Dialogue

  1 Repub|            is something in what they say; not, however, so much as
  2 Repub|         blessing of riches, I do not say to every man, but to a good
  3 Repub|         contributes; and therefore I say, that, setting one thing
  4 Repub|            back to him? No one would say that I ought or that I should
  5 Repub|             any more than they would say that I ought always to speak
  6 Repub|         argument, what did Simonides say, and according to you, truly
  7 Repub|              according to you, truly say, about justice? ~He said
  8 Repub|             you would imagine him to say? ~Yes. ~And are enemies
  9 Repub|             proper to him-that is to say, evil. ~Simonides, then,
 10 Repub|               for he really meant to say that justice is the giving
 11 Repub|               Precisely. ~That is to say, justice is useful when
 12 Repub|           not to use them, you would say that justice is useful;
 13 Repub|              not now know what I did say; but I still stand by the
 14 Repub|         corrected? ~We should rather say that he is a friend who
 15 Repub|           enemies, we should further say: It is just to do good to
 16 Repub|             Deteriorated, that is to say, in the good qualities of
 17 Repub|                I think that what you say is quite true, Socrates. ~
 18 Repub|            he owes to his enemies-to say this is not wise; for it
 19 Repub|              power, was the first to say that justice is "doing good
 20 Repub|              under to one another? I say that if you want really
 21 Repub|              now I will not have you say that justice is duty or
 22 Repub|          many pieces of gold, do you say that we are weakly yielding
 23 Repub|            question, am I falsely to say some other number which
 24 Repub|            is asked, ought he not to say what he thinks, whether
 25 Repub|         interdicted answers? ~I dare say that I may, notwithstanding
 26 Repub|             replied. Justice, as you say, is the interest of the
 27 Repub|             this? You cannot mean to say that because Polydamas,
 28 Repub|           that is what I mean when I say that in all States there
 29 Repub|          some sort, but you go on to say "of the stronger"; about
 30 Repub|           own injury. For if, as you say, justice is the obedience
 31 Repub|             of the mistake? True, we say that the physician or arithmetician
 32 Repub|         lover of accuracy, we should say that the ruler, in so far
 33 Repub|             And the pilot-that is to say, the true pilot-is he a
 34 Repub|         hearing-has art in itself, I say, any similar liability to
 35 Repub|            remaining true-that is to say, while perfect and unimpaired.
 36 Repub|           the sheep. ~What makes you say that? I replied. ~Because
 37 Repub|           another's good; that is to say, the interest of the ruler
 38 Repub|            most miserable-that is to say tyranny, which by fraud
 39 Repub|            from not knowing what you say you know, is to you a matter
 40 Repub|         rulers in States, that is to say, the true rulers, like being
 41 Repub|          dear illustrious friend, do say what you think, that we
 42 Repub|             would not be inclined to say, would you? that navigation
 43 Repub|           receives pay you would not say that the art of payment
 44 Repub|           should not. ~Nor would you say that medicine is the art
 45 Repub|         beginning and answer me. You say that perfect injustice is
 46 Repub|        justice? ~Yes, that is what I say, and I have given you my
 47 Repub|             What else then would you say? ~The opposite, he replied. ~
 48 Repub|            vice? ~No, I would rather say sublime simplicity. ~Then
 49 Repub|       malignity? ~No; I would rather say discretion. ~And do the
 50 Repub|        foolish? ~Yes. ~And you would say the same sort of thing of
 51 Repub|          course. ~And what would you say of the physician? In prescribing
 52 Repub|       knowledge. Would he not rather say or do the same as his like
 53 Repub|             or the ignorant? ~I dare say. ~And the knowing is wise? ~
 54 Repub|          both? ~Yes. ~But did we not say, Thrasymachus, that the
 55 Repub|          either permit me to have my say out, or if you would rather
 56 Repub|          answer "Very good," as they say to story-telling old women,
 57 Repub|            person, would your wisdom say that she loses or that she
 58 Repub|              question: Would you not say that a horse has some end? ~
 59 Repub|          purpose? ~True. ~May we not say that this is the end of
 60 Repub|             cannot see? ~You mean to say, if they have lost their
 61 Repub|      Certainly, he replied. ~I might say the same of the ears; when
 62 Repub|              not a virtue, nor can I say whether the just man is
 63 Repub|             of the just-if what they say is true, Socrates, since
 64 Repub|        censuring injustice. Will you say whether you approve of my
 65 Repub|              he replied, to hear you say so, and shall begin by speaking,
 66 Repub|             origin of justice. ~They say that to do injustice is,
 67 Repub|            have been supposing, will say that they are right. If
 68 Repub|             you are not. Therefore I say that in the perfectly unjust
 69 Repub|            the just. ~I was going to say something in answer to Glaucon,
 70 Repub|           which the heavens, as they say, rain upon the pious; and
 71 Repub|               the posterity, as they say, of the faithful and just
 72 Repub|             by law and opinion. They say also that honesty is for
 73 Repub|            virtue and the gods: they say that the gods apportion
 74 Repub|              binding heaven, as they say, to execute their will.
 75 Repub|              Probably the youth will say to himself in the words
 76 Repub|              my days?" ~For what men say is that, if I am really
 77 Repub|             are the very persons who say that they may be influenced
 78 Repub|            greatest of evils. I dare say that Thrasymachus and others
 79 Repub|           add on the false, we shall say that you do not praise justice,
 80 Repub|             better. And therefore, I say, not only prove to us that
 81 Repub|        difficulty in knowing what to say. For I am in a strait between
 82 Repub|            of creation also. ~I dare say. ~When the State is completed
 83 Repub|             way; and when I hear you say this, I am myself reminded
 84 Repub|         found anywhere else. ~I dare say that you are right in your
 85 Repub|              am afraid that what you say is true, he replied. ~Here
 86 Repub|            mean? he said. ~I mean to say that there do exist natures
 87 Repub|             replied. ~And may we not say confidently of man also,
 88 Repub|            we must not permit him to say that these are the works
 89 Repub|              we are seeking: he must say that God did what was just
 90 Repub|            is not to be permitted to say; though he may say that
 91 Repub|      permitted to say; though he may say that the wicked are miserable
 92 Repub|            how certain gods, as they say, "Go about by night in the
 93 Repub|        phantom of himself? ~I cannot say, he replied. ~Do you not
 94 Repub|         mankind least like; -that, I say, is what they utterly detest. ~
 95 Repub|           our idea of God? ~I should say not. ~Or perhaps he may
 96 Repub|             who hears them. I do not say that these horrible stories
 97 Repub|             the gods, as to make him say - ~"O heavens! with my eyes
 98 Repub|             may arise in his mind to say and do the like. And instead
 99 Repub|             less of the gods, as you say, he replied. ~Then we shall
100 Repub|              which follow? Would you say that these, or any similar
101 Repub|            to make the wisest of men say that nothing in his opinion
102 Repub|             hunger"? ~What would you say again to the tale of Zeus,
103 Repub|            as I do, I hardly like to say that in attributing these
104 Repub|             true. ~And what shall we say about men? That is clearly
105 Repub|           mistaken, we shall have to say that about men; poets and
106 Repub|             command them to sing and say the opposite. ~To be sure
107 Repub|        person of another, may we not say that he assimilates his
108 Repub|             and that you may no more say, "I don't understand," I
109 Repub|        profess a care and of whom we say that they ought to be good
110 Repub|              when he has anything to say, and that another sort will
111 Repub|             out of Homer, that is to say, his style will be both
112 Repub|      expression in words? No one can say anything except in one or
113 Repub|             already what we ought to say about them, if we are to
114 Repub|           for I cannot at the moment say what they should be; though
115 Repub|              of temperance; these, I say, leave. ~And these, he replied,
116 Repub|      Certainly not. ~But what do you say to flute-makers and flute-players?
117 Repub|              the foot and melody. To say what these rhythms are will
118 Repub|            imitations I am unable to say. ~Then, I said, we must
119 Repub|           know? ~Rather so, I should say. ~But there is no difficulty
120 Repub|             be possible. What do you say? ~Yes, I agree. ~Then, to
121 Repub|              But next, what shall we say of their food; for the men
122 Repub|              disgraceful. ~Would you say "most," I replied, when
123 Repub|          otherwise; of him we do not say that he has any specially
124 Repub|     Asclepius was the son of Apollo, say also that he was bribed
125 Repub| philosophical, some god, as I should say, has given mankind two arts
126 Repub|            discovering them. ~I dare say that there will be no difficulty. ~
127 Repub|           other places (as the poets say, and have made the world
128 Repub|             half. Citizens, we shall say to them in our tale, you
129 Repub|             which reasons may we not say that thus shall our State
130 Repub|              he, if a person were to say that you are making these
131 Repub|            whole beautiful. And so I say to you, do not compel us
132 Repub|             but many cities, as they say in the game. For indeed
133 Repub|             States, I do not mean to say in reputation or appearance,
134 Repub|            of juries, what would you say? there may also arise questions
135 Repub|             help believing what they say? ~Nay, he said, certainly
136 Repub|            said, I see that what you say is true. ~Let me further
137 Repub|              do you mean? ~I mean to say that in reality for a long
138 Repub|          Very true. ~Think, now, and say whether you agree with me
139 Repub|             course; let us do as you say. ~I proceeded to ask: When
140 Repub|             one; whether, that is to say, we learn with one part
141 Repub|              and suppose a person to say that one and the same person
142 Repub|            object, and should rather say that one part of him is
143 Repub|            the same time (and he may say the same of anything which
144 Repub|         themselves; we should rather say that they have both an axis
145 Repub|            true. ~And what would you say of unwillingness and dislike
146 Repub|             simple desire is, as you say, in every case of the simple
147 Repub|              might have something to say. ~Nevertheless I should
148 Repub|          qualified. I do not mean to say that relatives may not be
149 Repub|            as you do. ~Would you not say that thirst is one of these
150 Repub|    Impossible. ~No more than you can say that the hands of the archer
151 Repub|              same time, but what you say is that one hand pushes
152 Repub|           such a case what is one to say? Would you not say that
153 Repub|            one to say? Would you not say that there was something
154 Repub|            which bids him? ~I should say so. ~And the forbidding
155 Repub|          deems to be just, and, as I say, his anger refuses to be
156 Repub|            desire, but now we should say quite the contrary; for
157 Repub|        Assuredly. ~And would you not say that he is temperate who
158 Repub|          Most certainly not. ~May we say so, then? ~Let us say so. ~
159 Repub|             we say so, then? ~Let us say so. ~And now, I said, injustice
160 Repub|              the question is, as you say, ridiculous. Still, as we
161 Repub|         kinds. Please, therefore, to say what sort of community you
162 Repub|            must retrace my steps and say what I perhaps ought to
163 Repub|             our opponents. They will say: "Socrates and Glaucon,
164 Repub|           contradiction! ~Why do you say so? ~Because I think that
165 Repub|            art or pursuit, we should say that such pursuit or art
166 Repub|                By all means. ~Let us say to him: Come now, and we
167 Repub|             respect, did you mean to say that one man will acquire
168 Repub|            yet on the whole what you say is true. ~And if so, my
169 Repub|               What is it? ~Would you say that all men are equal in
170 Repub|               and may we not further say that our guardians are the
171 Repub|            about women, which we may say that we have now escaped;
172 Repub|             the rulers; for we shall say that he is raising up a
173 Repub|            the part affected, and we say that the man has a pain
174 Repub|           remember. ~And what do you say, now that the life of our
175 Repub|              to consult me, I should say to him: Stay where you are,
176 Repub|               By all means, I should say. ~And he who allows himself
177 Repub|         shall crown him. What do you say? ~I approve. ~And what do
178 Repub|            approve. ~And what do you say to his receiving the right
179 Repub|          disposed to go further, and say: Let no one whom he has
180 Repub|       gloriously in war shall we not say, in the first place, that
181 Repub|            with one another we shall say that Hellas is then in a
182 Repub|              good. ~But still I must say, Socrates, that if you are
183 Repub|              into existence, we need say no more about them; assuming
184 Repub|            of the truth? What do you say? ~I agree. ~Then you must
185 Repub|            them whom we mean when we say that philosophers are to
186 Repub|       explanation. ~Proceed. ~I dare say that you remember, and therefore
187 Repub|        hook-nose of another has, you say, a royal look; while he
188 Repub|           nothing which you will not say, in order not to lose a
189 Repub|             assent. ~And what do you say of lovers of wine? Do you
190 Repub|           The whole. ~And may we not say of the philosopher that
191 Repub|          object? ~I should certainly say that such a one was dreaming. ~
192 Repub|          wide awake. ~And may we not say that the mind of the one
193 Repub|             us think of something to say to him. Shall we begin by
194 Repub|             more question? Would you say that knowledge is a faculty,
195 Repub|      beautiful is the manifold-he, I say, your lover of beautiful
196 Repub|             what he hit him, as they say in the puzzle, and upon
197 Repub|              are the same, as I dare say you will remember, who listened
198 Repub|            replied, is not the word; say rather, "must be affirmed:"
199 Repub|       boaster, or a coward-can he, I say, ever be unjust or hard
200 Repub|             for they have nothing to say in this new game of which
201 Repub|              For any one of us might say, that although in words
202 Repub|             strange monsters, not to say utter rogues, and that those
203 Repub|             you think that those who say so are wrong? ~I cannot
204 Repub|             extraordinary. ~I will. ~Say to him, that, in deeming
205 Repub|           you suppose the accuser to say that the greater number
206 Repub|           And have we not a right to say in his defence, that the
207 Repub|           Certainly. ~And may we not say, Adeimantus, that the most
208 Repub|            think, as people so often say, that our youth are corrupted
209 Repub|               Are not the public who say these things the greatest
210 Repub|           young man's heart, as they say, leap within him? Will any
211 Repub|              of God, as we may truly say. ~I quite assent, he replied. ~
212 Repub|                What are you going to say? ~Why, that all those mercenary
213 Repub|              of the many, that is to say, the opinions of their assemblies;
214 Repub|  companionship? Will they not do and say anything to prevent him
215 Repub|             reproaches which, as you say, her reprovers utter, who
216 Repub|             is certainly what people say. ~Yes; and what else would
217 Repub|      anything more which you wish to say? ~Nothing more on that subject,
218 Repub|            hard is the good," as men say. ~Still, he said, let the
219 Repub|         remark in what I am about to say how boldly and unhesitatingly
220 Repub|            said. ~But do you mean to say that this is not the opinion
221 Repub|          come into being will anyone say that they must of necessity
222 Repub|          best. ~We have. ~And now we say not only that our laws,
223 Repub|             or not, it is for you to say. ~Yes, he said, I thought
224 Repub|              you have often heard me say, we know so little; and,
225 Repub|           but the finer sort of wits say it is knowledge? ~Yes. ~
226 Repub|             are obliged after all to say knowledge of the good? ~
227 Repub|           True, Socrates; but I must say that one who like you has
228 Repub|            but has anyone a right to say positively what he does
229 Repub|         right to do that: but he may say what he thinks, as a matter
230 Repub|          Very true. ~The many, as we say, are seen but not known,
231 Repub|           other senses-you would not say that any of them requires
232 Repub|             gods in heaven would you say was the lord of this element?
233 Repub|               as you and all mankind say. ~May not the relation of
234 Repub|            you surely cannot mean to say that pleasure is the good? ~
235 Repub|            point of view? ~You would say, would you not? that the
236 Repub|           over the visible. I do not say heaven, lest you should
237 Repub|             as hypotheses-that is to say, as steps and points of
238 Repub|            rate, I understand you to say that knowledge and being,
239 Repub|     possessors of them? Would he not say with Homer, ~"Better to
240 Repub|             be ridiculous? Men would say of him that up he went and
241 Repub|              must be wrong when they say that they can put a knowledge
242 Repub|              eyes. ~They undoubtedly say this, he replied. ~Whereas,
243 Repub|          things that are below-if, I say, they had been released
244 Repub|       discover? No. ~But what do you say of music, what also entered
245 Repub|              he have been? ~I should say a very strange one, if this
246 Repub|              one, if this was as you say. ~Can we deny that a warrior
247 Repub|              indeed, I should rather say, if he is to be a man at
248 Repub|             the inquiry with me, and say "yes" or "no" when I attempt
249 Repub|         Explain, he said. ~I mean to say that objects of sense are
250 Repub|             suppose a person were to say to them: O my friends, what
251 Repub|          reasoning, in which, as you say, there is a unity such as
252 Repub|      astronomy the third-what do you say? ~I am strongly inclined
253 Repub|          argue. You will very likely say with neither, and that your
254 Repub|            And what, then, would you say? ~I should rather say that
255 Repub|            you say? ~I should rather say that those who elevate astronomy
256 Repub|             things above. And I dare say that if a person were to
257 Repub|         sciences-as the Pythagoreans say, and we, Glaucon, agree
258 Repub|            and therefore I will only say that these are not the men,
259 Repub|        attain to problems-that is to say, they never reach the natural
260 Repub|        describe that in like manner. Say, then, what is the nature
261 Repub|          reality I cannot venture to say; but you would have seen
262 Repub|              deny it? ~And you would say the same of the conception
263 Repub|           can do all this, you would say that he knows neither the
264 Repub|         herself will have nothing to say against us, and we shall
265 Repub|           you please. ~Then I should say that while he is ignorant
266 Repub|            when in need, or to do or say anything against them; and
267 Repub|           that be enough? ~Would you say six or four years? he asked. ~
268 Repub|            or four years? he asked. ~Say five years, I replied; at
269 Repub|            been supposed; that is to say, when the true philosopher-kings
270 Repub|           replied, we must do as you say. ~Shall we follow our old
271 Repub|                And what do the muses say next? ~When discord arose,
272 Repub|          just a spendthrift? ~As you say, he seemed to be a ruler,
273 Repub|             spendthrift. ~May we not say that this is the drone in
274 Repub|              and frankness-a man may say and do what he likes? ~'
275 Repub|               Very true. ~May we not say that these desires spend,
276 Repub|                Quite true, he said. ~Say then, my friend, in what
277 Repub|            people's friend," as they say, "be lost to them." ~Exactly. ~
278 Repub|              and he clearly meant to say that they are the wise whom
279 Repub|        father's estate. ~You mean to say that the people, from whom
280 Repub|              Why, you do not mean to say that the tyrant will use
281 Repub|               and may we not rightly say that we have sufficiently
282 Repub|             quarrel against anyone-I say, when, after pacifying the
283 Repub|       Suppose, as people facetiously say, you were to tell me. ~I
284 Repub|           motherland, as the Cretans say, in subjection to his young
285 Repub|          State, I replied, would you say that a city which is governed
286 Repub|           Inevitably. ~And would you say that the soul of such a
287 Repub|          tyrannical man, what do you say of him? ~I say that he is
288 Repub|           what do you say of him? ~I say that he is by far the most
289 Repub|             these owners, the master say of some fifty slaves, together
290 Repub|              he said. ~If we were to say that the loves and pleasures
291 Repub|           tasted-or, I should rather say, even had he desired, could
292 Repub|             my questions. ~Proceed. ~Say, then, is not pleasure opposed
293 Repub|             You remember what people say when they are sick? ~What
294 Repub|              are sick? ~What do they say? ~That after all nothing
295 Repub|             you must have heard them say that there is nothing pleasanter
296 Repub|       neither become both? ~I should say not. ~And both pleasure
297 Repub|            not a reality; that is to say, the rest is pleasure at
298 Repub|              white-can you wonder, I say, at this? ~No, indeed; I
299 Repub|             with him. ~What shall we say to him? ~Let us make an
300 Repub|              I have made them as you say. ~And now join them, and
301 Repub|           maintainer of justice will say. ~And so from every point
302 Repub|          error. "Sweet sir," we will say to him, "what think you
303 Repub|            received? And will anyone say that he is not a miserable
304 Repub|            like that of the best, we say that he ought to be the
305 Repub|            and on what ground can we say that a man is profited by
306 Repub|          like to know what you would say of him. ~Who is he? ~One
307 Repub|              then I suppose you will say that what he creates is
308 Repub|     existence; and if anyone were to say that the work of the maker
309 Repub|          replied, philosophers would say that he was not speaking
310 Repub|           things. ~And what shall we say of the carpenter-is not
311 Repub|             higher in him? ~I should say not. ~The real artist, who
312 Repub|               Friend Homer," then we say to him, "if you are only
313 Repub|        remove from truth in what you say of virtue, and not in the
314 Repub|            what city has anything to say about you?" Is there any
315 Repub|          imitator-can you imagine, I say, that he would not have
316 Repub|          Proceed. ~Of the painter we say that he will paint reins,
317 Repub|           Most true. ~And may we not say the same of all things? ~
318 Repub|     compelled to hear what he has to say, whereas the user will have
319 Repub|          have no sorrow, or shall we say that although he cannot
320 Repub|             you mean? ~The law would say that to be patient under
321 Repub|           degree of truth-in this, I say, he is like him; and he
322 Repub|            if the effect is what you say. ~Hear and judge: The best
323 Repub|             love and honor those who say these things-they are excellent
324 Repub|             betray the truth. I dare say, Glaucon, that you are as
325 Repub|           comparison with eternity? ~Say rather 'nothing' he replied. ~
326 Repub|             the body, then we should say that the body has been destroyed
327 Repub|              unrefuted, let us never say that fever, or any other
328 Repub|            fortunate unjust. I shall say of them, what you were saying
329 Repub|             said of the others I now say of these. And, on the other
330 Repub|          other hand, of the unjust I say that the greater number,
331 Repub|         Certainly, he said, what you say is true. ~These, then, are
332 Repub|             to the body he could not say; only, in the morning, awaking