(...) The Republic
     Book
2001 5    |             Am I not right? ~Glaucon said: If curiosity makes a philosopher,
2002 5    |           are only an imitation. ~He said: Who then are the true philosophers? ~
2003 5    |              philosophers? ~Those, I said, who are lovers of the vision
2004 5    |                That is also good, he said; but I should like to know
2005 5    |             you distinguish them? he said. ~The lovers of sounds and
2006 5    |              faculty? ~Certainly, he said; for opinion is that with
2007 5    |            as opinion? ~Why, yes, he said: how can any reasonable
2008 5    |         excellent answer, proving, I said, that we are quite conscious
2009 5    |          being, knowledge? ~True, he said. ~Then opinion is not concerned
2010 5    |        called by particular names be said to be this rather than not
2011 5    |             will you do with them? I said. Can they have a better
2012 5    |               That is quite true, he said. ~Thus then we seem to have
2013 5    |             like-such persons may be said to have opinion but not
2014 5    |         eternal and immutable may be said to know, and not to have
2015 6    |            view. ~I do not think, he said, that the way could have
2016 6    |         shortened. ~I suppose not, I said; and yet I believe that
2017 6    |       question? he asked. ~Surely, I said, the one which follows next
2018 6    |               Very good. ~Neither, I said, can there be any question
2019 6    |           There can be no reason, he said, for rejecting those who
2020 6    |            respect. Suppose, then, I said, that we determine how far
2021 6    |              Agreed. ~And further, I said, let us agree that they
2022 6    |           willing to renounce; as we said before of the lover and
2023 6    |           his affections. ~Right, he said. ~And is there anything
2024 6    |              of jealousy himself, he said, could find no fault with
2025 6    |               And to men like him, I said, when perfected by years
2026 6    |            Adeimantus interposed and said: To these statements, Socrates,
2027 6    |                You ask a question, I said, to which a reply can only
2028 6    |              suppose. ~I perceive, I said, that you are vastly amused
2029 6    |        good-for-nothing? ~Of course, said Adeimantus. ~Then you will
2030 6    |              you will hardly need, I said, to hear the interpretation
2031 6    |       star-gazers. ~Precisely so, he said. ~For these reasons, and
2032 6    |           philosophy. ~Yes, that was said. ~Well, and is not this
2033 6    |       notions of him? ~Certainly, he said. ~And have we not a right
2034 6    |            his travail. ~Nothing, he said, can be more just than such
2035 6    |           one could deny what I then said, still, if you leave words
2036 6    |           speaking of those who were said to be useless but not wicked-and,
2037 6    |            are these corruptions? he said. ~I will see if I can explain
2038 6    |              the truth as a whole, I said, and in the right way; you
2039 6    |             do so? he asked. ~Why, I said, we know that all germs
2040 6    |             is this accomplished? he said. ~When they meet together,
2041 6    |          some things which are being said or done, and blame other
2042 6    |              compel him. ~And yet, I said, there is a still greater
2043 6    |              replied. ~No, indeed, I said, even to make the attempt
2044 6    |          mental ones? ~Certainly, he said. ~And his friends and fellow-citizens
2045 6    |               That often happens, he said. ~And what will a man such
2046 6    |                That is most true, he said. ~And so philosophy is left
2047 6    |             else would you expect, I said, when you think of the puny
2048 6    |           true wisdom? ~No doubt, he said. ~Then, Adeimantus, I said,
2049 6    |           said. ~Then, Adeimantus, I said, the worthy disciples of
2050 6    |          with bright hopes. ~Yes, he said, and he will have done a
2051 6    |             her. ~Not any of them, I said; and that is precisely the
2052 6    |          What that State is: ~No, he said; there you are wrong, for
2053 6    |             down the laws. ~That was said, he replied. ~Yes, but not
2054 6    |               as men say. ~Still, he said, let the point be cleared
2055 6    |             shall not be hindered, I said, by any want of will, but,
2056 6    |          what manner? ~At present, I said, the students of philosophy
2057 6    |        earnest you are, Socrates! he said; I am sure of that; and
2058 6    |             Do not make a quarrel, I said, between Thrasymachus and
2059 6    |               They are strangers, he said, to the words of which you
2060 6    |        opinion agrees with yours, he said. ~But do you mean to say
2061 6    |            replied. ~O my friends, I said, do not attack the multitude:
2062 6    |             quite agree with you, he said. ~And do you not also think,
2063 6    |         angry if they understand, he said. But how will they draw
2064 6    |          They will be very right, he said. ~Having effected this,
2065 6    |      likeness of God. ~Very true, he said. ~And one feature they will
2066 6    |             ways of God? ~Indeed, he said, in no way could they make
2067 6    |          fairer picture. ~And now, I said, are we beginning to persuade
2068 6    |             terms? ~By all means, he said. ~Then let us suppose that
2069 6    |     philosophers? ~Surely no man, he said. ~And when they have come
2070 6    |             this? ~Who indeed! ~But, said I, one is enough; let there
2071 6    |             of thing which was being said, and then the argument turned
2072 6    |             I perfectly remember, he said. ~Yes, my friend, I said,
2073 6    |             said. ~Yes, my friend, I said, and I then shrank from
2074 6    |              a philosopher. ~Yes, he said, let that be affirmed. ~
2075 6    |       patches. ~What do you mean? he said. ~You are aware, I replied,
2076 6    |              of them. ~Very true, he said. ~On the other hand, those
2077 6    |              command. ~Certainly, he said. ~And will they be a class
2078 6    |              and exercises. ~Yes, he said, you are quite right in
2079 6    |      knowledge? ~You may remember, I said, that we divided the soul
2080 6    |              and wisdom? ~Indeed, he said, if I had forgotten, I should
2081 6    |             for you to say. ~Yes, he said, I thought and the others
2082 6    |            truth. ~But, my friend, I said, a measure of such things
2083 6    |         people are indolent. ~Yes, I said; and there cannot be any
2084 6    |          True. ~The guardian then, I said, must be required to take
2085 6    |            proper calling. ~What, he said, is there a knowledge still
2086 6    |           the other virtues? ~Yes, I said, there is. And of the virtues
2087 6    |           highest knowledge? ~Nay, I said, ask if you will; but I
2088 6    |              How ridiculous! ~Yes, I said, that they should begin
2089 6    |           ridiculous. ~Most true, he said. ~And those who make pleasure
2090 6    |             everyone. ~Very true, he said. ~Of this then, which every
2091 6    |        ignorance? ~Certainly not, he said. ~I am sure, I said, that
2092 6    |               he said. ~I am sure, I said, that he who does not know
2093 6    |         knowledge of them. ~That, he said, is a shrewd suspicion of
2094 6    |       different from either? ~Aye, I said, I knew all along that a
2095 6    |              does not know? ~Not, he said, with the assurance of positive
2096 6    |               And do you not know, I said, that all mere opinions
2097 6    |          must implore you, Socrates, said Glaucon, not to turn away
2098 6    |               not. ~By all means, he said, tell us about the child,
2099 6    |             we can: proceed. ~Yes, I said, but I must first come to
2100 6    |          many" is implied. ~True, he said. ~And there is an absolute
2101 6    |       visible things? ~The sight, he said. ~And with the hearing,
2102 6    |              And with the hearing, I said, we hear, and with the other
2103 6    |     contrived? ~No, I never have, he said. ~Then reflect: has the
2104 6    |          light, I replied. ~True, he said. ~Noble, then, is the bond
2105 6    |              ignoble thing? ~Nay, he said, the reverse of ignoble. ~
2106 6    |            of ignoble. ~And which, I said, of the gods in heaven would
2107 6    |       recognized by sight? ~True, he said. ~And this is he whom I
2108 6    |             little more explicit? he said. ~Why, you know, I said,
2109 6    |              said. ~Why, you know, I said, that the eyes, when a person
2110 6    |         light and sight may be truly said to be like the sun, and
2111 6    |              beauty that must be, he said, which is the author of
2112 6    |          like manner the good may be said to be not only the author
2113 6    |          dignity and power. ~Glaucon said, with a ludicrous earnestness:
2114 6    |         heaven, how amazing! ~Yes, I said, and the exaggeration may
2115 6    |         there is anything more to be said about the similitude of
2116 6    |       similitude of the sun. ~Yes, I said, there is a great deal more. ~
2117 6    |        slight. ~I will do my best, I said; but I should think that
2118 6    |              omitted. I hope not, he said. ~You have to Imagine, then,
2119 6    |          understand your meaning, he said. ~Then I will try again;
2120 6    |           their conclusion? ~Yes, he said, I know. ~And do you not
2121 6    |             value. ~I understand, he said, that you are speaking of
2122 6    |              conceived my meaning, I said; and now, corresponding
2123 7    |      SOCRATES, GLAUCON.) ~AND now, I said, let me show in a figure
2124 7    |              see. ~And do you see, I said, men passing along the wall
2125 7    |          wall of the cave? ~True, he said; how could they see anything
2126 7    |            see the shadows? ~Yes, he said. ~And if they were able
2127 7    |              he replied. ~To them, I said, the truth would be literally
2128 7    |              shown to him? ~True, he said. ~And suppose once more,
2129 7    |              Not all in a moment, he said. ~He will require to grow
2130 7    |              to behold? ~Clearly, he said, he would first see the
2131 7    |         after their manner? ~Yes, he said, I think that he would rather
2132 7    |        manner. ~Imagine once more, I said, such a one coming suddenly
2133 7    |            darkness? ~To be sure, he said. ~And if there were a contest,
2134 7    |              death. ~No question, he said. ~This entire allegory,
2135 7    |              This entire allegory, I said, you may now append, dear
2136 7    |              eye fixed. ~I agree, he said, as far as I am able to
2137 7    |         understand you. ~Moreover, I said, you must not wonder that
2138 7    |              into the den. ~That, he said, is a very just distinction. ~
2139 7    |             from the truth? ~Yes, he said, such an art may be presumed. ~
2140 7    |           cleverness? ~Very true, he said. ~But what if there had
2141 7    |           now. ~Very likely. ~Yes, I said; and there is another thing
2142 7    |           true, he replied. ~Then, I said, the business of us who
2143 7    |           But is not this unjust? he said; ought we to give them a
2144 7    |              forgotten, my friend, I said, the intention of the legislator,
2145 7    |              up the State. ~True, he said, I had forgotten. ~Observe,
2146 7    |            State. ~Yes, my friend, I said; and there lies the point.
2147 7    |         other? ~Indeed, I do not, he said. ~And those who govern ought
2148 7    |        darkness to light-as some are said to have ascended from the
2149 7    |             replied. ~The process, I said, is not the turning over
2150 7    |             athletes? ~Yes, that was said. ~Then this new kind of
2151 7    |            former scheme? ~Music, he said, as you will remember, was
2152 7    |             You are most accurate, I said, in your recollection; in
2153 7    |               what remains? ~Well, I said, there may be nothing left
2154 7    |             explain your meaning? he said. ~I will try, I said; and
2155 7    |              he said. ~I will try, I said; and I wish you would share
2156 7    |            one of them. ~Explain, he said. ~I mean to say that objects
2157 7    |            are clearly referring, he said, to the manner in which
2158 7    |              light and shade. ~No, I said, that is not at all my meaning. ~
2159 7    |              True. ~And therefore, I said, as we might expect, there
2160 7    |      intelligence. ~There is not, he said. ~But is this equally true
2161 7    |              You are quite right, he said. ~And must not the soul
2162 7    |            is heavy, light? ~Yes, he said, these intimations which
2163 7    |             to be explained. ~Yes, I said, and in these perplexities
2164 7    |            do not. ~I understand, he said, and agree with you. ~And
2165 7    |          true being. ~And surely, he said, this occurs notably in
2166 7    |       infinite in multitude? ~Yes, I said; and this being true of
2167 7    |                That is excellent, he said. ~Yes, I said, and now having
2168 7    |          excellent, he said. ~Yes, I said, and now having spoken of
2169 7    |            have been? ~Very true, he said. ~And indeed, you will not
2170 7    |             Exactly so. ~Clearly, he said, we are concerned with that
2171 7    |              a geometrician. ~Yes, I said, but for that purpose a
2172 7    |          means, to behold. ~True, he said. ~Then if geometry compels
2173 7    |              science. ~Certainly, he said. ~Then must not a further
2174 7    |             small. ~Of what kind? he said. ~There are the military
2175 7    |     advantages of which you spoke, I said; and in all departments
2176 7    |             has not. Yes, indeed, he said, there is an infinite difference
2177 7    |          strongly inclined to it, he said; the observation of the
2178 7    |              sailor. ~I am amused, I said, at your fear of the world,
2179 7    |             What was the mistake? he said. ~After plane geometry,
2180 7    |              After plane geometry, I said, we proceeded at once to
2181 7    |         these subjects. ~Why, yes, I said, and for two reasons: in
2182 7    |          emerge into light. ~Yes, he said, there is a remarkable charm
2183 7    |              plane surfaces? ~Yes, I said. ~And you placed astronomy
2184 7    |          motion of solids. ~True, he said. ~Then assuming that the
2185 7    |               Everyone but myself, I said; to everyone else this may
2186 7    |             back. ~I acknowledge, he said, the justice of your rebuke.
2187 7    |        speaking? ~I will tell you, I said: The starry heaven which
2188 7    |             of this before. ~Then, I said, in astronomy, as in geometry,
2189 7    |              any real use. ~That, he said, is a work infinitely beyond
2190 7    |         present astronomers. ~Yes, I said; and there are many other
2191 7    |              suitable study? ~No, he said, not without thinking. ~
2192 7    |         without thinking. ~Motion, I said, has many forms, and not
2193 7    |           two? ~There is a second, I said, which is the counterpart
2194 7    |              that be? ~The second, I said, would seem relatively to
2195 7    |             he replied. ~But this, I said, is a laborious study, and
2196 7    |            vain. ~Yes, by heaven! he said; and 'tis as good as a play
2197 7    |          understanding. ~You mean, I said, those gentlemen who tease
2198 7    |            and others not. ~That, he said, is a thing of more than
2199 7    |               useless. Very true, he said. ~Now, when all these studies
2200 7    |           work. ~What do you mean? I said; the prelude, or what? Do
2201 7    |     dialectician? ~Assuredly not, he said; I have hardly ever known
2202 7    |        supposed. ~And so, Glaucon, I said, we have at last arrived
2203 7    |            the visible. ~Exactly, he said. ~Then this is the progress
2204 7    |         final rest. ~Dear Glaucon, I said, you will not be able to
2205 7    |             science? ~Impossible, he said. ~Then dialectic, and dialectic
2206 7    |            consider? Why, indeed, he said, when any name will do which
2207 7    |              far as I understand, he said, I agree. ~And do you also
2208 7    |             And do you also agree, I said, in describing the dialectician
2209 7    |           may in that degree also be said to fail in intelligence?
2210 7    |              admit so much? ~Yes, he said; how can I deny it? ~And
2211 7    |        answering questions? ~Yes, he said, you and I together will
2212 7    |             further go? ~I agree, he said. ~But to whom we are to
2213 7    |            clearly. ~You remember, I said, how the rulers were chosen
2214 7    |        chosen before? ~Certainly, he said. ~The same natures must
2215 7    |       require of him. ~Certainly, he said; he must have natural gifts. ~
2216 7    |             lameness. ~Certainly, he said. ~And as to truth, I said,
2217 7    |            said. ~And as to truth, I said, is not a soul equally to
2218 7    |                That is very true, he said. ~All these things, then,
2219 7    |        creditable. ~Certainly not, I said; and yet perhaps, in thus
2220 7    |         respect? ~I had forgotten, I said, that we were not serious,
2221 7    |             under a delusion when he said that a man when he grows
2222 7    |              Then, my good friend, I said, do not use compulsion,
2223 7    |             very rational notion, he said. ~Do you remember that the
2224 7    |          practice may be followed, I said, in all these things -labors,
2225 7    |              to true being. ~Yes, he said, that is the only kind of
2226 7    |          takes lasting root. ~Yes, I said; and the capacity for such
2227 7    |   dialectical. ~I agree with you, he said. ~These, I said, are the
2228 7    |              you, he said. ~These, I said, are the points which you
2229 7    |       caution? ~Do you not remark, I said, how great is the evil which
2230 7    |           introduced? ~What evil? he said. ~The students of the art
2231 7    |         lawlessness. ~Quite true, he said. ~Do you think that there
2232 7    |            allowance? ~I want you, I said, by way of parallel, to
2233 7    |             most excusable. ~Yes, he said; and, I may add, pitiable. ~
2234 7    |             come near them. ~Yes, he said, there is nothing which
2235 7    |             the world. ~Too true, he said. ~But when a man begins
2236 7    |              pursuit. ~Very true, he said. ~And did we not make special
2237 7    |          provision for this, when we said that the disciples of philosophy
2238 7    |               Very true. ~Suppose, I said, the study of philosophy
2239 7    |         faultless in beauty. ~Yes, I said, Glaucon, and of our governesses
2240 7    |              There you are right, he said, since we have made them
2241 7    |        things like the men. ~Well, I said, and you would agree (would
2242 7    |             not?) that what has been said about the State and the
2243 7    |            that nothing more need be said. ~
2244 8    |           been acknowledged. ~Yes, I said; and we have further acknowledged
2245 8    |            the whole State. ~True, I said; and now that this division
2246 8    |        description of the State: you said that such a State was good,
2247 8    |            of State and man. And you said further, that if this was
2248 8    |              of the false forms, you said, as I remember, that there
2249 8    |       arrived. ~Your recollection, I said, is most exact. ~Then, like
2250 8    |             Yes, if I can, I will, I said. ~I shall particularly wish
2251 8    |          speaking. ~That question, I said, is easily answered: the
2252 8    |            constitution which can be said to have a distinct character.
2253 8    |          among them. ~Do you know, I said, that governments vary as
2254 8    |          things after them? ~Yes, he said, the States are as the men
2255 8    |            suitable. ~First, then, I said, let us inquire how timocracy (
2256 8    |             be moved. ~Very true, he said. ~In what way, then, will
2257 8    |           answer truly. ~Why, yes, I said, of course they answer truly;
2258 8    |             peculiarities. ~True, he said. ~In the honor given to
2259 8    |              peculiar. ~Yes. ~Yes, I said; and men of this stamp will
2260 8    |                That is most true, he said. ~And they are miserly because
2261 8    |              music. ~Undoubtedly, he said, the form of government
2262 8    |           Why, there is a mixture, I said; but one thing, and one
2263 8    |              element. ~Assuredly, he said. ~Such is the origin and
2264 8    |           what is he like? ~I think, said Adeimantus, that in the
2265 8    |          friend Glaucon. ~Perhaps, I said, he may be like him in that
2266 8    |             guardian. ~Who was that? said Adeimantus. ~Philosophy,
2267 8    |           Adeimantus. ~Philosophy, I said, tempered with music, who
2268 8    |           throughout life. ~Good, he said. ~Such, I said, is the timocratical
2269 8    |              Good, he said. ~Such, I said, is the timocratical youth,
2270 8    |            fond of rehearsing. ~Yes, said Adeimantus, they give us
2271 8    |         themselves. ~And you know, I said, that the old servants also,
2272 8    |      perfectly. ~Then we have now, I said, the second form of government
2273 8    |     oligarchy arises? ~Yes. ~Well, I said, no eyes are required in
2274 8    |             is established. ~Yes, he said; but what are the characteristics
2275 8    |           speaking? ~First of all, I said, consider the nature of
2276 8    |             include a city? ~Nay, he said, the case of a city is the
2277 8    |           discreditable! ~And, as we said before, under such a constitution
2278 8    |           are termed. ~Most true, he said. ~Clearly then, whenever
2279 8    |      malefactors. ~Clearly. ~Well, I said, and in oligarchical States
2280 8    |           not find paupers? ~Yes, he said; nearly everybody is a pauper
2281 8    |              it. ~Of all changes, he said, there is none so speedy
2282 8    |                And the avaricious, I said, is the oligarchical youth? ~
2283 8    |         oligarchical youth? ~Yes, he said; at any rate the individual
2284 8    |              a man of cultivation, I said. ~I imagine not, he said;
2285 8    |             said. ~I imagine not, he said; had he been educated he
2286 8    |           chief honor. ~Excellent! I said. Yet consider: Must we not
2287 8    |              for judgment. ~That, he said, is our method. ~Well, I
2288 8    |              is our method. ~Well, I said, and how does the change
2289 8    |        abound in the State. ~Yes, he said, there are plenty of them-that
2290 8    |             good for much"? ~Yes, he said, I am quite aware that this
2291 8    |             elected by lot. ~Yes, he said, that is the nature of democracy,
2292 8    |             be the man. ~Clearly, he said. ~In the first place, are
2293 8    |              do what he likes? ~'Tis said so, he replied. ~And where
2294 8    |          there being no necessity, I said, for you to govern in this
2295 8    |              many a one. See, too, I said, the forgiving spirit of
2296 8    |    foundation of the city-as when we said that, except in the case
2297 8    |           her well. ~Consider now, I said, what manner of man the
2298 8    |           into being. ~Very good, he said. ~Is not this the way-he
2299 8    |          order is restored. ~Yes, he said, that sometimes happens. ~
2300 8    |        fierce and numerous. ~Yes, he said, that is apt to be the way. ~
2301 8    |      unnecessary pleasures. ~Yes, he said, the change in him is visible
2302 8    |              equally. ~Very true, he said. ~Neither does he receive
2303 8    |            good as another. ~Yes, he said; that is the way with him. ~
2304 8    |            the way with him. ~Yes, I said, he lives from day to day
2305 8    |        liberty and equality. ~Yes, I said; his life is motley and
2306 8    |            Let that be his place, he said. ~Last of all comes the
2307 8    |            consider. ~Quite true, he said. ~Say then, my friend, in
2308 8    |           common occurrence. ~Yes, I said; and loyal citizens are
2309 8    |             good as either. ~Yes, he said, that is the way. ~And these
2310 8    |           the young. ~Quite true, he said. ~The last extreme of popular
2311 8    |              take a country walk, he said, I often experience what
2312 8    |             thing. ~And above all, I said, and as the result of all,
2313 8    |              one over them. ~Yes, he said, I know it too well. ~Such,
2314 8    |            well. ~Such, my friend, I said, is the fair and glorious
2315 8    |        tyranny. ~Glorious indeed, he said. But what is the next step? ~
2316 8    |             so, he replied. ~Well, I said, I meant to refer to the
2317 8    |                Yes, by all means, he said. ~Then, in order that we
2318 8    |              not suffer a word to be said on the other side; hence
2319 8    |           the drones. ~Very true, he said. ~Then there is another
2320 8    |              to the drones. ~Why, he said, there is little to be squeezed
2321 8    |             pretty much the case, he said. ~The people are a third
2322 8    |            in a democracy. ~True, he said; but then the multitude
2323 8    |             And do they not share? I said. Do not their leaders deprive
2324 8    |            themselves? ~Why, yes, he said, to that extent the people
2325 8    |              he does what the man is said to do in the tale of the
2326 8    |        tyrant? ~Inevitably. ~This, I said, is he who begins to make
2327 8    |            assassinate him. ~Yes, he said, that is their usual way. ~
2328 8    |             my friend, as the oracle said to Croesus, ~"By pebbly
2329 8    |                 And quite right too, said he, for if he were, he would
2330 8    |              absolute. ~No doubt, he said. ~And now let us consider
2331 8    |           him is generated. ~Yes, he said, let us consider that. ~
2332 8    |             everyone! ~Of course, he said. ~But when he has disposed
2333 8    |     purgation of the State. ~Yes, he said, and a rare purgation. ~
2334 8    |              rare purgation. ~Yes, I said, not the sort of purgation
2335 8    |             a blessed alternative, I said: to be compelled to dwell
2336 8    |           They will flock to him, he said, of their own accord, if
2337 8    |            pays them. ~By the dog! I said, here are more drones, of
2338 8    |            from every land. ~Yes, he said, there are. ~But will he
2339 8    |          body-guard. ~To be sure, he said; and he will be able to
2340 8    |           What a blessed creature, I said, must this tyrant be; he
2341 8    |            trusted friends. ~Yes, he said; they are quite of his sort. ~
2342 8    |           quite of his sort. ~Yes, I said, and these are the new citizens
2343 8    |             his companions. ~Yes, he said, and he also praises tyranny
2344 8    |          things of the same kind are said by him and by the other
2345 8    |             poets. ~And therefore, I said, the tragic poets being
2346 8    |       eulogists of tyranny. ~Yes, he said, those who have the wit
2347 8    |   ever-changing army of his. ~If, he said, there are sacred treasures
2348 8    |              fail? ~Why, clearly, he said, then he and his boon companions,
2349 8    |             his companions? ~Yes, he said; they cannot help themselves. ~
2350 8    |           associates. ~By heaven, he said, then the parent will discover
2351 8    |           form of slavery. ~True, he said. ~Very well; and may we
2352 8    |                Yes, quite enough, he said. ~
2353 9    |     happiness or in misery? ~Yes, he said, he is the only one remaining. ~
2354 9    |     remaining. ~There is, however, I said, a previous question which
2355 9    |        always be confused. ~Well, he said, it is not too late to supply
2356 9    |              omission. ~Very true, I said; and observe the point which
2357 9    |            to commit. ~Most true, he said. ~But when a man's pulse
2358 9    |            of the oligarch? ~Yes, he said; that was our view of him,
2359 9    |             is so still. ~And now, I said, years will have passed
2360 9    |    adequately describe him. ~Yes, he said, that is the only adequate
2361 9    |        madness to the full. ~Yes, he said, that is the way in which
2362 9    |              not wonder. ~Further, I said, has not a drunken man also
2363 9    |            to tell me. ~I imagine, I said, at the next step in his
2364 9    |           many. ~They are indeed, he said. ~His revenues, if he has
2365 9    |      tyrannizing over them? ~Nay, he said, I should not feel at all
2366 9    |      indispensable? ~Yes, indeed, he said; I believe that he would. ~
2367 9    |            he would. ~Truly, then, I said, a tyrannical son is a blessing
2368 9    |            of life? ~Yes, indeed, he said. ~And if there are only
2369 9    |           are few in number. ~Yes, I said; but small and great are
2370 9    |        create their tyrant. ~Yes, he said, and he will be the most
2371 9    |          notion of justice? ~Yes, he said, and we were perfectly right. ~
2372 9    |            then, sum up in a word, I said, the character of the worst
2373 9    |           becomes. ~That is certain, said Glaucon, taking his turn
2374 9    |             men in general? ~Yes, he said, inevitably. ~And must not
2375 9    |            the opposite extremes, he said, for one is the very best
2376 9    |           There can be no mistake, I said, as to which is which, and
2377 9    |           other men? ~That again, he said, is a very fair proposal. ~
2378 9    |            or enslaved? ~No city, he said, can be more completely
2379 9    |            in such a State? ~Yes, he said, I see that there are-a
2380 9    |             man is like the State, I said, must not the same rule
2381 9    |         States? ~And I was right, he said. ~Certainly, I said. And
2382 9    |               he said. ~Certainly, I said. And when you see the same
2383 9    |      miserable of all men. ~There, I said, I think that you are beginning
2384 9    |          tyrant. ~From what has been said, I gather that you are right. ~
2385 9    |             greatest. ~Very true, he said. ~Let me then offer you
2386 9    |            individual. ~Very true, I said. But imagine one of these
2387 9    |              by his slaves? ~Yes, he said, he will be in the utmost
2388 9    |           his own servants. ~Yes, he said, that will be the only way
2389 9    |             interest. ~Very true, he said. ~And amid evils such as
2390 9    |             with other men. ~Yes, he said, the similitude is most
2391 9    |    resemblance holds? ~Very true, he said. ~Moreover, as we were saying
2392 9    |            your words. Come, then, I said, and as the general umpire
2393 9    |            proclamation yourself, he said. ~And shall I add, "whether
2394 9    |              be added. ~Then this, I said, will be our first proof;
2395 9    |         powers. ~How do you mean? he said. ~There is one principle
2396 9    |             money. ~That is true, he said. ~If we were to say that
2397 9    |           gold and silver? ~True, he said. ~And the lover of honor-what
2398 9    |             And are we to suppose, I said, that the philosopher sets
2399 9    |             I cannot myself tell, he said. ~Well, but what ought to
2400 9    |         There cannot be a better, he said. ~Then, I said, reflect.
2401 9    |            better, he said. ~Then, I said, reflect. Of the three individuals,
2402 9    |        pleasures of wisdom? ~Nay, he said, all three are honored in
2403 9    |            life. ~Unquestionably, he said, the wise man speaks with
2404 9    |              of gain? ~Very true, he said. ~Twice in succession, then,
2405 9    |           were ill. ~Yes, I know, he said. ~And when persons are suffering
2406 9    |          greatest pleasure? ~Yes, he said; at the time they are pleased
2407 9    |              painful? ~Doubtless, he said. ~Then the intermediate
2408 9    |         pleasure. ~What are they, he said, and where shall I find
2409 9    |          behind them. ~Most true, he said. ~Let us not, then, be induced
2410 9    |            hear. ~You would allow, I said, that there is in nature
2411 9    |         upper world? ~To be sure, he said; how can he think otherwise? ~
2412 9    |      incontinent. ~Verily, Socrates, said Glaucon, you describe the
2413 9    |            reason or sense? ~Yes, he said, the same will happen with
2414 9    |            do you mean? ~I assume, I said, that the tyrant is in the
2415 9    |            Yet a true calculation, I said, and a number which nearly
2416 9    |           months and years. ~Yes, he said, human life is certainly
2417 9    |       Immeasurably greater. ~Well, I said, and now having arrived
2418 9    |              be just? ~Yes, that was said. Now, then, having determined
2419 9    |           more different natures are said to grow into one. ~There
2420 9    |            grow into one. ~There are said to have been such unions. ~
2421 9    |           than the second. ~That, he said, is an easier task; and
2422 9    |         creature. I have done so, he said. ~And now, to him who maintains
2423 9    |              another. ~Certainly, he said; that is what the approver
2424 9    |           and with himself. ~Yes, he said, that is quite what the
2425 9    |         compass a worse ruin." ~Yes, said Glaucon, far worse-I will
2426 9    |           become a monkey? ~True, he said. ~And why are mean employments
2427 9    |        friends and equals. ~True, he said. ~And this is clearly seen
2428 9    |              go their ways. ~Yes, he said, the purpose of the law
2429 9    |             the body. ~Certainly, he said. ~To this nobler purpose
2430 9    |       disregard others? ~Clearly, he said. ~In the next place, he
2431 9    |             harm? ~Certainly not, he said. ~He will look at the city
2432 9    |           any other. ~I think so, he said. ~
2433 10   |            speak out. ~Very good, he said. ~Listen to me, then, or,
2434 10   |           the keener. ~Very true, he said; but in your presence, even
2435 10   |              in the mirror. ~Yes, he said; but they would be appearances
2436 10   |      appearances only. ~Very good, I said, you are coming to the point
2437 10   |              creates a bed? ~Yes, he said, but not a real bed. ~And
2438 10   |           two others. ~Very true, he said. ~God knew this, and he
2439 10   |             to the bed? ~I think, he said, that we may fairly designate
2440 10   |            the others make. ~Good, I said; then you call him who is
2441 10   |             imitator? ~Certainly, he said. ~And the tragic poet is
2442 10   |              of all things. ~Yes, he said, the difference is only
2443 10   |    appearance. ~Then the imitator, I said, is a long way off the truth,
2444 10   |              well? ~The question, he said, should by all means be
2445 10   |              theme of them. ~Yes, he said, that would be to him a
2446 10   |           honor and profit. ~Then, I said, we must put a question
2447 10   |            might name? ~I think not, said Glaucon; not even the Homerids
2448 10   |             his stupidity, if, as is said, Homer was greatly neglected
2449 10   |             words and phrases may be said to lay on the colors of
2450 10   |            in simple prose. ~Yes, he said. ~They are like faces which
2451 10   |             seeking to arrive when I said that painting or drawing,
2452 10   |              poetry. ~Do not rely, I said, on a probability derived
2453 10   |                And we were right, he said. ~Yes, I said, thus far
2454 10   |              right, he said. ~Yes, I said, thus far we were right;
2455 10   |              sorrow? ~The latter, he said, is the truer statement. ~
2456 10   |            the healing art. ~Yes, he said, that is the true way of
2457 10   |          attacks of fortune. ~Yes, I said; and the higher principle
2458 10   |              a woman. ~Very true, he said. ~Now can we be right in
2459 10   |              his own person? ~No, he said, that is certainly not reasonable. ~
2460 10   |              not reasonable. ~Nay, I said, quite reasonable from one
2461 10   |            view? ~If you consider, I said, that when in misfortune
2462 10   |             at home. ~Quite true, he said. ~And the same may be said
2463 10   |           said. ~And the same may be said of lust and anger and all
2464 10   |                Therefore, Glaucon, I said, whenever you meet with
2465 10   |                That is most true, he said. ~And now since we have
2466 10   |              delight? ~Certainly, he said, we shall be the gainers. ~
2467 10   |              words his law. ~Yes, he said, I quite agree with you. ~
2468 10   |              agree with you. ~Yes, I said, my dear Glaucon, for great
2469 10   |         justice and virtue? ~Yes, he said; I have been convinced by
2470 10   |     inconceivable greatness. ~Why, I said, what was ever great in
2471 10   |           ask? ~Are you not aware, I said, that the soul of man is
2472 10   |              me in astonishment, and said: No, by heaven: And are
2473 10   |            to maintain this? ~Yes, I said, I ought to be, and you
2474 10   |           evil and disease? ~Yes, he said. ~And anything which is
2475 10   |             may be assumed. ~Well, I said, and is there no evil which
2476 10   |          corrupts the soul? ~Yes, he said, there are all the evils
2477 10   |           Certainly not. ~And yet, I said, it is unreasonable to suppose
2478 10   |             he replied. ~Consider, I said, Glaucon, that even the
2479 10   |         belongs to another? ~Yes, he said, there is reason in that.
2480 10   |             of their deeds? ~Nay, he said, in that case injustice,
2481 10   |             house of death. ~True, I said; if the inherent natural
2482 10   |            That is the conclusion, I said; and, if a true conclusion,
2483 10   | dissimilarity. ~What do you mean? he said. ~The soul, I said, being,
2484 10   |          mean? he said. ~The soul, I said, being, as is now proven,
2485 10   |             I think that we have now said enough. ~True, he replied. ~
2486 10   |             he replied. ~And thus, I said, we have fulfilled the conditions
2487 10   |            death. ~Certainly not, he said. ~Will you repay me, then,
2488 10   |             her own. ~The demand, he said, is just. ~In the first
2489 10   |          pursuit of virtue? ~Yes, he said; if he is like God he will
2490 10   |              they will; all that you said of the others I now say
2491 10   |             are true? ~Certainly, he said, what you say is true. ~
2492 10   |           herself provides. ~Yes, he said; and they are fair and lasting. ~
2493 10   |             and lasting. ~And yet, I said, all these are as nothing
2494 10   |             owes to them. ~Speak, he said; there are few things which
2495 10   |           more gladly hear. ~Well, I said, I will tell you a tale;
2496 10   |          seen in the other world. He said that when his soul left
2497 10   |             but the sum was this: He said that for every wrong which
2498 10   |           need hardly repeat what he said concerning young children
2499 10   |           his elder brother, and was said to have committed many other
2500 10   |          will never come." And this, said he, was one of the dreadful