Dialogue

  1 Repub|          the repayment of a debt is just, and in saying so he appears
  2 Repub|           does not mean, as we were just now saying, that I ought
  3 Repub|          view to what result is the just man most able to do harm
  4 Repub| partnerships? ~Exactly. ~But is the just man or the skilful player
  5 Repub|            bricks and stones is the just man a more useful or better
  6 Repub|          sort of partnership is the just man a better partner than
  7 Repub|             better partner than the just man? ~In a money partnership. ~
  8 Repub|        money; for you do not want a just man to be your counsellor
  9 Repub|         silver or gold in which the just man is to be preferred? ~
 10 Repub|           be inferred. ~Then if the just man is good at keeping money,
 11 Repub|      argument. ~Then after all, the just man has turned out to be
 12 Repub|          Clearly. ~But the good are just and would not do an injustice? ~
 13 Repub|    according to your argument it is just to injure those who do no
 14 Repub|             ought to do good to the just and harm to the unjust? ~
 15 Repub|            did at first, that it is just to do good to our friends
 16 Repub|           should further say: It is just to do good to our friends
 17 Repub|           the truth. ~But ought the just to injure anyone at all? ~
 18 Repub|            Impossible. ~And can the just by justice make men unjust,
 19 Repub|       anyone? ~Impossible. ~And the just is the good? ~Certainly. ~
 20 Repub|            else is not the act of a just man, but of the opposite,
 21 Repub|            good is the debt which a just man owes to his friends,
 22 Repub|           another can be in no case just. ~I agree with you, said
 23 Repub|          How would you answer him? ~Just as if the two cases were
 24 Repub|             and says that he knows, just nothing; and who, even if
 25 Repub|           than he is, and right and just for us? ~That's abominable
 26 Repub|             Do you admit that it is just for subjects to obey their
 27 Repub|        commanded by their rulers is just. ~Yes, Cleitophon, but he
 28 Repub|           being the superior, it is just that the inferior should
 29 Repub|             in your ideas about the just and unjust as not even to
 30 Repub|           know that justice and the just are in reality another's
 31 Repub|           over the truly simple and just: he is the stronger, and
 32 Repub|          foolish Socrates, that the just is always a loser in comparison
 33 Repub|        unjust is the partner of the just you will find that, when
 34 Repub|             has always more and the just less. Secondly, in their
 35 Repub|         there is an income-tax, the just man will pay more and the
 36 Repub|             an office; there is the just man neglecting his affairs
 37 Repub|           the public, because he is just; moreover he is hated by
 38 Repub|            convinced by what I have just said; what more can I do
 39 Repub|          that was what I was saying just now about the ruler. I conceived
 40 Repub|         Thrasymachus, why, as I was just now saying, no one is willing
 41 Repub|       advantageous than that of the just, his new statement appears
 42 Repub|           part deem the life of the just to be the more advantageous,
 43 Repub|             the advantages of being just, and he answers and we rejoin,
 44 Repub|           with those of which I was just now speaking. ~I do not
 45 Repub|      attributed by us before to the just, seeing that you do not
 46 Repub|             more question? Does the just man try to gain any advantage
 47 Repub|         gain any advantage over the just? ~Far otherwise; if he did
 48 Repub|           would he try to go beyond just action? ~He would not. ~
 49 Repub|             be considered by him as just or unjust? ~He would think
 50 Repub|          unjust? ~He would think it just, and would try to gain the
 51 Repub|        question is only whether the just man, while refusing to have
 52 Repub|           to have more than another just man, would wish and claim
 53 Repub|         claim to have more than the just man and to do more than
 54 Repub|          man and to do more than is just? ~Of course, he said, for
 55 Repub|             to obtain more than the just man or action, in order
 56 Repub|             matter thus, I said-the just does not desire more than
 57 Repub|           is good and wise, and the just is neither? ~Good again,
 58 Repub|          the wise and good, and the just unlike them? ~Of course,
 59 Repub|          And you also said that the just will not go beyond his like,
 60 Repub|             unlike? ~Yes. ~Then the just is like the wise and good,
 61 Repub|             was admitted. ~Then the just has turned out to be wise
 62 Repub|           to one another and to the just? ~They will. ~And suppose
 63 Repub|            opposes it, and with the just? Is not this the case? ~
 64 Repub|            enemy to himself and the just? Is not that true, Thrasymachus? ~
 65 Repub|           said, surely the gods are just? ~Granted that they are.
 66 Repub|          enemy of the gods, and the just will be their friends? ~
 67 Repub|         have already shown that the just are clearly wiser and better
 68 Repub|           at first. But whether the just have a better and happier
 69 Repub|            been admitted. ~Then the just soul and the just man will
 70 Repub|          Then the just soul and the just man will live well, and
 71 Repub|        happy? ~Certainly. ~Then the just is happy, and the unjust
 72 Repub|           nor can I say whether the just man is happy or unhappy. ~
 73 Repub|            persuaded us, that to be just is always better than to
 74 Repub|        Thrasymachus was maintaining just now, when he censured justice
 75 Repub|           termed by them lawful and just. This they affirm to be
 76 Repub|            having given both to the just and the unjust power to
 77 Repub|        discover in the very act the just and unjust man to be proceeding
 78 Repub|           such magic rings, and the just put on one of them and the
 79 Repub|             Then the actions of the just would be as the actions
 80 Repub|           great proof that a man is just, not willingly or because
 81 Repub|         judgment of the life of the just and unjust, we must isolate
 82 Repub|            entirely unjust, and the just man entirely just; nothing
 83 Repub|           and the just man entirely just; nothing is to be taken
 84 Repub|          injustice is, to be deemed just when you are not. Therefore
 85 Repub|           his side let us place the just man in his nobleness and
 86 Repub|       seeming, for if he seem to be just he will be honored and rewarded,
 87 Repub|        shall not know whether he is just for the sake of justice
 88 Repub|            the hour of death; being just and seeming to be unjust.
 89 Repub|         They will tell you that the just man who is thought unjust
 90 Repub|           seem only, and not to be, just; the words of AEschylus
 91 Repub|           of the unjust than of the just. For the unjust is pursuing
 92 Repub|          first place, he is thought just, and therefore bears rule
 93 Repub|           far better style than the just, and therefore he is likely
 94 Repub|         better than the life of the just. ~I was going to say something
 95 Repub|           wards that they are to be just; but why? not for the sake
 96 Repub|    obtaining for him who is reputed just some of those offices, marriages,
 97 Repub|           gods make the oaks of the just - ~"To bear acorns at their
 98 Repub|            his son vouchsafe to the just; they take them down into
 99 Repub|            say, of the faithful and just shall survive to the third
100 Repub|     described as the portion of the just who are reputed to be unjust;
101 Repub|           to harm an enemy, whether just or unjust, at a small cost;
102 Repub|             is that, if I am really just and am not also thought
103 Repub|             and am not also thought just, profit there is none, but
104 Repub|            injustice; for if we are just, although we may escape
105 Repub|         also knows that men are not just of their own free will;
106 Repub|           Quite true. ~And shall we just carelessly allow children
107 Repub|           say that God did what was just and right, and they were
108 Repub|             to them. ~And, as I was just now remarking, this ignorance
109 Repub|         mythology, of which we were just now speaking-because we
110 Repub|             be, as the argument has just proved to us; and by that
111 Repub|    possessor, whether he seem to be just or not. ~Most true, he said. ~
112 Repub|      tragedy and comedy-did you not just now call them imitations? ~
113 Repub|             reverse of what we have just been prescribing, who scold
114 Repub|         Suppose, I answered, that a just and good man in the course
115 Repub|             large company. As I was just now saying, he will attempt
116 Repub|            harmonies of which I was just now speaking. ~Then, I said,
117 Repub|        metrical systems are framed, just as in sounds there are four
118 Repub|             not the words by them. ~Just so, he said, they should
119 Repub|         grounds which you mention. ~Just as in learning to read,
120 Repub|          simple music which we were just now describing. ~How so? ~
121 Repub|        occasion of an epidemic, but just because, by indolence and
122 Repub|    melancholy airs of which we were just now speaking, and his whole
123 Repub|       enchant. ~Therefore, as I was just now saying, we must inquire
124 Repub|            a husbandman or artisan, just as there may be sons of
125 Repub|           prepare their dwellings. ~Just so, he said. ~And their
126 Repub|        moreover, as you were saying just now, they have gold and
127 Repub|             like the men whom I was just now describing. For are
128 Repub|               Yes, he said; that is just what they are doing. ~I
129 Repub|           valiant and temperate and just. ~That is likewise clear. ~
130 Repub|            among those whom we were just now describing as perfect
131 Repub|        rather as a follower who has just eyes enough to see what
132 Repub|        their principle. ~Which is a just principle? ~Yes. ~Then on
133 Repub|              and will make the city just. ~I agree with you. ~We
134 Repub|              Like, he replied. ~The just man then, if we regard the
135 Repub|      justice only, will be like the just State? ~He will. ~And a
136 Repub|             was thought by us to be just when the three classes in
137 Repub|            him-these he deems to be just, and, as I say, his anger
138 Repub|            acknowledged by us to be just in the same way in which
139 Repub|           way in which the State is just? ~That follows of course. ~
140 Repub|           do their own work will be just, and will do his own work? ~
141 Repub|          what quality a man will be just. ~That is very certain. ~
142 Repub|          must we not admit that the just State, or the man who is
143 Repub|          one, he replied. ~Will the just man or citizen ever be guilty
144 Repub|         concernment of man: for the just man does not permit the
145 Repub|           this harmonious condition just and good action, and the
146 Repub|          that we had discovered the just man and the just State,
147 Repub|     discovered the just man and the just State, and the nature of
148 Repub|           health; being in the soul just what disease and health
149 Repub|          causes disease. ~Yes. ~And just actions cause justice, and
150 Repub|          the more profitable, to be just and act justly and practise
151 Repub|           sitting a little way off, just beyond Adeimantus, began
152 Repub|            raising about the State! Just as I thought that I had
153 Repub|         tell you that you are doing just the reverse; the encouragement
154 Repub|             he is really disputing, just because he cannot define
155 Repub|           correctors, not enemies? ~Just so. ~And as they are Hellenes
156 Repub|             are to require that the just man should in nothing fail
157 Repub|          character of the perfectly just, and into injustice and
158 Repub|            or a lover of knowledge, just as he who refuses his food
159 Repub|           one? ~True again. ~And of just and unjust, good and evil,
160 Repub|           beautiful is one, and the just is one, or that anything
161 Repub|            be found ugly; or of the just, which will not be found
162 Repub|           thither; who see the many just, and not absolute justice,
163 Repub|             respect the life of the just differs from that of the
164 Repub|            observe whether a man is just and gentle, or rude and
165 Repub|       Nothing, he said, can be more just than such a description
166 Repub|   dishonorable, or good or evil, or just or unjust, all in accordance
167 Repub|             of them except that the just and noble are the necessary,
168 Repub|          bald little tinker who has just got out of durance and come
169 Repub|          ought to be their course? ~Just the opposite. In childhood
170 Repub|            and describe as you were just now doing their character
171 Repub|            calmer at what they have just heard? ~Much calmer, if
172 Repub|            of all which, as we were just now saying, is his proper
173 Repub|           be knowledge of the good, just as if we understood them
174 Repub|            or to seem to be what is just and honorable without the
175 Repub|           how the beautiful and the just are likewise good will be
176 Repub|           Glaucon, not to turn away just as you are reaching the
177 Repub|           to have no intelligence? ~Just so. ~Now, that which imparts
178 Repub|            That, he said, is a very just distinction. ~But then,
179 Repub|          the soul already; and that just as the eye was unable to
180 Repub|         have seen the beautiful and just and good in their truth.
181 Repub|           he answered; for they are just men, and the commands which
182 Repub|             we impose upon them are just; there can be no doubt that
183 Repub|           another consideration has just occurred to me: You will
184 Repub|         education, were there not? ~Just so. ~There was gymnastics,
185 Repub|         Pythagoreans, of whom I was just now proposing to inquire
186 Repub|          more than dishonorable, or just and good any more than the
187 Repub|       described, and also, as I was just now saying, most excusable. ~
188 Repub|            and whom we rightly call just and good, we have already
189 Repub|   tyrannical. Let us place the most just by the side of the most
190 Repub|              also castles which are just nests for their eggs, and
191 Repub|          type of the most perfectly just and most perfectly unjust;
192 Repub|         nature of the qualification Just think what would happen
193 Repub|      neither ruler nor subject, but just a spendthrift? ~As you say,
194 Repub|          the other is of the hive? ~Just so, Socrates. ~And God has
195 Repub|           every sort of flower. And just as women and children think
196 Repub|        sentenced to death or exile, just stay where they are and
197 Repub|          been brought up as we were just now describing, in a vulgar
198 Repub|      manners are contained in him. ~Just so. ~Let him then be set
199 Repub|          whether male or female, is just as free as his or her purchaser;
200 Repub|            them: and all things are just ready to burst with liberty. ~
201 Repub|           and is the ruin of both? ~Just so, he replied. ~Well, I
202 Repub|       others having stings. ~A very just comparison. ~These two classes
203 Repub|          and his companions depart, just as any other father might
204 Repub|            much nor too little, but just enough to lay them to sleep,
205 Repub|             those others which have just been emancipated, and are
206 Repub|     tyrannical man, I mean-whom you just now decided to be the most
207 Repub|           succession, then, has the just man overthrown the unjust
208 Repub|           that which is neither was just now shown to be rest and
209 Repub|     division, the several parts are just, and do each of them their
210 Repub|        distance which separates the just from the unjust in regard
211 Repub|         them. ~Then if the good and just man be thus superior in
212 Repub|        unjust who was reputed to be just? ~Yes, that was said. Now,
213 Repub|              and unprofitable to be just, let us reply that, if he
214 Repub|             things of which we were just now speaking, in the mirror. ~
215 Repub|             too, is, as I conceive, just such another-a creator of
216 Repub|           the light of the examples just offered we inquire who this
217 Repub|            the ignorant multitude? ~Just so. ~Thus far, then, we
218 Repub|             the evils which we were just now passing in review: unrighteousness,
219 Repub|             things of which we were just now speaking come to annihilation
220 Repub|        nature. Let a man do what is just, whether he have the ring
221 Repub|             The assumption that the just man should appear unjust
222 Repub|        appear unjust and the unjust just: for you were of opinion
223 Repub|             The demand, he said, is just. ~In the first place, I
224 Repub|         back-the nature both of the just and unjust is truly known
225 Repub|           must be our notion of the just man, that even when he is
226 Repub|           whose desire is to become just and to be like God, as far
227 Repub|             which the gods give the just? ~That is my conviction. ~
228 Repub|            this is the way with the just; he who endures to the end
229 Repub|           allow me to repeat of the just the blessings which you
230 Repub|         which are bestowed upon the just by gods and men in this
231 Repub|        recompenses which await both just and unjust after death.
232 Repub|            hear them, and then both just and unjust will have received
233 Repub|           seated, who commanded the just, after they had given judgment
234 Repub|          great criminals: they were just, as they fancied, about
235 Repub|             will make his soul more just; all else he will disregard.