(...) The Republic
     Book
1501 1    |       consented to begin. Behold, he said, the wisdom of Socrates;
1502 1    |              well. ~Listen, then, he said; I proclaim that justice
1503 1    |           Not at all, my good sir, I said; I am trying to understand
1504 1    |            little clearer. ~Well, he said, have you never heard that
1505 1    |              Now I understand you, I said; and whether you are right
1506 1    |         addition, you must allow, he said. ~Great or small, never
1507 1    |            can be clearer, Socrates, said Polemarchus. ~Yes, said
1508 1    |              said Polemarchus. ~Yes, said Cleitophon, interposing,
1509 1    |              no need of any witness, said Polemarchus, for Thrasymachus
1510 1    |             Polemarchus-Thrasymachus said that for subjects to do
1511 1    |              Cleitophon, but he also said that justice is the interest
1512 1    |      interest of the stronger. ~But, said Cleitophon, he meant by
1513 1    |             Tell me, Thrasymachus, I said, did you mean by justice
1514 1    |              not? ~Certainly not, he said. Do you suppose that I call
1515 1    |              he is mistaken? ~Yes, I said, my impression was that
1516 1    |       implies; though he is commonly said to err, and I adopted the
1517 1    |        commands; and therefore, as I said at first and now repeat,
1518 1    |          strictest of all senses, he said. And now cheat and play
1519 1    |                And do you imagine, I said, that I am such a madman
1520 1    |          well shave a lion. ~Why, he said, you made the attempt a
1521 1    |           and you failed. ~Enough, I said, of these civilities. It
1522 1    |              sailors. ~Very true, he said. ~Now, I said, every art
1523 1    |          Very true, he said. ~Now, I said, every art has an interest? ~
1524 1    |      interest of the body? ~True, he said. ~Nor does the art of horsemanship
1525 1    |              of their art? ~True, he said. ~But surely, Thrasymachus,
1526 1    |              of reluctance. ~Then, I said, no science or art considers
1527 1    |            reluctant "Yes." ~Then, I said, Thrasymachus, there is
1528 1    |           instead of replying to me, said, Tell me, Socrates, have
1529 1    |           you ask such a question, I said, when you ought rather to
1530 1    |              than justice; and, as I said at first, justice is the
1531 1    |            leave us. Thrasymachus, I said to him, excellent man, how
1532 1    |             do I differ from you, he said, as to the importance of
1533 1    |             am I to convince you, he said, if you are not already
1534 1    |        convinced by what I have just said; what more can I do for
1535 1    |             souls? ~Heaven forbid! I said; I would only ask you to
1536 1    |           recall what was previously said, that although you began
1537 1    |             sea, and so on? ~Yes, he said. ~And the art of payment
1538 1    |              And we have admitted, I said, that the good of each art
1539 1    |          What do you mean, Socrates? said Glaucon. The first two modes
1540 1    |               And for this reason, I said, money and honor have no
1541 1    |        certainly, he replied. ~If, I said, he makes a set speech and
1542 1    |              persons. ~Very good, he said. ~And which method do I
1543 1    |          understand you to prefer? I said. ~That which you propose. ~
1544 1    |          Well, then, Thrasymachus, I said, suppose you begin at the
1545 1    |              wise and good? ~Yes, he said; at any rate those of them
1546 1    |            do so class them. ~Now, I said, you are on more substantial
1547 1    |              business. ~Very true, I said; that is what I have to
1548 1    |              or would not be able, I said, is not to the point. My
1549 1    |              is just? ~Of course, he said, for he claims to have more
1550 1    |             his unlike? ~Nothing, he said, can be better than that
1551 1    |             neither? ~Good again, he said. ~And is not the unjust
1552 1    |          unlike them? ~Of course, he said, he who is of a certain
1553 1    |           not, not. ~Each of them, I said, is such as his like is? ~
1554 1    |           Very good, Thrasymachus, I said; and now to take the case
1555 1    |             They were. ~And you also said that the just will not go
1556 1    |              another point: ~Well, I said, Thrasymachus, that matter
1557 1    |       remember? ~Yes, I remember, he said, but do not suppose that
1558 1    |               No." ~Certainly not, I said, if contrary to your real
1559 1    |          your real opinion. ~Yes, he said, I will, to please you,
1560 1    |              Nothing in the world, I said; and if you are so disposed
1561 1    |          likely to do so. ~I know, I said, that such was your position;
1562 1    |       replied. ~You are very kind, I said; and would you have the
1563 1    |              another? No, indeed, he said, they could not. ~But if
1564 1    |           Thrasymachus? ~I agree, he said, because I do not wish to
1565 1    |             you. ~How good of you, I said; but I should like to know
1566 1    |             Yes. And, O my friend, I said, surely the gods are just? ~
1567 1    |             matter, and not what you said at first. But whether the
1568 1    |              I do not understand, he said. ~Let me explain: Can you
1569 1    |            These, then, may be truly said to be the ends of these
1570 1    |          understand your meaning, he said, and assent. ~And that to
1571 1    |           instead? ~How can they, he said, if they are blind and cannot
1572 1    |             the soul? ~Assuredly, he said. ~And has not the soul an
1573 1    |               Let this, Socrates, he said, be your entertainment at
1574 1    |              I am indebted to you, I said, now that you have grown
1575 2    |           have the battle out. So he said to me: Socrates, do you
1576 2    |         their results? ~Certainly, I said. ~And would you not recognize
1577 2    |              from them? ~There is, I said, this third class also.
1578 2    |            to be avoided. ~I know, I said, that this is their manner
1579 2    |        convinced by him. ~I wish, he said, that you would hear me
1580 2    |           form of such a power as is said to have been possessed by
1581 2    |          Heavens! my dear Glaucon, I said, how energetically you polish
1582 2    |           statues. ~I do my best, he said. And now that we know what
1583 2    |           Socrates, gods and men are said to unite in making the life
1584 2    |             interposed: Socrates, he said, you do not suppose that
1585 2    |             that Glaucon has already said quite enough to lay me in
1586 2    |              the young hear all this said about virtue and vice, and
1587 2    |             was quite delighted, and said: Sons of an illustrious
1588 2    |            good eyes. Seeing then, I said, that we are no great wits,
1589 2    |            good-fortune. ~Very true, said Adeimantus; but how does
1590 2    |            comparing them. ~That, he said, is an excellent proposal. ~
1591 2    |          attempt to construct one? I said; for to do so, as I am inclined
1592 2    |        therefore. ~I have reflected, said Adeimantus, and am anxious
1593 2    |          should proceed. ~A State, I said, arises, as I conceive,
1594 2    |            termed a State. ~True, he said. ~And they exchange with
1595 2    |           good. ~Very true. ~Then, I said, let us begin and create
1596 2    |           called merchants? ~Yes, he said. ~And there is another class
1597 2    |          right in your suggestion, I said; we had better think the
1598 2    |             to poverty or war. ~But, said Glaucon, interposing, you
1599 2    |             them. ~Yes, Socrates, he said, and if you were providing
1600 2    |         Glaucon? I replied. ~Why, he said, you should give them the
1601 2    |            the modern style. ~Yes, I said, now I understand: the question
1602 2    |          must be procured. ~True, he said. ~Then we must enlarge our
1603 2    |           describing above. ~Why? he said; are they not capable of
1604 2    |         defending themselves? ~No, I said; not if we were right in
1605 2    |              success. ~Very true, he said. ~But is not war an art? ~
1606 2    |             kind of troops? ~Yes, he said, the tools which would teach
1607 2    |            duties of the guardian, I said, the more time and skill
1608 2    |            will be no easy matter, I said; but we must be brave and
1609 2    |              he replied. ~Whereas, I said, they ought to be dangerous
1610 2    |              destroy them. ~True, he said. ~What is to be done, then?
1611 2    |          What is to be done, then? I said; how shall we find a gentle
1612 2    |           had preceded. My friend, I said, no wonder that we are in
1613 2    |            us. ~What do you mean? he said. ~I mean to say that there
1614 2    |              service to us. ~Then, I said, my dear friend, the task
1615 2    |          understand your meaning, he said. ~You know, I said, that
1616 2    |       meaning, he said. ~You know, I said, that we begin by telling
1617 2    |           That was my meaning when I said that we must teach music
1618 2    |         gymnastics. ~Quite right, he said. ~You know also that the
1619 2    |           tales are you speaking? he said. ~You may find a model of
1620 2    |             lesser in the greater, I said; for they are necessarily
1621 2    |          term the greater. ~Those, I said, which are narrated by Homer
1622 2    |              stories do you mean, he said; and what fault do you find
1623 2    |             which is most serious, I said; the fault of telling a
1624 2    |            to the original. ~Yes, he said, that sort of thing is certainly
1625 2    |           you mean? ~First of all, I said, there was that greatest
1626 2    |          very few indeed. ~Why, yes, said he, those stories are extremely
1627 2    |          entirely agree with you, he said; in my opinion those stories
1628 2    |           basest, should any word be said to them of the wars in heaven,
1629 2    |              shall we answer him? ~I said to him, You and I, Adeimantus,
1630 2    |             business. ~Very true, he said; but what are these forms
1631 2    |            to me to be most true, he said. ~Then we must not listen
1632 2    |    strenuously denied, and not to be said or sung or heard in verse
1633 2    |              only. ~That will do, he said. ~And what do you think
1634 2    |              I cannot answer you, he said, without more thought. ~
1635 2    |       without more thought. ~Well, I said; but if we suppose a change
1636 2    |      transform himself? ~Clearly, he said, that must be the case if
1637 2    |              necessarily follows, he said, in my judgment. ~Then,
1638 2    |             in my judgment. ~Then, I said, my dear friend, let none
1639 2    |             gods. ~Heaven forbid, he said. ~But although the gods
1640 2    |         replied. ~Do you not know, I said, that the true lie, if such
1641 2    |           men? ~What do you mean? he said. ~I mean that no one is
1642 2    |        possession of him. ~Still, he said, I do not comprehend you. ~
1643 2    |              account. ~Very true, he said. ~But can any of these reasons
1644 2    |              would be ridiculous, he said. ~Then the lying poet has
1645 2    |           vision. ~Your thoughts, he said, are the reflection of my
1646 2    |            You agree with me then, I said, that this is the second
1647 2    |              at the banquet, and who said this-he it is who has slain
1648 2    |          them. ~I entirely agree, he said, in these principles, and
1649 3    |          ADEIMANTUS.) ~SUCH, then, I said, are our principles of theology-some
1650 3    |             principles are right, he said. ~But if they are to be
1651 3    |              him? ~Certainly not, he said. ~And can he be fearless
1652 3    |            That will be our duty, he said. ~Then, I said, we shall
1653 3    |              duty, he said. ~Then, I said, we shall have to obliterate
1654 3    |           There is a real danger, he said. ~Then we must have no more
1655 3    |              of other men. ~True, he said. ~And for this reason the
1656 3    |           slight occasions. ~Yes, he said, that is most true. ~Yes,
1657 3    |          with them. ~Clearly not, he said. ~Then if anyone at all
1658 3    |       fellow-sailors. ~Most true, he said. ~If, then, the ruler catches
1659 3    |           State. ~Most certainly, he said, if our idea of the State
1660 3    |           and Aphrodite? ~Indeed, he said, I am strongly of opinion
1661 3    |             as, for example, what is said in the verses, ~"He smote
1662 3    |             endured!" ~Certainly, he said. ~In the next place, we
1663 3    |              do so. ~Undoubtedly, he said, these are not sentiments
1664 3    |          things are or are not to be said about men is a question
1665 3    |          just or not. ~Most true, he said. ~Enough of the subjects
1666 3    |            understand what you mean, said Adeimantus. ~Then I must
1667 3    |             the two? That, again, he said, I do not quite understand. ~
1668 3    |         narrative of the poet may be said to proceed by way of imitation? ~
1669 3    |            be effected. If Homer had said, "The priest came, having
1670 3    |         narrative. ~I understand, he said. ~Or you may suppose the
1671 3    |            only left. ~That also, he said, I understand; you mean,
1672 3    |           take you with me? ~Yes, he said; I see now what you meant. ~
1673 3    |              into our State? ~Yes, I said; but there may be more than
1674 3    |              go. ~And go we will, he said. ~Then, Adeimantus, let
1675 3    |            mind? ~Yes, certainly, he said. ~Then, I said, we will
1676 3    |         certainly, he said. ~Then, I said, we will not allow those
1677 3    |            or labor. ~Very right, he said. ~Neither must they represent
1678 3    |              like? ~How can they, he said, when they are not allowed
1679 3    |              sort of thing? ~Nay, he said, if madness be forbidden,
1680 3    |              of madmen. ~You mean, I said, if I understand you aright,
1681 3    |            you agree? ~Certainly, he said; that is the model which
1682 3    |          little narration. ~That, he said, will be his mode of speaking. ~
1683 3    |               That is quite true, he said. ~Whereas the other requires
1684 3    |      together. ~They include all, he said. ~And shall we receive into
1685 3    |          imitator of virtue. ~Yes, I said, Adeimantus; but the mixed
1686 3    |           same throughout? ~True, he said. ~And therefore when any
1687 3    |                We certainly will, he said, if we have the power. ~
1688 3    |               Then now, my friend, I said, that part of music or literary
1689 3    |       discussed. ~I think so too, he said. ~Next in order will follow
1690 3    |             with ourselves. ~I fear, said Glaucon, laughing, that
1691 3    |             may presuppose? ~Yes, he said; so much as that you may. ~
1692 3    |            such like. ~These then, I said, must be banished; they
1693 3    |          just now speaking. ~Then, I said, if these and these only
1694 3    |             is not at all strange, I said. ~Not at all, he replied. ~
1695 3    |              finish the purgation, I said. Next in order to harmonies,
1696 3    |              unable to say. ~Then, I said, we must take Damon into
1697 3    |          words by them. ~Just so, he said, they should follow the
1698 3    |               That is quite true, he said. ~But shall our superintendence
1699 3    |           replied. ~And therefore, I said, Glaucon, musical training
1700 3    |              long familiar. ~Yes, he said, I quite agree with you
1701 3    |            as in learning to read, I said, we were satisfied when
1702 3    |             the same. ~I perceive, I said, that you have or have had
1703 3    |          harmonious? ~Quite true, he said. ~Then no intemperance or
1704 3    |            taste. ~I quite agree, he said. ~Thus much of music, which
1705 3    |              of beauty? ~I agree, he said. ~After music comes gymnastics,
1706 3    |            the world he is. ~Yes, he said; that a guardian should
1707 3    |           all-are they not? ~Yes, he said. ~And will the habit of
1708 3    |             Why not? ~I am afraid, I said, that a habit of body such
1709 3    |        regimen? ~Yes, I do. ~Then, I said, a finer sort of training
1710 3    |        nothing of the kind. ~Yes, he said; and knowing this, they
1711 3    |             the body. ~Most true, he said. ~But when intemperance
1712 3    |              him? ~Of all things, he said, the most disgraceful. ~
1713 3    |           more disgraceful? ~Yes, he said, that is still more disgraceful. ~
1714 3    |           more disgraceful. ~Well, I said, and to require the help
1715 3    |            too, a disgrace? ~Yes, he said, they do certainly give
1716 3    |           names to diseases. ~Yes, I said, and I do not believe that
1717 3    |         treating his case. ~Well, he said, that was surely an extraordinary
1718 3    |          former days, as is commonly said, before the time of Herodicus,
1719 3    |            of medicine, which may be said to educate diseases. But
1720 3    |             world. ~How was that? he said. ~By the invention of lingering
1721 3    |         reward of his skill! ~Yes, I said; a reward which a man might
1722 3    |           sort. ~How do you mean? he said. ~I mean this: When a carpenter
1723 3    |            no more trouble. ~Yes, he said, and a man in his condition
1724 3    |             far only. ~Has he not, I said, an occupation; and what
1725 3    |          occupation? ~Quite true, he said. ~But with the rich man
1726 3    |            practise virtue? ~Nay, he said, I think that he had better
1727 3    |       dispute with him about this, I said; but rather ask ourselves:
1728 3    |              to the State. ~Then, he said, you regard Asclepius as
1729 3    |            of moral natures? ~Yes, I said, I too would have good judges
1730 3    |            How so? he asked. ~Why, I said, you join physicians and
1731 3    |                That is very true, he said. ~But with the judge it
1732 3    |            their own souls. ~Yes, he said, they are far too apt to
1733 3    |              deceived. ~Therefore, I said, the judge should not be
1734 3    |        personal experience. ~Yes, he said, that is the ideal of a
1735 3    |              foolish. ~Most true, he said. ~Then the good and wise
1736 3    |            simple music which, as we said, inspires temperance, will
1737 3    |             muscles. ~Very right, he said. ~Neither are the two arts
1738 3    |        object of them? ~I believe, I said, that the teachers of both
1739 3    |             Did you never observe, I said, the effect on the mind
1740 3    |                In what way shown? he said. ~The one producing a temper
1741 3    |      effeminacy, I replied. ~Yes, he said, I am quite aware that the
1742 3    |              for him. ~Yet surely, I said, this ferocity only comes
1743 3    |            of their mists? ~True, he said. ~And he ends by becoming
1744 3    |               That is quite true, he said. ~And as there are two principles
1745 3    |            difficulty. ~Very good, I said; then what is the next question?
1746 3    |             State. ~How cast off? he said. ~I will explain to you,
1747 3    |             truth. ~I understand, he said, the willing loss of a resolution;
1748 3    |           have yet to learn. ~Why, I said, do you not see that men
1749 3    |           opinion. ~I understand, he said, and you are quite right. ~
1750 3    |          influence of fear? ~Yes, he said; everything that deceives
1751 3    |      everything that deceives may be said to enchant. ~Therefore,
1752 3    |             he replied. ~And then, I said, we must try them with enchantments-that
1753 3    |      generally, I agree with you, he said. ~And perhaps the word "
1754 3    |        rulers. ~I agree with you, he said. ~How then may we devise
1755 3    |          city? ~What sort of lie? he said. ~Nothing new, I replied;
1756 3    |           you have heard. ~Speak, he said, and fear not. Well, then,
1757 3    |              You had good reason, he said, to be ashamed of the lie
1758 3    |              dwellings. ~Just so, he said. ~And their dwellings must
1759 3    |          houses, he replied. ~Yes, I said; but they must be the houses
1760 3    |           What is the difference? he said. ~That I will endeavor to
1761 3    |       shepherd? ~Truly monstrous, he said. ~And therefore every care
1762 3    |        confident, my dear Glaucon, I said; I am much more certain
1763 3    |             all other matters? ~Yes, said Glaucon. ~
1764 4    |          would you answer, Socrates, said he, if a person were to
1765 4    |              mounting guard? ~Yes, I said; and you may add that they
1766 4    |         nature might be added. ~But, said he, let us suppose all this
1767 4    |          charge. ~You mean to ask, I said, what will be our answer? ~
1768 4    |           the old path, my belief, I said, is that we shall find the
1769 4    |            someone came up to us and said: Why do you not put the
1770 4    |            What are they? ~Wealth, I said, and poverty. ~How do they
1771 4    |            discovery of new evils, I said, against which the guardians
1772 4    |               What evils? ~Wealth, I said, and poverty; the one is
1773 4    |                In the first place, I said, if we have to fight, our
1774 4    |          rich men. ~That is true, he said. ~And do you not suppose,
1775 4    |           him at once. ~What, not, I said, if he were able to run
1776 4    |            personage? ~Certainly, he said, there would be nothing
1777 4    |                That is most true, he said. ~And what, I said, will
1778 4    |          true, he said. ~And what, I said, will be the best limit
1779 4    |         proper limit. ~Very good, he said. ~Here then, I said, is
1780 4    |               he said. ~Here then, I said, is another order which
1781 4    |         self-sufficing. ~And surely, said he, this is not a very severe
1782 4    |           upon them. ~And the other, said I, of which we were speaking
1783 4    |           one and not many. ~Yes, he said; that is not so difficult. ~
1784 4    |              he asked. ~Education, I said, and nurture: If our citizens
1785 4    |              settling them. ~Also, I said, the State, if once started
1786 4    |          animals. ~Very possibly, he said. ~Then to sum up: This is
1787 4    |              change with them. ~Yes, said Adeimantus; and you may
1788 4    |             s and your own. ~Then, I said, our guardians must lay
1789 4    |          fortress in music? ~Yes, he said; the lawlessness of which
1790 4    |              harmless. ~Why, yes, he said, and there is no harm; were
1791 4    |             public. ~Is that true? I said. ~That is my belief, he
1792 4    |             citizens. ~Very true, he said. ~And when they have made
1793 4    |             up again. ~Very true, he said. ~Thus educated, they will
1794 4    |               And for this reason, I said, I shall not attempt to
1795 4    |            particulars? ~I think, he said, that there is no need to
1796 4    |              for themselves. ~Yes, I said, my friend, if God will
1797 4    |             And without divine help, said Adeimantus, they will go
1798 4    |            You would compare them, I said, to those invalids who,
1799 4    |      intemperance? ~Exactly. ~Yes, I said; and what a delightful life
1800 4    |            cases are very common, he said, with invalids of this sort. ~
1801 4    |           right. ~These gentlemen, I said, do not seem to be in your
1802 4    |             was describing? ~Yes, he said; the States are as bad as
1803 4    |             But do you not admire, I said, the coolness and dexterity
1804 4    |       political corruption? ~Yes, he said, I do; but not of all of
1805 4    |        admired. ~What do you mean? I said; you should have more feeling
1806 4    |              what they say? ~Nay, he said, certainly not in that case. ~
1807 4    |           heads of a hydra? ~Yes, he said; that is just what they
1808 4    |            are doing. ~I conceive, I said, that the true legislator
1809 4    |         regulations. ~What, then, he said, is still remaining to us
1810 4    |             all. ~Which are they? he said. ~The institution of temples
1811 4    |             gods and men. ~Nonsense, said Glaucon: did you not promise
1812 4    |       impiety? ~I do not deny that I said so; and as you remind me,
1813 4    |             one left. ~Very true, he said. ~And is not a similar method
1814 4    |              have been describing is said to be wise as being good
1815 4    |        advises about brazen pots, he said, nor as possessing any other
1816 4    |            reason of any of them, he said. ~Nor yet by reason of a
1817 4    |         agricultural? ~Yes. ~Well, I said, and is there any knowledge
1818 4    |            Most true. ~Thus, then, I said, the nature and place in
1819 4    |    discovered, he replied. ~Again, I said, there is no difficulty
1820 4    |             How do you mean? ~Why, I said, everyone who calls any
1821 4    |             you please. ~You know, I said, that dyers, when they want
1822 4    |            any other color. ~Yes, he said; I know that they have a
1823 4    |             appearance. ~Then now, I said, you will understand what
1824 4    |             you describe? ~Why, yes, said I, you may, and if you add
1825 4    |       purpose of our inquiry we have said enough. ~You are right,
1826 4    |              can be accomplished, he said, nor do I desire that justice
1827 4    |          request. ~Then consider, he said. ~Yes, I replied; I will;
1828 4    |              language. ~No doubt, he said. ~There is something ridiculous
1829 4    |         under control, then a man is said to be master of himself;
1830 4    |          reason in that. ~And now, I said, look at our newly created
1831 4    |             over the worse. ~Yes, he said, I see that what you say
1832 4    |       numerous class. ~Certainly, he said. ~Whereas the simple and
1833 4    |            few. ~That I perceive, he said. ~Then if there be any city
1834 4    |           agree with you. ~And so, I said, we may consider three out
1835 4    |             way. ~Here is no path, I said, and the wood is dark and
1836 4    |             saw something: Halloo! I said, I begin to perceive a track,
1837 4    |           not escape. ~Good news, he said. ~Truly, I said, we are
1838 4    |             news, he said. ~Truly, I said, we are stupid fellows. ~
1839 4    |               Well, then, tell me, I said, whether I am right or not:
1840 4    |           part of it. ~Yes, we often said that one man should do one
1841 4    |             not being a busybody; we said so again and again, and
1842 4    |          again, and many others have said the same to us. ~Yes, we
1843 4    |             the same to us. ~Yes, we said so. ~Then to do one's own
1844 4    |        temperance, courage. ~Yes, he said. ~And the virtue which enters
1845 4    |           Most true. Seeing, then, I said, that there are three distinct
1846 4    |            with you. ~We will not, I said, be over-positive as yet;
1847 4    |              same classes? ~True, he said. ~And so of the individual;
1848 4    |          same manner? ~Certainly, he said. ~Once more, then, O my
1849 4    |              the good. ~Very true, I said; and I do not think that
1850 4    |              satisfied with that? he said; under the circumstances,
1851 4    |         pursuing the speculation, he said. ~Must we not acknowledge,
1852 4    |           Must we not acknowledge, I said, that in each of us there
1853 4    |         nations; and the same may be said of the love of knowledge,
1854 4    |           Egyptians. ~Exactly so, he said. ~There is no difficulty
1855 4    |             the difficulty. ~Yes, he said; there lies the difficulty. ~
1856 4    |                Good. ~For example, I said, can the same thing be at
1857 4    |                Impossible. ~Still, I said, let us have a more precise
1858 4    |             way of thinking. ~Yet, I said, that we may not be compelled
1859 4    |         shall be withdrawn. ~Yes, he said, that will be the best way. ~
1860 4    |            be the best way. ~Well, I said, would you not allow that
1861 4    |          their opposition)? ~Yes, he said, they are opposites. ~Well,
1862 4    |              are opposites. ~Well, I said, and hunger and thirst,
1863 4    |           Let us take that class, he said. ~The object of one is food,
1864 4    |          food is of hunger? ~Yes, he said; the simple desire is, as
1865 4    |             is to be? ~Certainly, he said. ~And so of more or less,
1866 4    |           original meaning in what I said about relatives. My meaning
1867 4    |         unwilling to drink? ~Yes, he said, it constantly happens. ~
1868 4    |              satisfactions? ~Yes, he said, we may fairly assume them
1869 4    |         say-akin to desire. ~Well, I said, there is a story which
1870 4    |           heard the story myself, he said. ~The moral of the tale
1871 4    |              that is the meaning, he said. ~And are there not many
1872 4    |           excited by them. ~True, he said. ~But when he thinks that
1873 4    |            shepherds. ~I perceive, I said, that you quite understand
1874 4    |        auxiliary of reason? ~Yes, he said, there must be a third. ~
1875 4    |           late enough. ~Excellent, I said, and you may see passion
1876 4    |        rebuked by it. ~Very true, he said. ~And so, after much tossing,
1877 4    |         likely to have forgotten, he said. ~We must recollect that
1878 4    |            do his own work? ~Yes, he said, we must remember that too. ~
1879 4    |              rhythm? ~Quite true, he said. ~And these two, thus nurtured
1880 4    |          life of man? ~Very true, he said. ~Both together will they
1881 4    |            not rebel? ~Certainly, he said, that is the true account
1882 4    |           individual. ~And surely, I said, we have explained again
1883 4    |        difference, in my opinion, he said. ~Because, if any doubt
1884 4    |              it ignorance. ~You have said the exact truth, Socrates. ~
1885 4    |           Let us say so. ~And now, I said, injustice has to be considered. ~
1886 4    |         clear? ~What do you mean? he said. ~Why, I said, they are
1887 4    |           you mean? he said. ~Why, I said, they are like disease and
1888 4    |             in the body. ~How so? he said. ~Why, I said, that which
1889 4    |             How so? he said. ~Why, I said, that which is healthy causes
1890 4    |       natural order? ~Exactly so, he said. ~Then virtue is the health,
1891 4    |              have described? ~Yes, I said, the question is, as you
1892 4    |          replied. ~Come up hither, I said, and behold the various
1893 4    |              he replied: proceed. ~I said: The argument seems to have
1894 4    |          note. ~What do you mean? he said. ~I mean, I replied, that
1895 4    |              and five of the soul, I said. ~What are they? ~The first,
1896 4    |              are they? ~The first, I said, is that which we have been
1897 4    |         describing, and which may be said to have two names, monarchy
1898 5    |            forms. ~What are they? he said. ~I was proceeding to tell
1899 5    |              we do?" ~Certainly not, said Adeimantus, raising his
1900 5    |             his voice. ~Who is it, I said, whom you are refusing to
1901 5    |        refusing to let off? ~You, he said. ~I repeated, Why am I especially
1902 5    |              to be let off? ~Why, he said, we think that you are lazy,
1903 5    |          right, Adeimantus? ~Yes, he said; but what is right in this
1904 5    |           this. ~To that resolution, said Glaucon, you may regard
1905 5    |                And without more ado, said Thrasymachus, you may consider
1906 5    |             to be equally agreed. ~I said, You know not what you are
1907 5    |            acceptance of what I then said, you ask me to begin again
1908 5    |              that we have come here, said Thrasymachus-to look for
1909 5    |             a limit. ~Yes, Socrates, said Glaucon, and the whole of
1910 5    |            practicability of what is said may be doubted; and looked
1911 5    |             sceptical or hostile. ~I said: My good friend, I suppose
1912 5    |             by these words. ~Yes, he said. ~Then let me tell you that
1913 5    |             me. ~Glaucon laughed and said: Well, then, Socrates, in
1914 5    |             then and speak. ~Well, I said, the law says that when
1915 5    |              I perhaps ought to have said before in the proper place.
1916 5    |          originally started, when we said that the men were to be
1917 5    |            the form of a question, I said: Are dogs divided into he'
1918 5    |             enough for them? ~No, he said, they share alike; the only
1919 5    |              should rather expect, I said, that several of our proposals,
1920 5    |           gymnasia. ~Yes, indeed, he said: according to present notions
1921 5    |             ridiculous. ~But then, I said, as we have determined to
1922 5    |             undefended. ~Why not? he said. ~Then let us put a speech
1923 5    |           and children. ~By Zeus, he said, the problem to be solved
1924 5    |       anything but easy. Why, yes, I said, but the fact is that when
1925 5    |           save us? ~I suppose so, he said. Well, then, let us see
1926 5    |       Precisely. ~Verily, Glaucon, I said, glorious is the power of
1927 5    |           same natures. ~Why, no, he said, that was never considered
1928 5    |           never considered by us. ~I said: Suppose that by way of
1929 5    |             That would be a jest, he said. ~Yes, I said, a jest; and
1930 5    |             a jest, he said. ~Yes, I said, a jest; and why? because
1931 5    |              mind a physician may be said to have the same nature. ~
1932 5    |                Certainly. ~And if, I said, the male and female sex
1933 5    |             pursuits. ~Very true, he said. ~Next, we shall ask our
1934 5    |              And if so, my friend, I said, there is no special faculty
1935 5    |            you have escaped. ~Yes, I said, but a greater is coming;
1936 5    |              let me see. ~The law, I said, which is the sequel of
1937 5    |          child his parent." ~Yes, he said, that is a much greater
1938 5    |     questionable. ~I do not think, I said, that there can be any dispute
1939 5    |            defence of both. ~Well, I said, I submit to my fate. Yet
1940 5    |             care. ~That is right, he said. ~You, I said, who are their
1941 5    |              right, he said. ~You, I said, who are their legislator,
1942 5    |              word, I think? ~Yes, he said; necessity, not geometrical,
1943 5    |            mass of mankind. ~True, I said; and this, Glaucon, like
1944 5    |         rulers will forbid. ~Yes, he said, and it ought not to be
1945 5    |           heavens! my dear friend, I said, what consummate skill will
1946 5    |        particular skill? ~Because, I said, our rulers will often have
1947 5    |               That is quite true, he said; but to what are you alluding? ~
1948 5    |             births. ~How so? ~Why, I said, the principle has been
1949 5    |              rulers. ~To be sure, he said. ~And I think that our braver
1950 5    |             they should be. ~Yes, he said, that must be done if the
1951 5    |           are having children. ~Why, said I, and so they ought. Let
1952 5    |              to include? ~A woman, I said, at twenty years of age
1953 5    |           fifty-five. ~Certainly, he said, both in men and women those
1954 5    |            public hymeneals shall be said to have done an unholy and
1955 5    |          accordingly. ~That also, he said, is a reasonable proposition.
1956 5    |            sorrow with him? ~Yes, he said, that is what will happen
1957 5    |               It will now be time, I said, for us to return to our
1958 5    |      connected with him. ~Capital, I said; but let me ask you once
1959 5    |           their kinsfolk? ~These, he said, and none other; for what
1960 5    |         necessity. ~That is good, he said. ~Yes; and there is a further
1961 5    |          worth speaking of. ~Yes, he said, a man has no need of eyes
1962 5    |                The Olympic victor, I said, is deemed happy in receiving
1963 5    |          burial. ~Do you remember, I said, how in the course of the
1964 5    |           here to repeat what I have said elsewhere, that if any of
1965 5    |         wisely Hesiod spoke, when he said, "half is more than the
1966 5    |             life. ~You agree then, I said, that men and women are
1967 5    |             replied. ~The inquiry, I said, has yet to be made, whether
1968 5    |            There is no difficulty, I said, in seeing how war will
1969 5    |           The idea is ridiculous, he said. ~There is also the effect
1970 5    |              never recover. ~True, I said; but would you never allow
1971 5    |        escape. ~What do you mean? he said. ~I mean that we must mount
1972 5    |       believe that you are right, he said. ~Next, as to war; what
1973 5    |          prize of valor. ~Capital, I said. That the brave man is to
1974 5    |  strengthening thing. ~Most true, he said. ~Then in this, I said,
1975 5    |            he said. ~Then in this, I said, Homer shall be our teacher;
1976 5    |       replied, is excellent. ~Yes, I said; and when a man dies gloriously
1977 5    |               That is very right, he said. ~Next, how shall our soldiers
1978 5    |              observe. ~Certainly, he said; they will in this way be
1979 5    |              ought the conquerors, I said, to take anything but their
1980 5    |        instead? ~Very like a dog, he said. ~Then we must abstain from
1981 5    |              I have the pleasure, he said, of hearing your opinion? ~
1982 5    |           barbarians? ~Very good, he said. ~And therefore when Hellenes
1983 5    |             agree. ~Consider then, I said, when that which we have
1984 5    |           fighting forever. ~Yes, he said, that is a better temper
1985 5    |           satisfaction? ~I agree, he said, that our citizens should
1986 5    |     instantly make a raid upon me, I said, and have no mercy; I have
1987 5    |              sort which you make, he said, the more determined are
1988 5    |             exist in fact. ~True, he said. ~Would a painter be any
1989 5    |       replied. ~That is the truth, I said. But if, at your request,
1990 5    |              he replied. ~I think, I said, that there might be a reform
1991 5    |        possible one. ~What is it? he said. ~Now then, I said, I go
1992 5    |            it? he said. ~Now then, I said, I go to meet that which
1993 5    |          mark my words. ~Proceed. ~I said: "Until philosophers are
1994 5    |            got me into the scrape, I said. ~And I was quite right;
1995 5    |            right. ~I ought to try, I said, since you offer me such
1996 5    |             now for a definition, he said. ~Follow me, I said, and
1997 5    |               he said. ~Follow me, I said, and I hope that I may in
1998 5    |           memory. ~Another person, I said, might fairly reply as you
1999 5    |            is not hungry, and may be said to have a bad appetite and
2000 5    |             good one? ~Very true, he said. ~Whereas he who has a taste