself, 495 Phileb| you must take your part.~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: My 496 Phileb| to the whole of essence.~PROTARCHUS: Assuredly.~SOCRATES: Then 497 Phileb| the sake of some essence?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And that 498 Phileb| other class, my good friend.~PROTARCHUS: Most certainly.~SOCRATES: 499 Phileb| class than that of good?~PROTARCHUS: Quite right.~SOCRATES: 500 Phileb| of pleasure being a good.~PROTARCHUS: Assuredly.~SOCRATES: And