Dialogue

  1 Intro|     dialectical errors. The Eleatic stranger, here, as in the Sophist,
  2 Intro|  acquaintance of Theaetetus and the Stranger.~THEODORUS: And you will
  3 Intro|             you, I must request the Stranger to finish the argument...~
  4 Intro|          finish the argument...~The Stranger suggests that Theaetetus
  5 Intro|           form (compare Soph.).~The Stranger begins the enquiry by making
  6 Intro|             any picture. ‘But what, Stranger, is the deficiency of which
  7 Intro|            them all.~‘Your picture, Stranger, of the king and statesman,
  8 Intro|             better than the Eleatic Stranger in the words—‘The higher
  9 Intro|            to find that the Eleatic Stranger discourses to us, not only
 10 Intro|            of them; and the Eleatic Stranger takes up a position similar
 11 Intro|             to that of the Athenian Stranger in the Laws.~VII. There
 12 State|    Theodorus, Socrates, The Eleatic Stranger, The Younger Socrates.~SOCRATES:
 13 State|            of Theaetetus and of the Stranger.~THEODORUS: And in a little
 14 State|              but I must now ask the Stranger, who will not, I hope, tire
 15 State|  Philosopher, whichever he prefers.~STRANGER: That is my duty, Theodorus;
 16 State|         THEODORUS: In what respect?~STRANGER: Shall we relieve him, and
 17 State|            rest.~SOCRATES: I think, Stranger, that both of them may be
 18 State|          to-day let him answer you.~STRANGER: Very good. Young Socrates,
 19 State|    proposing?~YOUNG SOCRATES: I do.~STRANGER: And do you agree to his
 20 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.~STRANGER: As you do not object, still
 21 State|       science.~YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.~STRANGER: Then the sciences must
 22 State|         YOUNG SOCRATES: I dare say.~STRANGER: But yet the division will
 23 State|           YOUNG SOCRATES: How then?~STRANGER: They will be divided at
 24 State|         point.~YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.~STRANGER: Where shall we discover
 25 State|          the path is your business, Stranger, and not mine.~STRANGER:
 26 State|             Stranger, and not mine.~STRANGER: Yes, Socrates, but the
 27 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Very good.~STRANGER: Well, and are not arithmetic
 28 State|       action?~YOUNG SOCRATES: True.~STRANGER: But in the art of carpentering
 29 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.~STRANGER: Then let us divide sciences
 30 State|        science, which is one whole.~STRANGER: And are ‘statesman,’ ‘king,’ ‘
 31 State|        YOUNG SOCRATES: Let me hear.~STRANGER: If any one who is in a
 32 State|     physician?~YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.~STRANGER: And if any one who is in
 33 State|         have?~YOUNG SOCRATES: True.~STRANGER: But surely the science
 34 State|       science?~YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.~STRANGER: And will not he who possesses
 35 State|           He certainly ought to be.~STRANGER: And the householder and
 36 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Of course.~STRANGER: Again, a large household
 37 State|            SOCRATES: They will not.~STRANGER: Then, returning to the
 38 State|            SOCRATES: Certainly not.~STRANGER: This too, is evident, that
 39 State|        YOUNG SOCRATES: Clearly not.~STRANGER: Then, shall we say that
 40 State|         SOCRATES: Certainly he has.~STRANGER: Then we may put all together
 41 State|            YOUNG SOCRATES: Clearly.~STRANGER: And now we shall only be
 42 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Very good.~STRANGER: Think whether you can find
 43 State|     SOCRATES: Tell me of what sort.~STRANGER: Such as this: You may remember
 44 State|   calculation?~YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.~STRANGER: Which was, unmistakeably,
 45 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.~STRANGER: And to this art of calculation
 46 State|             SOCRATES: How could we?~STRANGER: You know that the master-builder
 47 State|       workmen?~YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.~STRANGER: He contributes knowledge,
 48 State|       labour?~YOUNG SOCRATES: True.~STRANGER: And may therefore be justly
 49 State|         YOUNG SOCRATES: Quite true.~STRANGER: But he ought not, like
 50 State|         work.~YOUNG SOCRATES: True.~STRANGER: Are not all such sciences,
 51 State|          SOCRATES: That is evident.~STRANGER: May we not very properly
 52 State|        SOCRATES: I should think so.~STRANGER: And when men have anything
 53 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.~STRANGER: Then while we are at unity
 54 State|            SOCRATES: Certainly not.~STRANGER: And now, in which of these
 55 State|      SOCRATES: The latter, clearly.~STRANGER: Then we must see whether
 56 State|        YOUNG SOCRATES: How is this?~STRANGER: Why, does not the retailer
 57 State|        SOCRATES: Certainly he does.~STRANGER: And is not the herald under
 58 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.~STRANGER: Then shall we mingle the
 59 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Very good.~STRANGER: Thus a very fair distinction
 60 State|             SOCRATES: By all means.~STRANGER: I think that it does; and
 61 State|            SOCRATES: At what point?~STRANGER: May not all rulers be supposed
 62 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.~STRANGER: Nor is there any difficulty
 63 State|          How would you divide them?~STRANGER: Of the whole class, some
 64 State|         life.~YOUNG SOCRATES: True.~STRANGER: And by the help of this
 65 State|            SOCRATES: At what point?~STRANGER: One part may be set over
 66 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.~STRANGER: That division, then, is
 67 State|             two halves do you mean?~STRANGER: Of course that which exercises
 68 State|       beings.~YOUNG SOCRATES: True.~STRANGER: And the breeding and tending
 69 State|       flocks?~YOUNG SOCRATES: True.~STRANGER: But the statesman is not
 70 State|          Yes, I see, thanks to you.~STRANGER: Shall we call this art
 71 State|             course of conversation.~STRANGER: Very good, Socrates; and,
 72 State|          men and another of beasts.~STRANGER: You have certainly divided
 73 State|        SOCRATES: What is the error?~STRANGER: I think that we had better
 74 State|         SOCRATES: What do you mean, Stranger?~STRANGER: I will endeavour
 75 State|         What do you mean, Stranger?~STRANGER: I will endeavour to speak
 76 State|             in our recent division?~STRANGER: The error was just as if
 77 State|           be made somewhat plainer.~STRANGER: O Socrates, best of men,
 78 State|      declare—~YOUNG SOCRATES: What?~STRANGER: That a class and a part
 79 State|              What did I hear, then?~STRANGER: That a class is necessarily
 80 State|           YOUNG SOCRATES: So be it.~STRANGER: There is another thing
 81 State|         YOUNG SOCRATES: What is it?~STRANGER: The point at which we digressed;
 82 State|        other.~YOUNG SOCRATES: True.~STRANGER: I thought that in taking
 83 State|       SOCRATES: That again is true.~STRANGER: Suppose now, O most courageous
 84 State|       SOCRATES: How can we be safe?~STRANGER: If we do not divide the
 85 State|          better not take the whole?~STRANGER: Yes, there lay the source
 86 State|      division.~YOUNG SOCRATES: How?~STRANGER: You remember how that part
 87 State|         herds?~YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.~STRANGER: In that case, there was
 88 State|         wild.~YOUNG SOCRATES: True.~STRANGER: And the political science
 89 State|       animals.~YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.~STRANGER: But then we ought not to
 90 State|          SOCRATES: What misfortune?~STRANGER: The misfortune of too much
 91 State|       SOCRATES: And all the better, Stranger;—we got what we deserved.~
 92 State|            we got what we deserved.~STRANGER: Very well: Let us then
 93 State|         then—~YOUNG SOCRATES: What?~STRANGER: Have you ever heard, as
 94 State|         heard the others described.~STRANGER: And you may have heard
 95 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.~STRANGER: I asked you, because here
 96 State|           YOUNG SOCRATES: There is.~STRANGER: And do you agree that we
 97 State|         herds?~YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.~STRANGER: There is surely no need
 98 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.~STRANGER: Any one can divide the
 99 State|          How would you divide them?~STRANGER: I should distinguish between
100 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Most true.~STRANGER: And where shall we look
101 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.~STRANGER: The art of managing the
102 State|            YOUNG SOCRATES: Clearly.~STRANGER: Let me note that here appear
103 State|           Cannot we have both ways?~STRANGER: Together? What a thing
104 State|          like to have them in turn.~STRANGER: There will be no difficulty,
105 State|        YOUNG SOCRATES: Let me hear.~STRANGER: The tame walking herding
106 State|      SOCRATES: Upon what principle?~STRANGER: The one grows horns; and
107 State|            YOUNG SOCRATES: Clearly.~STRANGER: Suppose that you divide
108 State|         must I speak of them, then?~STRANGER: In this way: let the science
109 State|           may therefore be assumed.~STRANGER: The king is clearly the
110 State|          SOCRATES: That is evident.~STRANGER: Shall we break up this
111 State|             SOCRATES: By all means.~STRANGER: Shall we distinguish them
112 State|         mean.~YOUNG SOCRATES: What?~STRANGER: I mean that horses and
113 State|       another.~YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.~STRANGER: But the remainder of the
114 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.~STRANGER: And of which has the Statesman
115 State|             Clearly of the unmixed.~STRANGER: I suppose that we must
116 State|            YOUNG SOCRATES: We must.~STRANGER: Every tame and herding
117 State|          the two remaining species?~STRANGER: There is a measure of difference
118 State|             SOCRATES: What is that?~STRANGER: The diameter; and, again,
119 State|         SOCRATES: What do you mean?~STRANGER: How does man walk, but
120 State|            YOUNG SOCRATES: Just so.~STRANGER: And the power of the remaining
121 State|       pretty nearly understand you.~STRANGER: In these divisions, Socrates,
122 State|         YOUNG SOCRATES: What is it?~STRANGER: Human beings have come
123 State|          very singular coincidence.~STRANGER: And would you not expect
124 State|          SOCRATES: Indeed I should.~STRANGER: And there is a still more
125 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.~STRANGER: Then here, Socrates, is
126 State|               YOUNG SOCRATES: What?~STRANGER: That the dialectical method
127 State|            YOUNG SOCRATES: Clearly.~STRANGER: And now, I will not wait
128 State|             SOCRATES: By all means.~STRANGER: I say that we should have
129 State|       interest. (Compare Republic.)~STRANGER: Then now, let us go back
130 State|             SOCRATES: By all means.~STRANGER: The science of pure knowledge
131 State|         YOUNG SOCRATES: To be sure.~STRANGER: And do you think, Socrates,
132 State|          say?~YOUNG SOCRATES: What?~STRANGER: Do you think, I mean, that
133 State|      SOCRATES: I do not understand.~STRANGER: I will try to make the
134 State|        YOUNG SOCRATES: Let me hear.~STRANGER: There were many arts of
135 State|          herd?~YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.~STRANGER: And this the argument defined
136 State| collectively?~YOUNG SOCRATES: True.~STRANGER: Note, however, a difference
137 State|     SOCRATES: To what do you refer?~STRANGER: I want to ask, whether
138 State|         SOCRATES: What do you mean?~STRANGER: I mean to say that merchants,
139 State|             not right in saying so?~STRANGER: Very likely they may be,
140 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.~STRANGER: But if this is as you say,
141 State|         YOUNG SOCRATES: Surely not.~STRANGER: Had we not reason just
142 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.~STRANGER: And that, Socrates, is
143 State|          must certainly avoid that.~STRANGER: Then let us make a new
144 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: What road?~STRANGER: I think that we may have
145 State|             SOCRATES: By all means.~STRANGER: Listen, then, to a tale
146 State|        YOUNG SOCRATES: Let me hear.~STRANGER: There did really happen,
147 State|           birth of the golden lamb.~STRANGER: No, not that; but another
148 State|          there is that legend also.~STRANGER: Again, we have been often
149 State|          SOCRATES: Yes, very often.~STRANGER: Did you ever hear that
150 State|           is another old tradition.~STRANGER: All these stories, and
151 State|              and leave out nothing.~STRANGER: Listen, then. There is
152 State|        YOUNG SOCRATES: Why is that?~STRANGER: Why, because only the most
153 State|             very reasonable indeed.~STRANGER: Let us now reflect and
154 State|         this.~YOUNG SOCRATES: What?~STRANGER: The reversal which takes
155 State|              How is that the cause?~STRANGER: Of all changes of the heavenly
156 State|      SOCRATES: I should imagine so.~STRANGER: And it may be supposed
157 State|      changes would naturally occur.~STRANGER: And animals, as we know,
158 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.~STRANGER: Hence there necessarily
159 State|         YOUNG SOCRATES: What is it?~STRANGER: The life of all animals
160 State|           YOUNG SOCRATES: Then how, Stranger, were the animals created
161 State|            begotten of one another?~STRANGER: It is evident, Socrates,
162 State|         must have occurred in both.~STRANGER: I see that you enter into
163 State|         YOUNG SOCRATES: Impossible.~STRANGER: Then shall I determine
164 State|             SOCRATES: By all means.~STRANGER: Suppose that the nurslings
165 State|           error of which you speak?~STRANGER: There were two; the first
166 State|         SOCRATES: What do you mean?~STRANGER: I mean to say that when
167 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Very good.~STRANGER: Before we can expect to
168 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.~STRANGER: And the myth was introduced
169 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.~STRANGER: And I cannot help thinking,
170 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.~STRANGER: Still they must be investigated
171 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Of course.~STRANGER: To resume:—Do you remember
172 State|          SOCRATES: Yes, I remember.~STRANGER: There, somewhere, lay our
173 State|             SOCRATES: How was that?~STRANGER: All other herdsmen ‘rear’
174 State|            if there be such a name.~STRANGER: Why, is not ‘care’ of herds
175 State|          next step in the division?~STRANGER: As before we divided the
176 State|             ask, what is to follow.~STRANGER: If the word had been ‘managing’
177 State|         king.~YOUNG SOCRATES: True.~STRANGER: But no other art or science
178 State|         YOUNG SOCRATES: Quite true.~STRANGER: In the next place, Socrates,
179 State|        YOUNG SOCRATES: What was it?~STRANGER: Why, supposing we were
180 State|            SOCRATES: Certainly not.~STRANGER: Our first duty, as we were
181 State|     SOCRATES: How can they be made?~STRANGER: First, by separating the
182 State|      manager.~YOUNG SOCRATES: True.~STRANGER: And the art of management
183 State|        SOCRATES: On what principle?~STRANGER: On the principle of voluntary
184 State|    compulsory.~YOUNG SOCRATES: Why?~STRANGER: Because, if I am not mistaken,
185 State|   government.~YOUNG SOCRATES: True.~STRANGER: Then, now, as I said, let
186 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.~STRANGER: And if we call the management
187 State|            YOUNG SOCRATES: I think, Stranger, that we have now completed
188 State|           account of the Statesman.~STRANGER: Would that we had, Socrates,
189 State|             that you would tell me.~STRANGER: The higher ideas, my dear
190 State|         SOCRATES: What do you mean?~STRANGER: I fear that I have been
191 State|             YOUNG SOCRATES: Why so?~STRANGER: Why, because my ‘example’
192 State|             fear that I shall tire.~STRANGER: I will proceed, finding,
193 State|          What are you going to say?~STRANGER: That they distinguish the
194 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.~STRANGER: Whereas in other syllables
195 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.~STRANGER: Will not the best and easiest
196 State|            YOUNG SOCRATES: Be what?~STRANGER: To refer them first of
197 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.~STRANGER: Are not examples formed
198 State|            YOUNG SOCRATES: Exactly.~STRANGER: Can we wonder, then, that
199 State|          nothing wonderful in that.~STRANGER: Could any one, my friend,
200 State|             YOUNG SOCRATES: Hardly.~STRANGER: Then you and I will not
201 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.~STRANGER: Then, once more, let us
202 State|            YOUNG SOCRATES: Exactly.~STRANGER: What model is there which
203 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.~STRANGER: Why should we not apply
204 State|          SOCRATES: How do you mean?~STRANGER: I shall reply by actually
205 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Very good.~STRANGER: All things which we make
206 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Most true.~STRANGER: In the next place, let
207 State|         which are the kindred arts?~STRANGER: I see that I have not taken
208 State|             SOCRATES: I understand.~STRANGER: And we have subtracted
209 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Precisely.~STRANGER: Then we separated off the
210 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.~STRANGER: Yes, my boy, but that is
211 State|             YOUNG SOCRATES: How so?~STRANGER: Weaving is a sort of uniting?~
212 State|       uniting?~YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.~STRANGER: But the first process is
213 State|         SOCRATES: What do you mean?~STRANGER: I mean the work of the
214 State|            SOCRATES: Certainly not.~STRANGER: Again, if a person were
215 State|         YOUNG SOCRATES: To be sure.~STRANGER: Shall we say that the whole
216 State|            SOCRATES: Certainly not.~STRANGER: And yet surely all these
217 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.~STRANGER: Besides these, there are
218 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Most true.~STRANGER: Well, then, suppose that
219 State|         away?~YOUNG SOCRATES: True.~STRANGER: Then the next thing will
220 State|             SOCRATES: By all means.~STRANGER: Let us consider, in the
221 State|            SOCRATES: What are they?~STRANGER: The one kind is the conditional
222 State|         SOCRATES: What do you mean?~STRANGER: The arts which do not manufacture
223 State|             reasonable distinction.~STRANGER: Thus the arts which make
224 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.~STRANGER: The arts of washing and
225 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Very good.~STRANGER: Carding and spinning threads
226 State|         YOUNG SOCRATES: To be sure.~STRANGER: Of working in wool, again,
227 State|        YOUNG SOCRATES: How is that?~STRANGER: Carding and one half of
228 State|      division.~YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.~STRANGER: To the latter belong carding
229 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.~STRANGER: Again, let us take some
230 State|         SOCRATES: Let that be done.~STRANGER: And once more, Socrates,
231 State|            YOUNG SOCRATES: We must.~STRANGER: Yes, certainly, and let
232 State|            manufacture of the warp?~STRANGER: Yes, and of the woof too;
233 State|              There is no other way.~STRANGER: Then suppose that you define
234 State|            How shall I define them?~STRANGER: As thus: A piece of carded
235 State|           out.~YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.~STRANGER: And the wool thus prepared,
236 State|         warp.~YOUNG SOCRATES: True.~STRANGER: And the threads which are
237 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.~STRANGER: And, now, there can be
238 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.~STRANGER: But why did we not say
239 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: I thought, Stranger, that there was nothing
240 State|           useless in what was said.~STRANGER: Very likely, but you may
241 State|            YOUNG SOCRATES: Proceed.~STRANGER: Let us begin by considering
242 State|             SOCRATES: Let us do so.~STRANGER: The points on which I think
243 State|               YOUNG SOCRATES: What? STRANGER: Length and shortness, excess
244 State|    conversant.~YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.~STRANGER: And the art of measurement
245 State|        would you make the division?~STRANGER: As thus: I would make two
246 State|         SOCRATES: What do you mean?~STRANGER: Do you not think that it
247 State|         alone?~YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.~STRANGER: Well, but is there not
248 State|            YOUNG SOCRATES: Plainly.~STRANGER: Then we must suppose that
249 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.~STRANGER: If we assume the greater
250 State|         mean.~YOUNG SOCRATES: True.~STRANGER: And would not this doctrine
251 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.~STRANGER: But if the science of the
252 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.~STRANGER: Well, then, as in the case
253 State|             again what we did then.~STRANGER: But this, Socrates, is
254 State|         sort—~YOUNG SOCRATES: What?~STRANGER: That we shall some day
255 State|          and what is the next step?~STRANGER: The next step clearly is
256 State|             very different spheres.~STRANGER: There are many accomplished
257 State|       SOCRATES: We will not forget.~STRANGER: And now that this discussion
258 State|          What is this new question?~STRANGER: Take the case of a child
259 State|             knowledge of all words.~STRANGER: And is our enquiry about
260 State|             the purpose is general.~STRANGER: Still less would any rational
261 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Very good.~STRANGER: Let us call to mind the
262 State|         YOUNG SOCRATES: What is it?~STRANGER: I wanted to get rid of
263 State|             good. Will you proceed?~STRANGER: Then I would like to observe
264 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.~STRANGER: And yet, not everything
265 State|         good;—let us do as you say.~STRANGER: The art of the king has
266 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Very good.~STRANGER: You know that these arts
267 State|           Then we had better do so.~STRANGER: We must carve them like
268 State|            to be done in this case?~STRANGER: What we did in the example
269 State|  co-operative.~YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.~STRANGER: So now, and with still
270 State|         YOUNG SOCRATES: No, indeed.~STRANGER: The task of separating
271 State|             What class do you mean?~STRANGER: A class which may be described
272 State|     SOCRATES: To what do you refer?~STRANGER: To the class of vessels,
273 State|            SOCRATES: Certainly not.~STRANGER: There is also a third class
274 State|         YOUNG SOCRATES: What is it?~STRANGER: A vehicle, which is certainly
275 State|             SOCRATES: I understand.~STRANGER: And is there not a fourth
276 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.~STRANGER: Shall we add a fifth class,
277 State|         YOUNG SOCRATES: What is it?~STRANGER: Plaything is the name.~
278 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.~STRANGER: That one name may be fitly
279 State|            That again I understand.~STRANGER: Then there is a class which
280 State|         SOCRATES: What do you mean?~STRANGER: I am referring to gold,
281 State|          all.~YOUNG SOCRATES: True.~STRANGER: The provision of food and
282 State|            SOCRATES: Certainly not.~STRANGER: These seven classes include
283 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.~STRANGER: The class of slaves and
284 State|            YOUNG SOCRATES: I agree.~STRANGER: Let us go a little nearer,
285 State|             SOCRATES: Let us do so.~STRANGER: We shall find from our
286 State|             SOCRATES: Who are they?~STRANGER: Those who have been purchased,
287 State|            SOCRATES: Certainly not.~STRANGER: Again, freemen who of their
288 State|           the politics of commerce.~STRANGER: But surely men whom we
289 State|            SOCRATES: Certainly not.~STRANGER: But what would you say
290 State|           services do they perform?~STRANGER: There are heralds, and
291 State|          but not themselves rulers.~STRANGER: There may be something
292 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.~STRANGER: Well, let us draw nearer,
293 State|          men.~YOUNG SOCRATES: True.~STRANGER: There is also the priestly
294 State|             SOCRATES: Yes, clearly.~STRANGER: And here I think that we
295 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Precisely.~STRANGER: But who are these other
296 State|        SOCRATES: Whom can you mean?~STRANGER: They are a strange crew.~
297 State|        YOUNG SOCRATES: Why strange?~STRANGER: A minute ago I thought
298 State|             on some strange vision.~STRANGER: Yes; every one looks strange
299 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Who is he?~STRANGER: The chief of Sophists and
300 State|            lightly to be renounced.~STRANGER: Never, if I can help it;
301 State|     question.~YOUNG SOCRATES: What?~STRANGER: Is not monarchy a recognized
302 State|    government?~YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.~STRANGER: And, after monarchy, next
303 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Of course.~STRANGER: Is not the third form of
304 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.~STRANGER: And do not these three
305 State|            SOCRATES: What are they?~STRANGER: There is a criterion of
306 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.~STRANGER: And the government of the
307 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.~STRANGER: Democracy alone, whether
308 State|         name.~YOUNG SOCRATES: True.~STRANGER: But do you suppose that
309 State|            YOUNG SOCRATES: Why not?~STRANGER: Reflect; and follow me.~
310 State|        SOCRATES: In what direction?~STRANGER: Shall we abide by what
311 State|     SOCRATES: To what do you refer?~STRANGER: If I am not mistaken, we
312 State|       science?~YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.~STRANGER: And a science of a peculiar
313 State| authoritative?~YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.~STRANGER: And there was one kind
314 State|      science?~YOUNG SOCRATES: True.~STRANGER: Hence we are led to observe
315 State|          And we must be consistent.~STRANGER: Well, then, in which of
316 State|        intimated, will be our duty.~STRANGER: Do you think that the multitude
317 State|         YOUNG SOCRATES: Impossible.~STRANGER: But, perhaps, in a city
318 State|           in the previous argument.~STRANGER: Thank you for reminding
319 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.~STRANGER: And these, whether they
320 State|         YOUNG SOCRATES: Quite true.~STRANGER: Then that can be the only
321 State|        ruler.~YOUNG SOCRATES: True.~STRANGER: And whether with a view
322 State|            YOUNG SOCRATES: I agree, Stranger, in the greater part of
323 State|       expression has a harsh sound.~STRANGER: You have been too quick
324 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.~STRANGER: There can be no doubt that
325 State|            is?~YOUNG SOCRATES: Why?~STRANGER: Because the law does not
326 State|            SOCRATES: Of course not.~STRANGER: But the law is always striving
327 State|          manner which you describe.~STRANGER: A perfectly simple principle
328 State|       simple.~YOUNG SOCRATES: True.~STRANGER: Then if the law is not
329 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.~STRANGER: Let me ask, whether you
330 State|           are very common among us.~STRANGER: And what are the rules
331 State|     SOCRATES: To what do you refer?~STRANGER: The training-masters do
332 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.~STRANGER: And therefore they assign
333 State|           be.~YOUNG SOCRATES: True.~STRANGER: And now observe that the
334 State|        cannot be expected to do so.~STRANGER: He will lay down laws in
335 State|         SOCRATES: He will be right.~STRANGER: Yes, quite right; for how
336 State|             what has now been said.~STRANGER: Or rather, my good friend,
337 State|         SOCRATES: And what is that?~STRANGER: Let us put to ourselves
338 State|     patients.~YOUNG SOCRATES: True.~STRANGER: But what would you say,
339 State|            YOUNG SOCRATES: Utterly.~STRANGER: And if he who gave laws,
340 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.~STRANGER: Do you know a plausible
341 State|             you mean at the moment.~STRANGER: They say that if any one
342 State|             And are they not right?~STRANGER: I dare say. But supposing
343 State|         SOCRATES: What do you mean?~STRANGER: Suppose that a skilful
344 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Most true.~STRANGER: In the political art error
345 State|         YOUNG SOCRATES: Quite true.~STRANGER: And when the citizen, contrary
346 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.~STRANGER: And shall we say that the
347 State|             what has been now said.~STRANGER: Neither, if you consider,
348 State|        YOUNG SOCRATES: What was it?~STRANGER: We said that no great number
349 State|            remark about imitations.~STRANGER: And yet the mere suggestion
350 State|         SOCRATES: What do you mean?~STRANGER: The idea which has to be
351 State|             SOCRATES: What is this?~STRANGER: No citizen should do anything
352 State|             SOCRATES: By all means.~STRANGER: I must again have recourse
353 State|        YOUNG SOCRATES: What images?~STRANGER: The noble pilot and the
354 State|              What sort of an image?~STRANGER: Well, such as this:—Every
355 State|              What a strange notion!~STRANGER: Suppose further, that the
356 State|          SOCRATES: Worse and worse.~STRANGER: But hear what follows:—
357 State|     deserves to suffer any penalty.~STRANGER: Yet once more, we shall
358 State|         become utterly unendurable.~STRANGER: But what, if while compelling
359 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.~STRANGER: To go against the laws,
360 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.~STRANGER: Therefore, as there is
361 State|     whatever.~YOUNG SOCRATES: True.~STRANGER: The laws would be copies
362 State|     SOCRATES: Certainly they would.~STRANGER: And, as we were saying,
363 State|          SOCRATES: Yes, we said so.~STRANGER: And any individual or any
364 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.~STRANGER: If they had no knowledge
365 State|         YOUNG SOCRATES: Quite true.~STRANGER: And the principle that
366 State|        YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes, it has.~STRANGER: Then the royal or political
367 State|         YOUNG SOCRATES: Impossible.~STRANGER: Then the nearest approach
368 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Very good.~STRANGER: When the rich imitate the
369 State|    oligarchy.~YOUNG SOCRATES: True.~STRANGER: Or again, when an individual
370 State|         YOUNG SOCRATES: To be sure.~STRANGER: And when an individual
371 State|             SOCRATES: That is true.~STRANGER: And when an individual
372 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.~STRANGER: And this we believe to
373 State|         YOUNG SOCRATES: To be sure.~STRANGER: But then, as the State
374 State|   government.~YOUNG SOCRATES: True.~STRANGER: And when the foundation
375 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.~STRANGER: Then the question arises:—
376 State|             SOCRATES: Yes, we must.~STRANGER: You may say that of the
377 State|         SOCRATES: What do you mean?~STRANGER: I am speaking of the three
378 State|         many.~YOUNG SOCRATES: True.~STRANGER: If we divide each of these
379 State|        would you make the division?~STRANGER: Monarchy divides into royalty
380 State|         what principle of division?~STRANGER: On the same principle as
381 State|          rest.~YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.~STRANGER: The division made no difference
382 State|            from what has been said.~STRANGER: Then monarchy, when bound
383 State|      subject.~YOUNG SOCRATES: True.~STRANGER: The government of the few,
384 State|       should choose that above all.~STRANGER: The members of all these
385 State|    politicians, as they are termed.~STRANGER: And so our satyric drama
386 State|            SOCRATES: So I perceive.~STRANGER: There remain, however,
387 State|     SOCRATES: What is your meaning?~STRANGER: The workmen begin by sifting
388 State|         things are said to be done.~STRANGER: In like manner, all alien
389 State|           some way to be attempted.~STRANGER: If the attempt is all that
390 State|            SOCRATES: What question?~STRANGER: There is such a thing as
391 State|           YOUNG SOCRATES: There is.~STRANGER: And is there any higher
392 State|        should answer that there is.~STRANGER: And do we acknowledge this
393 State|        others?~YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.~STRANGER: And ought the other sciences
394 State|         YOUNG SOCRATES: The latter.~STRANGER: You mean to say that the
395 State|             SOCRATES: Far superior.~STRANGER: And the science which determines
396 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Of course.~STRANGER: Very good; and to what
397 State|            be assigned to rhetoric.~STRANGER: And to what science do
398 State|           of speech and persuasion.~STRANGER: Which, if I am not mistaken,
399 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Very good.~STRANGER: Rhetoric seems to be quickly
400 State|            it.~YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.~STRANGER: But what would you think
401 State|             SOCRATES: What science?~STRANGER: The science which has to
402 State|            as other than a science?~STRANGER: And is the art which is
403 State|              we must say different.~STRANGER: And we must also suppose
404 State|       notion?~YOUNG SOCRATES: True.~STRANGER: And, considering how great
405 State|           YOUNG SOCRATES: No other.~STRANGER: The art of the general
406 State|            YOUNG SOCRATES: Exactly.~STRANGER: Once more let us consider
407 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Very good.~STRANGER: Does he do anything but
408 State|            is such as you describe.~STRANGER: Then the inference is that
409 State|        power?~YOUNG SOCRATES: True.~STRANGER: The review of all these
410 State|       orders.~YOUNG SOCRATES: True.~STRANGER: And, therefore, the arts
411 State|            YOUNG SOCRATES: I agree.~STRANGER: And the science which is
412 State|         YOUNG SOCRATES: Exactly so.~STRANGER: Then, now that we have
413 State|        greatly wish that you would.~STRANGER: Then I must describe the
414 State|            YOUNG SOCRATES: Clearly.~STRANGER: A task has to be accomplished,
415 State|           the attempt must be made.~STRANGER: To assume that one part
416 State|      SOCRATES: I do not understand.~STRANGER: Let me put the matter in
417 State|       SOCRATES: Certainly I should.~STRANGER: And you would think temperance
418 State|       virtue?~YOUNG SOCRATES: True.~STRANGER: I shall venture to put
419 State|         YOUNG SOCRATES: What is it?~STRANGER: That they are two principles
420 State|             SOCRATES: How singular!~STRANGER: Yes, very—for all the parts
421 State|       another.~YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.~STRANGER: Then let us carefully investigate
422 State|             consider that question.~STRANGER: We must extend our enquiry
423 State|             Explain; what are they?~STRANGER: Acuteness and quickness,
424 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.~STRANGER: And do you remember the
425 State|           YOUNG SOCRATES: I do not.~STRANGER: I wonder whether I can
426 State|            YOUNG SOCRATES: Why not?~STRANGER: You fancy that this is
427 State|       courage.~YOUNG SOCRATES: How?~STRANGER: We speak of an action as
428 State|         them.~YOUNG SOCRATES: True.~STRANGER: And do we not often praise
429 State|         YOUNG SOCRATES: To be sure.~STRANGER: And do we not then say
430 State|          SOCRATES: How do you mean?~STRANGER: We exclaim How calm! How
431 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.~STRANGER: But when, on the other
432 State|             YOUNG SOCRATES: How so?~STRANGER: Too great sharpness or
433 State|          SOCRATES: In what respect?~STRANGER: In respect of all the qualities
434 State|         them.~YOUNG SOCRATES: True.~STRANGER: The difference between
435 State|     SOCRATES: To what do you refer?~STRANGER: To nothing short of the
436 State|        SOCRATES: What a cruel fate!~STRANGER: And now think of what happens
437 State|     SOCRATES: That, again, is true.~STRANGER: Must we not admit, then,
438 State|        SOCRATES: We cannot deny it.~STRANGER: And returning to the enquiry
439 State|         them?~YOUNG SOCRATES: True.~STRANGER: Let us consider a further
440 State|         YOUNG SOCRATES: What is it?~STRANGER: I want to know, whether
441 State|        YOUNG SOCRATES: To, be sure.~STRANGER: Then the true and natural
442 State|         YOUNG SOCRATES: Quite true.~STRANGER: In like manner, the royal
443 State|              That is commonly said.~STRANGER: But those who are wallowing
444 State|        YOUNG SOCRATES: Quite right.~STRANGER: The rest of the citizens,
445 State|           SOCRATES: In what manner?~STRANGER: First of all, she takes
446 State|           understand what you mean.~STRANGER: The meaning is, that the
447 State|             what else should it be?~STRANGER: Only the Statesman and
448 State|            SOCRATES: Likely enough.~STRANGER: But him who cannot, we
449 State|         YOUNG SOCRATES: Very right.~STRANGER: The courageous soul when
450 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.~STRANGER: And again, the peaceful
451 State|         YOUNG SOCRATES: Quite true.~STRANGER: Can we say that such a
452 State|         YOUNG SOCRATES: Impossible.~STRANGER: But in those who were originally
453 State|          YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.~STRANGER: Where this divine bond
454 State|             what bonds do you mean?~STRANGER: Rights of intermarriage,
455 State|        YOUNG SOCRATES: In what way?~STRANGER: They seek after wealth
456 State|            to consider them at all.~STRANGER: More reason is there to
457 State|         YOUNG SOCRATES: Quite true.~STRANGER: They act on no true principle
458 State|             YOUNG SOCRATES: How so?~STRANGER: The quiet orderly class
459 State|      SOCRATES: How and why is that?~STRANGER: Because courage, when untempered
460 State|        YOUNG SOCRATES: Like enough.~STRANGER: And then, again, the soul
461 State|             again, is quite likely.~STRANGER: It was of these bonds I
462 State|          SOCRATES: How do you mean?~STRANGER: Where one officer only
463 State|       Certainly, that is very true.~STRANGER: The character of the courageous,
464 State|              Certainly they cannot.~STRANGER: This then we declare to
465 State|             SOCRATES: Your picture, Stranger, of the king and statesman,