Dialogue

  1 Repub|           the individual and to the State; but when you want to use
  2 Repub|            the ruling power in each State? ~Certainly. ~And the different
  3 Repub|             their dealings with the State: when there is an income-tax,
  4 Repub|            as a ruler, whether in a State or in private life, could
  5 Repub|           You would not deny that a State may be unjust and may be
  6 Repub|           and most perfectly unjust State will be most likely to do
  7 Repub|           possessed by the superior State can exist or be exercised
  8 Repub|            whether you think that a State, or an army, or a band of
  9 Repub|             II: THE INDIVIDUAL, THE STATE, AND EDUCATION~(SOCRATES,
 10 Repub|            he must be imagined in a state of life the opposite of
 11 Repub|        sometimes as the virtue of a State. ~True, he replied. ~And
 12 Repub|           he replied. ~And is not a State larger than an individual? ~
 13 Repub|         first as they appear in the State, and secondly in the individual,
 14 Repub|               And if we imagine the State in process of creation,
 15 Repub|        justice and injustice of the State in process of creation also. ~
 16 Repub|               I dare say. ~When the State is completed there may be
 17 Repub|         that you should proceed. ~A State, I said, arises, as I conceive,
 18 Repub|           Can any other origin of a State be imagined? ~There can
 19 Repub|             inhabitants is termed a State. ~True, he said. ~And they
 20 Repub|          begin and create in idea a State; and yet the true creator
 21 Repub|              The barest notion of a State must include four or five
 22 Repub|            be sharers in our little State, which is already beginning
 23 Repub|         fleeces and hides-still our State will not be very large. ~
 24 Repub|             will it be a very small State which contains all these. ~
 25 Repub|           society and constituted a State. ~Clearly they will buy
 26 Repub|            of retail-traders in our State. Is not "retailer" the term
 27 Repub|             now, Adeimantus, is our State matured and perfected? ~
 28 Repub|             and in what part of the State did they spring up? ~Probably
 29 Repub|         consider is, not only how a State, but how a luxurious State
 30 Repub|          State, but how a luxurious State is created; and possibly
 31 Repub|         harm in this, for in such a State we shall be more likely
 32 Repub|         healthy constitution of the State is the one which I have
 33 Repub|           if you wish also to see a State at fever-heat, I have no
 34 Repub|            for the original healthy State is no longer sufficient.
 35 Repub|           the former edition of our State, but are needed now? They
 36 Repub|               Undoubtedly. ~And our State must once more enlarge;
 37 Repub|            when we were framing the State. The principle, as you will
 38 Repub|           and noble guardian of the State will require to unite in
 39 Repub|           not to be repeated in our State; the young man should not
 40 Repub|            not be admitted into our State, whether they are supposed
 41 Repub|            poets, but founders of a State: now the founders of a State
 42 Repub|        State: now the founders of a State ought to know the general
 43 Repub|            lying, the rulers of the State should be the persons; and
 44 Repub|         beside himself lying in the State, ~"Any of the craftsmen,
 45 Repub|          and destructive of ship or State. ~Most certainly, he said,
 46 Repub|            said, if our idea of the State is ever carried out. ~In
 47 Repub|            had never been in such a state of rapture before, even
 48 Repub|          shall be admitted into our State? ~Yes, I said; but there
 49 Repub|       maintenance of freedom in the State, making this their craft,
 50 Repub|           shall we receive into our State all the three styles, or
 51 Repub|          style is unsuitable to our State, in which human nature is
 52 Repub|            is the reason why in our State, and in our State only,
 53 Repub|            in our State, and in our State only, we shall find a shoemaker
 54 Repub|         also inform him that in our State such as he are not permitted
 55 Repub|             you admit them into our State when you reflect that in
 56 Repub|           unconsciously purging the State, which not long ago we termed
 57 Repub|         else, of expulsion from our State? Or is the same control
 58 Repub|           practising his art in our State, lest the taste of our citizens
 59 Repub|          and diseases multiply in a State, halls of justice and medicine
 60 Repub|            of a bad and disgraceful state of education than this,
 61 Repub|            an army, or an office of state; and, what is most Important
 62 Repub|          constant anxiety about the state of his body. ~Yes, likely
 63 Repub|     consulting the interests of the State; but bodies which disease
 64 Repub|        either to himself, or to the State. ~Then, he said, you regard
 65 Repub|             be good physicians in a State, and are not the best those
 66 Repub|           you will sanction in your State. They will minister to better
 67 Repub|            the patients and for the State. ~And thus our youth, having
 68 Repub|           be always required in our State if the government is to
 69 Repub|          have a special care of the State? ~True. ~And a man will
 70 Repub|          their sense of duty to the State. ~How cast off? he said. ~
 71 Repub|           think the interest of the State is to be the rule of their
 72 Repub|           the individual and to the State. And he who at every age,
 73 Repub|           ruler and guardian of the State; he shall be honored in
 74 Repub|            brass or iron guards the State, it will be destroyed. Such
 75 Repub|         will be the saviours of the State. But should they ever acquire
 76 Repub|   themselves and to the rest of the State, will be at hand. For all
 77 Repub|             say that thus shall our State be ordered, and that these
 78 Repub|             our aim in founding the State was not the disproportionate
 79 Repub|         whole; we thought that in a State which is ordered with a
 80 Repub|              and in the ill-ordered State injustice: and, having found
 81 Repub|            are fashioning the happy State, not piecemeal, or with
 82 Repub|           view the opposite kind of State. Suppose that we were painting
 83 Repub|           as you imagine, the whole State would be happy. But do not
 84 Repub|           any distinct class in the State. Now this is not of much
 85 Repub|          then see how they turn the State upside down; and on the
 86 Repub|          order and happiness to the State. We mean our guardians to
 87 Repub|           not the destroyers of the State, whereas our opponent is
 88 Repub|             doing their duty to the State. But, if so, we mean different
 89 Repub|            something which is not a State. And therefore we must consider
 90 Repub|            not rather reside in the State as a whole. But if the latter
 91 Repub|             way. And thus the whole State will grow up in a noble
 92 Repub|             be a danger to the poor State if the wealth of many States
 93 Repub|       simple of you to use the term State at all of any but our own! ~
 94 Repub|        treated them all as a single State. But if you deal with them
 95 Repub|          not many enemies. And your State, while the wise order which
 96 Repub|             000 defenders. A single State which is her equal you will
 97 Repub|         considering the size of the State and the amount of territory
 98 Repub|         propose? ~I would allow the State to increase so far as is
 99 Repub|            them. ~Also, I said, the State, if once started well, moves
100 Repub|         full of danger to the whole State, and ought to be prohibited.
101 Repub|             fundamental laws of the State always change with them. ~
102 Repub|       places [a] [principle] in the State will raise them up again. ~
103 Repub|     ill-ordered or in a wellordered State; for in the former they
104 Repub|             the assumption that our State, if rightly ordered, is
105 Repub|            qualities we find in the State, the one which is not found
106 Repub|            the virtues found in the State, wisdom comes into view,
107 Repub|    peculiarity. ~What is that? ~The State which we have been describing
108 Repub|             kinds of knowledge in a State are many and diverse? ~Of
109 Repub|             in our recently founded State among any of the citizens
110 Repub|             particular thing in the State, but about the whole, and
111 Repub|          whole, and considers how a State can best deal with itself
112 Repub|           part of itself, the whole State, being thus constituted
113 Repub|             nature and place in the State of one of the four virtues
114 Repub|           name of courageous to the State. ~How do you mean? ~Why,
115 Repub|              everyone who calls any State courageous or cowardly,
116 Repub|          and goes out to war on the State's behalf. ~No one, he replied,
117 Repub|           look at our newly created State, and there you will find
118 Repub|        conditions realized; for the State, as you will acknowledge,
119 Repub|       perceive, have a place in our State; and the meaner desires
120 Repub|           Yes. ~And if there be any State in which rulers and subjects
121 Repub|              that again will be our State? ~Undoubtedly. ~And the
122 Repub|            only, the one making the State wise and the other valiant;
123 Repub|         have been discovered in our State. The last of those qualities
124 Repub|        those qualities which make a State virtuous must be justice,
125 Repub|            at the foundation of the State, that one man should practise
126 Repub|         virtue which remains in the State when the other virtues of
127 Repub|            to the excellence of the State, whether the agreement of
128 Repub|           of each individual in the State to do his own work appears
129 Repub|             Are not the rulers in a State those to whom you would
130 Repub|            harm would result to the State? ~Not much. ~But when the
131 Repub|          another is the ruin of the State. ~Most true. Seeing, then,
132 Repub|            the greatest harm to the State, and may be most justly
133 Repub|        individual as well as in the State, there will be no longer
134 Repub|          example appeared to be the State, and accordingly we constructed
135 Repub|       knowing well that in the good State justice would be found.
136 Repub|            we will come back to the State and have another trial of
137 Repub|         only, will be like the just State? ~He will. ~And a State
138 Repub|             State? ~He will. ~And a State was thought by us to be
139 Repub|            the three classes in the State severally did their own
140 Repub|         soul which are found in the State; and he may be rightly described
141 Repub|       habits which there are in the State; and that from the individual
142 Repub|       individual they pass into the State?-how else can they come
143 Repub|           struggle of factions in a State, his spirit is on the side
144 Repub|              he replied; and in our State, as we were saying, the
145 Repub|     concupiscent; or rather, as the State was composed of three classes,
146 Repub|       principles which exist in the State exist also in the individual,
147 Repub|             quality which makes the State wise? ~Certainly. ~Also
148 Repub|          constitutes courage in the State constitutes courage in the
149 Repub|       individual, and that both the State and the individual bear
150 Repub|           the same way in which the State is just? ~That follows of
151 Repub|             that the justice of the State consisted in each of the
152 Repub|           temperance whether in the State or individual. ~And surely,
153 Repub|           we found her to be in the State? ~There is no difference,
154 Repub|             not admit that the just State, or the man who is trained
155 Repub|            the principles of such a State, will be less likely than
156 Repub|           the just man and the just State, and the nature of justice
157 Repub|      disease is the production of a state of things at variance with
158 Repub|       injustice the production of a state of things at variance with
159 Repub|           are distinct forms of the State. ~How many? ~There are five
160 Repub|               There are five of the State, and five of the soul, I
161 Repub|             fundamental laws of the State will be maintained. ~That
162 Repub|           the good and true City or State, and the good and true man
163 Repub|            only the ordering of the State, but also the regulation
164 Repub|          paramount influence on the State for good or for evil. And
165 Repub|          are taking in hand another State, we have resolved, as you
166 Repub|           are you raising about the State! Just as I thought that
167 Repub|             first foundation of the State, admitted the principle
168 Repub|             when we constructed the State, that the opposition of
169 Repub|           the administration of the State. ~By all means. ~Let us
170 Repub|      faculty of administration in a State which a woman has because
171 Repub|            for the interests of the State than that the men and women
172 Repub|         that the men and women of a State should be as good as possible? ~
173 Repub|            degree beneficial to the State? ~True. ~Then let the wives
174 Repub|             greatest benefit to the State and to the guardians. First
175 Repub|             possible to prevent the State from becoming either too
176 Repub|             to bear children to the State, and continue to bear them
177 Repub|         raising up a bastard to the State, uncertified and unconsecrated. ~
178 Repub|          which the guardians of our State are to have their wives
179 Repub|          but only private feeling a State is disorganized-when you
180 Repub|           not that the best-ordered State in which the greatest number
181 Repub|             that in the bestordered State there is the nearest approach
182 Repub|             good or evil, the whole State will make his case their
183 Repub|            happen in a well-ordered State. ~It will now be time, I
184 Repub|             for us to return to our State and see whether this or
185 Repub|        principles. ~Very good. ~Our State, like every other, has rulers
186 Repub|            them rulers. ~And in our State what other name besides
187 Repub|             an example in any other State of a ruler who would speak
188 Repub|         general constitution of the State, will be that the guardians
189 Repub|        comparison of a well-ordered State to the relation of the body
190 Repub|            the greatest good to the State? ~Certainly. ~And this agrees
191 Repub|          the salvation of the whole State; and the crown with which
192 Repub|         that we were fashioning the State with a view to the greatest
193 Repub|            to appropriate the whole State to himself, then he will
194 Repub|           as their parents, and the State will never recover. ~True,
195 Repub|            that Hellas is then in a state of disorder and discord,
196 Repub|            all sorts of good to the State. I will add, what you have
197 Repub|            you please, if only this State of yours were to come into
198 Repub|           then the existence of the State, let us now turn to the
199 Repub|            that which I have now to state and investigate. ~The more
200 Repub|            shall tell us how such a State is possible: speak out and
201 Repub|      creating an ideal of a perfect State? ~To be sure. ~And is our
202 Repub|             proving that the actual State will in every respect coincide
203 Repub|          change which will enable a State to pass into the truer form;
204 Repub|            might be a reform of the State if only one change were
205 Repub|             then only will this our State have a possibility of life
206 Repub|          convinced that in no other State can there be happiness private
207 Repub|     philosophers are to rule in the State; then we shall be able to
208 Repub|            and to be leaders in the State; and others who are not
209 Repub|         should be the rulers of our State? ~And how can we rightly
210 Repub|             should be rulers in the State. ~What do you mean? ~Let
211 Repub|           only you will intrust the State. ~Here Adeimantus interposed
212 Repub|           in vessels which are in a state of mutiny and by sailors
213 Repub|  philosopher in his relation to the State; for you understand already. ~
214 Repub|           that, in the present evil state of governments, whatever
215 Repub|       service which he has done the State, making them his judges
216 Repub|             Now, when he is in this state of mind, if someone gently
217 Repub|           would be of no use to the State or to his friends, and reflecting
218 Repub|          greatest, unless he find a State suitable to him; for in
219 Repub|           suitable to him; for in a State which is suitable to him,
220 Repub|        philosophy ever finds in the State that perfection which she
221 Repub|             going to ask, What that State is: ~No, he said; there
222 Repub|          question-whether it is the State of which we are the founders
223 Repub|           always be required in the State having the same idea of
224 Repub|           not to be the ruin of the State: All great attempts are
225 Repub|           like discourse in another state of existence. ~You are speaking
226 Repub|            not, to take care of the State, and until a like necessity
227 Repub|            necessity be laid on the State to obey them; or until kings,
228 Repub|           to have the charge of the State, we are ready to assert
229 Repub|           when we tell them that no State can be happy which is not
230 Repub|            will begin by taking the State and the manners of men,
231 Repub|           either with individual or State, and will inscribe no laws,
232 Repub|          his hands we committed the State; and are they growing a
233 Repub|             will this our imaginary State ever be realized? ~I think
234 Repub|             I knew that the perfect State would be eyed with jealousy
235 Repub|         they are always in a torpid state, and are apt to yawn and
236 Repub|          fault in a guardian of the State and of the laws. ~True. ~
237 Repub|           ought the best men in our State, to whom everything is intrusted,
238 Repub|             has this knowledge, our State will be perfectly ordered? ~
239 Repub|    realities of which in his former state he had seen the shadows;
240 Repub|          contemplations to the evil state of man, misbehaving himself
241 Repub|          happy in his condition and state of being, and he will pity
242 Repub|            be able ministers of the State; not the former, because
243 Repub|             are the founders of the State will be to compel the best
244 Repub|         making any one class in the State happy above the rest; the
245 Repub|    happiness was to be in the whole State, and he held the citizens
246 Repub|             them benefactors of the State, and therefore benefactors
247 Repub|       instruments in binding up the State. ~True, he said, I had forgotten. ~
248 Repub|           their truth. And thus our State, which is also yours, will
249 Repub|       Whereas the truth is that the State in which the rulers are
250 Repub|           quietly governed, and the State in which they are most eager,
251 Repub|          their turn at the toils of State, when they are allowed to
252 Repub|            of our present rulers of State. ~Yes, my friend, I said;
253 Repub|             may have a well-ordered State; for only in the State which
254 Repub| well-ordered State; for only in the State which offers this, will
255 Repub|         themselves and of the whole State. ~Most true, he replied. ~
256 Repub|             wisest about affairs of State, and by whom the State is
257 Repub|           of State, and by whom the State is best administered, and
258 Repub|            conceive the two as in a state of division, for if they
259 Repub|            the principal men of our State to go and learn arithmetic,
260 Repub|           be otherwise if the whole State became the director of these
261 Repub|            they had the help of the State, they would some day emerge
262 Repub|             my hurry; the ludicrous state of solid geometry, which,
263 Repub|      existence if encouraged by the State, let us go on to astronomy,
264 Repub|          the children of your ideal State, whom you are nurturing
265 Repub|          unconsciously err; and the State makes a ruler, and the individual
266 Repub|             constitution and of the State; but, if our pupils are
267 Repub|          Now, when a man is in this state, and the questioning spirit
268 Repub|         which they are to order the State and the lives of individuals,
269 Repub|        place to be governors of the State, then they will depart to
270 Repub|             has been said about the State and the government is not
271 Repub|     philosopher-kings are born in a State, one or more of them, despising
272 Repub|           them: and in this way the State and constitution of which
273 Repub|        Enough, then, of the perfect State, and of the man who bears
274 Repub|      conclusion that in the perfect State wives and children are to
275 Repub|         themselves and of the whole State. ~True, I said; and now
276 Repub|     finished the description of the State: you said that such a State
277 Repub|         State: you said that such a State was good, and that the man
278 Repub|            things to relate both of State and man. And you said further,
279 Repub|             and worst disorder of a State. I do not know, do you?
280 Repub|            clearness, of taking the State first and then proceeding
281 Repub|         hence the young men of your State will be less cultivated.
282 Repub|           proceed? Clearly, the new State, being in a mean between
283 Repub|           oligarchy and the perfect State, will partly follow one
284 Repub|             all these respects this State will resemble the former. ~
285 Repub|            of everlasting wars-this State will be for the most part
286 Repub|          such the character of this State, which has been described
287 Repub|            is like the timocratical State. ~Exactly. ~His origin is
288 Repub|            set over against another State;" ~or rather, as our plan
289 Repub|            requires, begin with the State. ~By all means. ~I believe
290 Repub|         rich men are honored in the State, virtue and the virtuous
291 Repub|         inevitable division: such a State is not one, but two States,
292 Repub|           of all, and to which this State first begins to be liable. ~
293 Repub|           also first begins in this State. ~The evil is certainly
294 Repub|             a whit more good to the State for the purposes of citizenship?
295 Repub|       whenever you see paupers in a State, somewhere in that neighborhood
296 Repub|            evil constitution of the State? ~True. ~Such, then, is
297 Repub|      individual who answers to this State. ~By all means. ~Does not
298 Repub|       sudden foundering against the State as upon a sunken reef, and
299 Repub|            whom he came is like the State out of which oligarchy came. ~
300 Repub|             not a true image of the State which he represents? ~He
301 Repub|            by him as well as by the State. ~You see that he is not
302 Repub|             ignoble competitor in a State for any prize of victory,
303 Repub|         answers to the oligarchical State? ~There can be no doubt. ~
304 Repub|            the good at which such a State aims is to become as rich
305 Repub|             in citizens of the same State to any considerable extent;
306 Repub|             pauper to abound in the State. ~Yes, he said, there are
307 Repub|             greatly lessened in the State. ~Yes, they will be greatly
308 Repub|           indifferent. ~Such is the state of affairs which prevails
309 Repub|            there is weakness in the State there is also likely to
310 Repub|   democratical allies, and then the State falls sick, and is at war
311 Repub|      Clearly. ~Then in this kind of State there will be the greatest
312 Repub|           are many men to whom this State, which is spangled with
313 Repub|           has a mind to establish a State, as we have been doing,
314 Repub|            choice, he may found his State. ~He will be sure to have
315 Repub|           for you to govern in this State, even if you have the capacity,
316 Repub|     consider, as in the case of the State, how he comes into being. ~
317 Repub|             many; he answers to the State which we described as fair
318 Repub|           beautiful of all, man and State alike, tyranny and the tyrant;
319 Repub|          and public. Now, in such a State, can liberty have any limit? ~
320 Repub|      several lesser ones: In such a state of society the master fears
321 Repub|         democracy than in any other State: for, truly, the she-dogs,
322 Repub|       physician and lawgiver of the State ought, like the wise bee-master,
323 Repub|            were in the oligarchical State. ~That is true. ~And in
324 Repub|         Because in the oligarchical State they are disqualified and
325 Repub|       standing up in the chariot of State with the reins in his hand,
326 Repub|            the man, and also of the State in which a creature like
327 Repub|             made a purgation of the State. ~Yes, he said, and a rare
328 Repub|           not receive them into our State, because they are the eulogists
329 Repub|             on, as a tyrant leads a State, to the performance of any
330 Repub|           only a few of them in the State, and the rest of the people
331 Repub|           which they inflict upon a State, do not come within a thousand
332 Repub|          man be like the tyrannical State, and the democratical man
333 Repub|           man like the democratical State; and the same of the others? ~
334 Repub|         others? ~Certainly. ~And as State is to State in virtue and
335 Repub|      Certainly. ~And as State is to State in virtue and happiness,
336 Repub|           of the individual and the State; bearing this in mind, and
337 Repub|          asked. ~Beginning with the State, I replied, would you say
338 Repub|           well as masters in such a State? ~Yes, he said, I see that
339 Repub|         Then if the man is like the State, I said, must not the same
340 Repub|             in my opinion. ~And the State which is enslaved under
341 Repub|          True. ~And must not such a State and such a man be always
342 Repub|          Yes, indeed. ~Is there any State in which you will find more
343 Repub|             you held the tyrannical State to be the most miserable
344 Repub|           distractions, even as the State which he resembles: and
345 Repub|          the greatest tyrant of his State? ~Make the proclamation
346 Repub|           individual soul, like the State, has been divided by us
347 Repub|              And there is a neutral state which is neither pleasure
348 Repub|             nor pain? ~There is. ~A state which is intermediate, and
349 Repub|               Then the intermediate state of rest will be pleasure
350 Repub|           pain and the intermediate state; so that when they are only
351 Repub|             neutral or intermediate state, they firmly believe that
352 Repub|            inanitions of the bodily state? ~Yes. ~And ignorance and
353 Repub|            to the constitution of a State, and by cultivation of this
354 Repub|        perceive in the order of our State, there is none which upon
355 Repub|           public life, tell us what State was ever better governed
356 Repub|          your own house or your own State until you appoint us to
357 Repub|       artist will be in a brilliant state of intelligence about his
358 Repub|               By all means. ~We may state the question thus: Imitation
359 Repub|             him into a well-ordered State, because he awakens and
360 Repub|             to be admitted into our State. For if you go beyond this
361 Repub|           will be the rulers in our State. ~That is most true, he
362 Repub|             sending away out of our State an art having the tendencies
363 Repub|             exist in a well-ordered State we shall be delighted to
364 Repub|             should like to hear you state this argument of which you
365 Repub|       opinion that even if the true state of the case could not possibly
366 Repub|          were taken up already in a state of corruption, his body
367 Repub|          supreme peril of our human state; and therefore the utmost
368 Repub|             dwelt in a well-ordered State, but his virtue was a matter