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Alphabetical [« »] athena 2 athenaeus 4 athene 35 athenian 999 athenians 125 athens 147 athlete 3 | Frequency [« »] 1022 yet 1017 because 1005 cannot 999 athenian 998 make 987 either 983 just | Plato Partial collection IntraText - Concordances athenian |
The Apology Part
1 Intro | confusion about Anaxagoras; the Athenian people are not so ignorant 2 Intro | He, the benefactor of the Athenian people, whose whole life 3 Intro | would rebuke and exhort the Athenian people in harsher and more 4 Intro | odious in the eyes of the Athenian public.~ 5 Text | improve them.~Then every Athenian improves and elevates them; Charmides Part
6 PreS | as the comparison of the Athenian empire to the empire of 7 PreS(8)| of Plato with Spartan and Athenian Laws and Institutions.~ 8 Intro | the name of the latter in Athenian history. He is simply a 9 Text | could easily point out two Athenian houses, whose union would Cratylus Part
10 Intro | Cratylus were to say, Hail, Athenian Stranger, Hermogenes! would 11 Intro | Compare Plato, Laws):—~‘ATHENIAN STRANGER: And what then 12 Intro | CLEINIAS: What do you mean?~ATHENIAN STRANGER: I mean that he 13 Intro | ages.~CLEINIAS: How so?~ATHENIAN STRANGER: Why, do you think 14 Intro | them?~CLEINIAS: Hardly.~ATHENIAN STRANGER: But you are quite 15 Intro | incalculable?~CLEINIAS: No doubt.~ATHENIAN STRANGER: And have there 16 Text | whom you, Socrates, as an Athenian, will surely not forget; 17 Text | your hand and say: ‘Hail, Athenian stranger, Hermogenes, son Critias Part
18 Intro | number of the primitive Athenian citizens (20,000), ‘which 19 Intro | prefixed the most detested of Athenian names to this dialogue, Crito Part
20 Intro | Thessaly, and deprives them of Athenian citizenship? Or if he leaves 21 Text | further proclaim to any Athenian by the liberty which we 22 Text | Thessaly and deprive them of Athenian citizenship? Is this the Euthydemus Part
23 Text | he said; you are not an Athenian at all if you have no ancestral Euthyphro Part
24 Intro | of Euthyphro, a learned Athenian diviner and soothsayer, 25 Intro | also the feeling of the Athenian diviner. He had not as yet The First Alcibiades Part
26 Pre | over the gloomier events of Athenian history. It exhibits an 27 Intro | he is no worse than other Athenian statesmen; and he will not 28 Intro | and Protagoras, that great Athenian statesmen, like Pericles, 29 Text | you will come before the Athenian assembly, and will prove 30 Text | you going to get up in the Athenian assembly, and give them 31 Text | is not expedient for the Athenian people, and simply request 32 Text | you ever hear of any other Athenian or foreigner, bond or free, 33 Text | about that of any other Athenian, unless he has a lover who 34 Text | The affairs which occupy Athenian gentlemen.~SOCRATES: And 35 Text | spoiled and deformed by the Athenian people; for the danger which 36 Text | spoiled by them. Many a noble Athenian has been ruined in this Gorgias Part
37 Intro | world, and an accomplished Athenian gentleman. He might be described 38 Intro | other men of the world; the Athenian statesmen of a former generation, 39 Intro | beloved of Callicles are the Athenian Demos and Demos the son 40 Intro | influence either with the Athenian Demos or with Demos the 41 Text | argument nearly every one, Athenian and stranger alike, would 42 Text | Pericles, or any other great Athenian family whom you choose;— 43 Text | philosophy; and you of the Athenian Demus, and of Demus the 44 Text | backwards and forwards. When the Athenian Demus denies anything that 45 Text | rhetoric which addresses the Athenian assembly and the assemblies 46 Text | like as possible to the Athenian people, if you mean to be 47 Text | true natural friend of the Athenian Demus, aye, or of Pyrilampes’ 48 Text | said already, that in the Athenian State no one has ever shown 49 Text | do not know that in the Athenian State any man may suffer 50 Text | only or almost the only Athenian living who practises the Laches Part
51 Intro | does not like to see an Athenian statesman and general descending Laws Book
52 1 | PERSONS OF THE DIALOGUE: An ATHENIAN STRANGER; CLEINIAS, a Cretan; 53 1 | MEGILLUS, a Lacedaemonian~Athenian Stranger. Tell me, Strangers, 54 1 | Megillus?~Megillus. Certainly.~Athenian. And do you, Cleinias, believe, 55 1 | justice when he was alive.~Athenian. Yes, and a noble reputation 56 1 | may repose and converse.~Athenian. Very good.~Cleinias. Very 57 1 | let us move on cheerily.~Athenian. I am willing—And first, 58 1 | hands of the conquerors.~Athenian. You appear to me, Stranger, 59 1 | Lacedaemonian say anything else?~Athenian. And is what you say applicable 60 1 | Cleinias. To both alike.~Athenian. The case is the same?~Cleinias. 61 1 | the same?~Cleinias. Yes.~Athenian. And in the village will 62 1 | individual?~Cleinias. The same.~Athenian. And should each man conceive 63 1 | shall we say?~Cleinias. O Athenian Stranger—inhabitant of Attica 64 1 | within every one of us.~Athenian. Let us now reverse the 65 1 | or inferiority to self?~Athenian. Yes.~Cleinias. You are 66 1 | censured in the opposite case.~Athenian. Whether the better is ever 67 1 | cannot possibly deny it.~Athenian. Here is another case for 68 1 | Cleinias. Very possibly.~Athenian. And you and I ought not 69 1 | as far as we have gone.~Athenian. Again; might there not 70 1 | speaking?~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. Now, which would be the 71 1 | of judge and legislator.~Athenian. And yet the aim of all 72 1 | war.~Cleinias. Very true.~Athenian. And will he who constitutes 73 1 | latter chiefly in view.~Athenian. And would he prefer that 74 1 | the case of his own state.~Athenian. And would not that also 75 1 | legislator?~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. And would not every one 76 1 | best?~Cleinias. To be sure.~Athenian. But war, whether external 77 1 | also of the Lacedaemonian.~Athenian. I dare say; but there is 78 1 | put forward Tyrtaeus, an Athenian by birth, but also a Spartan 79 1 | from Lacedaemon to Crete.~Athenian. Come now and let us all 80 1 | Certainly, far milder.~Athenian. Well, now, when you praise 81 1 | this.~Cleinias. Evidently.~Athenian. They are good; but we say 82 1 | which is far beneath him.~Athenian. Nay, I think that we degrade 83 1 | What ought we to say then?~Athenian. What truth and what justice 84 1 | Cleinias. By all means.~Athenian. You ought to have said, 85 1 | shall we proceed, Stranger?~Athenian. I think that we must begin 86 1 | Zeus and the laws of Crete.~Athenian. I will try to criticize 87 1 | view to war?~Megillus. Yes.~Athenian. And what comes third, and 88 1 | hunting is third in order.~Athenian. Let us see if we can discover 89 1 | detail would be endless.~Athenian. Excellent, O Lacedaemonian 90 1 | I should say the latter.~Athenian. In what preceded, as you 91 1 | Cleinias?~Cleinias. I was.~Athenian. Now, which is in the truest 92 1 | who is overcome by pain.~Athenian. But surely the lawgivers 93 1 | meet both, I should say.~Athenian. Then let me once more ask, 94 1 | prominent in the Cretan laws.~Athenian. No wonder, my dear friends; 95 1 | Cleinias. You are quite right, Athenian Stranger, and we will do 96 1 | and we will do as you say.~Athenian. At our time of life, Cleinias, 97 1 | Cleinias. Certainly not.~Athenian. I will not at present determine 98 1 | to say what is most true.~Athenian. As there are no young men 99 1 | be all the better for it.~Athenian. Very good; however, I am 100 1 | very childish and simple.~Athenian. Suppose, Cleinias and Megillus, 101 1 | temperance and courage.~Athenian. There seems to be a difficulty, 102 1 | the sort happens among us.~Athenian. O Lacedaemonian Stranger, 103 1 | In order to retaliate, an Athenian has only to point out the 104 1 | nations flying before us.~Athenian. Nay, my good friend, do 105 1 | Megillus. How do you mean?~Athenian. All those who are ready 106 1 | enquiry which is right.~Athenian. Let me put the matter thus:— 107 1 | Megillus. Certainly not.~Athenian. Does a captain require 108 1 | liable to sea–sickness.~Athenian. And what would you say 109 1 | fear?~Megillus. Impossible.~Athenian. And what if besides being 110 1 | but only of old women.~Athenian. And what would you say 111 1 | meeting when rightly ordered.~Athenian. Reflect; may not banqueters 112 1 | meeting?~Megillus. Of course.~Athenian. And did any one ever see 113 1 | wrong in such societies.~Athenian. Likely enough; then let 114 1 | Cleinias. Certainly I should.~Athenian. And we were saying just 115 1 | man?~Cleinias. We were.~Athenian. The brave man is less likely 116 1 | Cleinias. That again is true.~Athenian. And if there were a possibility 117 1 | him?~Cleinias. Assuredly.~Athenian. Now, however, we are speaking 118 1 | of peace.~Cleinias. True.~Athenian. And that sort of meeting, 119 1 | Certainly; the reverse of quiet.~Athenian. In the first place, then, 120 1 | be sure; no men more so.~Athenian. And we ought, if possible, 121 1 | ruler?~Cleinias. Of course.~Athenian. And he should be a man 122 1 | occasion.~Cleinias. Very true.~Athenian. Must we not appoint a sober 123 1 | fortune that he is saved.~Athenian. Now suppose such associations 124 1 | ordinance is duly established.~Athenian. If you mean to ask what 125 1 | important element of education.~Athenian. Certainly I do.~Cleinias. 126 1 | have been saying is true?~Athenian. To be absolutely sure of 127 1 | precisely what we want to hear.~Athenian. Very good; I will try to 128 1 | me make an apology. The Athenian citizen is reputed among 129 1 | question of law?~Megillus. O Athenian Stranger, let me tell you 130 1 | always like to hear the Athenian tongue spoken; the common 131 1 | quite true, that a good Athenian is more than ordinarily 132 1 | parents have had for you.~Athenian. You seem to be quite ready 133 1 | proceed, if you please.~Athenian. Well, then, if I tell you 134 1 | Cleinias. Let us hear.~Athenian. According to my view, any 135 1 | far?~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. Then let us not leave the 136 1 | entirely agree with you.~Athenian. And we agreed before that 137 1 | Cleinias. You are quite right.~Athenian. Let me now proceed, if 138 1 | you.~Cleinias. Proceed.~Athenian. Do we not consider each 139 1 | be one?~Cleinias. We do.~Athenian. And each one of us has 140 1 | pain.~Cleinias. Exactly.~Athenian. Also there are opinions 141 1 | I am in the like case.~Athenian. Let us look at the matter 142 1 | the length of discourse.~Athenian. Very good; let us proceed 143 1 | object.~Cleinias. Proceed.~Athenian. Suppose that we give this 144 1 | do you ask that question?~Athenian. Nothing as yet; but I ask 145 1 | Cleinias. Very greatly.~Athenian. And are perception and 146 1 | they entirely desert him.~Athenian. Does he not return to the 147 1 | child?~Cleinias. He does.~Athenian. Then at that time he will 148 1 | himself?~Cleinias. The least.~Athenian. And will he not be in a 149 1 | Cleinias. Most wretched.~Athenian. Then not only an old man 150 1 | Cleinias. Well said, Stranger.~Athenian. Is there any argument which 151 1 | maintain such a doctrine.~Athenian. True, I was; and I am ready 152 1 | into utter degradation.~Athenian. Are you speaking of the 153 1 | the soul?~Cleinias. Yes.~Athenian. And what would you say 154 1 | decrepitude?~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. Yet when a man goes of 155 1 | all that is well known.~Athenian. Also that they go of their 156 1 | benefit?~Cleinias. Very good.~Athenian. And we may conceive this 157 1 | practices?~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. And the same view may be 158 1 | follows?~Cleinias. To be sure.~Athenian. If such convivialities 159 1 | to be derived from them.~Athenian. That is just what we must 160 1 | Cleinias. What are they?~Athenian. There is the fear of expected 161 1 | expected evil.~Cleinias. Yes.~Athenian. And there is the fear of 162 1 | shame.~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. These are the two fears, 163 1 | pleasures.~Cleinias. Very true.~Athenian. And does not the legislator 164 1 | states.~Cleinias. True.~Athenian. Does not this kind of fear 165 1 | friends.~Cleinias. There are.~Athenian. Then each of us should 166 1 | determined.~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. And when we want to make 167 1 | fears.~Cleinias. Clearly.~Athenian. And when we want to make 168 1 | most unlikely supposition.~Athenian. Suppose that some God had 169 1 | really been known among men?~Athenian. No; but, if there had been, 170 1 | the answer of every one.~Athenian. “And you would rather have 171 1 | every one may safely agree.~Athenian. “And in order to make use 172 1 | Stranger, to use the potion.~Athenian. This would be a mode of 173 1 | equally show his self–control.~Athenian. Let us return to the lawgiver, 174 1 | that wine is such a potion.~Athenian. Is not the effect of this 175 1 | description.~Megillus. Certainly.~Athenian. Now, let us remember, as 176 1 | reverence, if I am not mistaken.~Athenian. Thank you for reminding 177 1 | That is probably the case.~Athenian. There are times and seasons 178 1 | is base.~Cleinias. True.~Athenian. Are not the moments in 179 1 | That is certainly true.~Athenian. And this knowledge of the 180 2 | BOOK II~Athenian Stranger. And now we have 181 2 | error.~Cleinias. Proceed.~Athenian. Let me once more recall 182 2 | You talk rather grandly.~Athenian. Pleasure and pain I maintain 183 2 | saying about education.~Athenian. I am glad to hear that 184 2 | say?~Cleinias. I assent.~Athenian. And the uneducated is he 185 2 | trained?~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. And the chorus is made 186 2 | and song?~Cleinias. True.~Athenian. Then he who is well educated 187 2 | I suppose that he will.~Athenian. Let us see; what are we 188 2 | saying?~Cleinias. What?~Athenian. He sings well and dances 189 2 | Let us make the addition.~Athenian. We will suppose that he 190 2 | two kinds of education.~Athenian. If we three know what is 191 2 | or not.~Cleinias. True.~Athenian. Let us follow the scent 192 2 | barbarian.~Cleinias. Yes.~Athenian. And what is beauty of figure, 193 2 | colours of their faces differ?~Athenian. Good, my friend; I may 194 2 | that these things are so.~Athenian. Once more, are all of us 195 2 | Cleinias. Far otherwise.~Athenian. What, then, leads us astray? 196 2 | delusion.~Cleinias. What?~Athenian. The adaptation of art to 197 2 | them.~Cleinias. Very true.~Athenian. And is any harm done to 198 2 | I think that there is.~Athenian. “I think” is not the word, 199 2 | Cleinias. I know of none.~Athenian. Then in a city which has 200 2 | is not to be thought of.~Athenian. And yet he may do this 201 2 | music and dancing in Egypt?~Athenian. You will wonder when I 202 2 | Cleinias. How extraordinary!~Athenian. I should rather say, How 203 2 | seem to prove your point.~Athenian. May we not confidently 204 2 | rejoice?~Cleinias. Exactly.~Athenian. And when rejoicing in our 205 2 | be still?~Cleinias. True.~Athenian. Our young men break forth 206 2 | youth.~Cleinias. Very true.~Athenian. Is it altogether unmeaning 207 2 | acting?~Cleinias. Possibly.~Athenian. But, my dear friend, let 208 2 | Cleinias. In what respect?~Athenian. There would be various 209 2 | the question is absurd.~Athenian. Well, then, if neither 210 2 | Cleinias. By all means.~Athenian. If very small children 211 2 | show.~Cleinias. Of course.~Athenian. The older children will 212 2 | Cleinias. Very likely.~Athenian. And I believe that we old 213 2 | question.~Cleinias. Yes.~Athenian. Clearly you and I will 214 2 | world.~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. Thus far I too should agree 215 2 | tell you?~Cleinias. What?~Athenian. The inference at which 216 2 | they are never the same.~Athenian. Most true, Cleinias; and 217 2 | Cleinias. Certainly they are.~Athenian. And if they were extended 218 2 | saying ought to prevail.~Athenian. Let us see whether we understand 219 2 | agree and partly do not.~Athenian. When a man has health and 220 2 | Cleinias. That is quite true.~Athenian. Once more: Suppose that 221 2 | much?~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. And an evil life too?~Cleinias. 222 2 | disposed to grant that.~Athenian. Will he not live painfully 223 2 | How can I possibly say so?~Athenian. How! Then may Heaven make 224 2 | base?~Cleinias. Impossible.~Athenian. The view which identifies 225 2 | of them.~Cleinias. True.~Athenian. And which may be supposed 226 2 | that of the better soul.~Athenian. Then the unjust life must 227 2 | in the present argument.~Athenian. And even supposing this 228 2 | are hard to be persuaded.~Athenian. And yet the story of the 229 2 | Cleinias. What is that story?~Athenian. The story of armed men 230 2 | what you are now saying.~Athenian. The next suggestion which 231 2 | assent to what you say.~Athenian. First will enter in their 232 2 | mean to say about them.~Athenian. And yet almost all that 233 2 | to be a little plainer?~Athenian. I was speaking at the commencement 234 2 | Cleinias. I quite remember.~Athenian. Thus far I have spoken 235 2 | to dance in his honour.~Athenian. Very true; and therefore 236 2 | proposal.~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. Are we agreed thus far?~ 237 2 | far?~Cleinias. About what?~Athenian. That every man and boy, 238 2 | Cleinias. Every one will agree.~Athenian. Where, then, will that 239 2 | we cannot let them off.~Athenian. Then how can we carry out 240 2 | the way?~Cleinias. What?~Athenian. When a man is advancing 241 2 | true?~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. Well, and will he not be 242 2 | exhibit.~Cleinias. No doubt.~Athenian. How, then, shall we reassure 243 2 | will be far more ready.~Athenian. There will be no impropriety 244 2 | Cleinias. None at all.~Athenian. And what strain will they 245 2 | them.~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. And what strain is suitable 246 2 | accustomed to sing in our chorus.~Athenian. I dare say; for you have 247 2 | depreciate our lawgivers.~Athenian. Not intentionally, if at 248 2 | best.~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. When things have an accompanying 249 2 | rightness.~Cleinias. Just so.~Athenian. Thus, too, I should say 250 2 | to it.~Cleinias. Exactly.~Athenian. And so in the imitative 251 2 | a charm?~Cleinias. Yes.~Athenian. But equal proportions, 252 2 | rightness.~Cleinias. Yes.~Athenian. Then that only can be rightly 253 2 | harmless pleasure, are you not?~Athenian. Yes; and this I term amusement, 254 2 | of.~Cleinias. Very true.~Athenian. Then, if such be our principles, 255 2 | whatever.~Cleinias. Quite true.~Athenian. Do we not regard all music 256 2 | imitative?~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. Then, when any one says 257 2 | good.~Cleinias. Very true.~Athenian. And those who seek for 258 2 | quality.~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. And every one will admit 259 2 | this?~Cleinias. They will.~Athenian. Surely then he who would 260 2 | Cleinias. Certainly not.~Athenian. And will he who does not 261 2 | another way.~Cleinias. How?~Athenian. There are ten thousand 262 2 | of sight?~Cleinias. Yes.~Athenian. And can he who does not 263 2 | imitated?~Cleinias. Impossible.~Athenian. But even if we know that 264 2 | us be judges of beauty.~Athenian. Very true; and may we not 265 2 | rhythms?~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. Then let us not faint in 266 2 | Cleinias. Clearly they cannot.~Athenian. The many are ridiculous 267 2 | Cleinias. That is most certain.~Athenian. But can a man who does 268 2 | right?~Cleinias. Impossible.~Athenian. Then now, as would appear, 269 2 | case.~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. Every man has a more than 270 2 | mankind.~Cleinias. Quite true.~Athenian. Were we not saying that 271 2 | and shame?~Cleinias. True.~Athenian. And the guardians of these 272 2 | greater.~Cleinias. Right.~Athenian. If, then, drinking and 273 2 | regulated as you propose.~Athenian. Let us not then simply 274 2 | Cleinias. To what do you refer?~Athenian. There is a tradition or 275 2 | To be sure, I remember.~Athenian. And did we not say that 276 2 | them?~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. The other story implied 277 2 | precisely what was said.~Athenian. Then half the subject may 278 2 | you divide the subject?~Athenian. The whole choral art is 279 2 | the voice.~Cleinias. Yes.~Athenian. The movement of the body 280 2 | voice.~Cleinias. Most true.~Athenian. And the sound of the voice 281 2 | Cleinias. We were right.~Athenian. And the movement of the 282 2 | gymnastic.~Cleinias. Exactly.~Athenian. Music, which was one half 283 2 | make to such an enquiry?~Athenian. An answer is contained 284 2 | understand me; do as you say.~Athenian. I will; and there will 285 2 | Cleinias. There will not.~Athenian. Is not the origin of gymnastics, 286 2 | art?~Cleinias. Very true.~Athenian. And one part of this subject 287 2 | discussed?~Cleinias. Exactly.~Athenian. I have first a final word 288 2 | What more have you to say?~Athenian. I should say that if a 289 3 | BOOK III~Athenian Stranger. Enough of this. 290 3 | Cleinias. What do you mean?~Athenian. I mean that he might watch 291 3 | ages.~Cleinias. How so?~Athenian. Why, do you think that 292 3 | them?~Cleinias. Hardly.~Athenian. But are sure that it must 293 3 | incalculable?~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. And have not thousands 294 3 | declining?~Cleinias. To be sure.~Athenian. Let us endeavour to ascertain 295 3 | effort to understand you.~Athenian. Do you believe that there 296 3 | Cleinias. What traditions?~Athenian. The traditions about the 297 3 | disposed to believe them.~Athenian. Let us consider one of 298 3 | we to observe about it?~Athenian. I mean to say that those 299 3 | mountains.~Cleinias. Clearly.~Athenian. Such survivors would necessarily 300 3 | another.~Cleinias. Very true.~Athenian. Let us suppose, then, that 301 3 | time.~Cleinias. Very good.~Athenian. Would not all implements 302 3 | which are but of yesterday.~Athenian. Have you forgotten, Cleinias, 303 3 | that you mean Epimenides.~Athenian. The same, my friend; he 304 3 | according to our tradition.~Athenian. After the great destruction, 305 3 | tended them?~Cleinias. True.~Athenian. And of cities or governments 306 3 | Cleinias. None whatever.~Athenian. And out of this state of 307 3 | Cleinias. What do you mean?~Athenian. Why, my good friend, how 308 3 | and you are quite right.~Athenian. But, as time advanced and 309 3 | is.~Cleinias. Very true.~Athenian. Doubtless the change was 310 3 | highly probable supposition.~Athenian. At first, they would have 311 3 | plain.~Cleinias. Of course.~Athenian. The fewness of the survivors 312 3 | There could not have been.~Athenian. In how many generations 313 3 | not for many generations.~Athenian. During this period, and 314 3 | disappear.~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. Faction and war would also 315 3 | Cleinias. How would that be?~Athenian. In the first place, the 316 3 | those of my friend here.~Athenian. Would not many generations 317 3 | explained.~Cleinias. Very true.~Athenian. I should wish you to understand 318 3 | has been very well said.~Athenian. They could hardly have 319 3 | called.~Cleinias. Probably.~Athenian. But there was already existing 320 3 | tradition to barbarism.~Athenian. Yes, he does confirm it; 321 3 | arise.~Cleinias. We may.~Athenian. And were not such states 322 3 | just?~Cleinias. Very true.~Athenian. After this they came together 323 3 | least we may suppose so.~Athenian. There is another thing 324 3 | happen.~Cleinias. What?~Athenian. When these larger habitations 325 3 | laws.~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. And every man surely likes 326 3 | so well.~Cleinias. True.~Athenian. Then now we seem to have 327 3 | legislation.~Cleinias. Exactly.~Athenian. The next step will be that 328 3 | natural order of things.~Athenian. Then, now let us speak 329 3 | Cleinias. What is that?~Athenian. The form which in fact 330 3 | attain truth.~Cleinias. Yes.~Athenian. Then now let us proceed 331 3 | Cleinias. By all means.~Athenian. Ilium was built, when they 332 3 | Such is the tradition.~Athenian. And we must suppose this 333 3 | many ages after the deluge?~Athenian. A marvellous forgetfulness 334 3 | long interval, clearly.~Athenian. And, as population increased, 335 3 | inhabited.~Cleinias. Doubtless.~Athenian. Those cities made war against 336 3 | sea.~Cleinias. Clearly.~Athenian. The Achaeans remained ten 337 3 | overthrew Troy.~Cleinias. True.~Athenian. And during the ten years 338 3 | Sparta.~Megillus. To be sure.~Athenian. Thus, after digressing 339 3 | short for the discussion.~Athenian. Then I suppose that we 340 3 | subject?~Megillus. Certainly.~Athenian. Let us place ourselves 341 3 | Lacedaemon.~Megillus. True.~Athenian. Temenus was the king of 342 3 | Lacedaemon.~Megillus. Certainly.~Athenian. To these kings all the 343 3 | kingdom.~Megillus. True.~Athenian. But can a kingship be destroyed, 344 3 | while ago?~Megillus. No.~Athenian. And may we not now further 345 3 | the fact?~Megillus. Yes.~Athenian. And the three states to 346 3 | Megillus. What security?~Athenian. That the other two states 347 3 | rebellious third.~Megillus. True.~Athenian. Many persons say that legislators 348 3 | manner.~Megillus. Exactly.~Athenian. Whereas the physician may 349 3 | pain.~Megillus. Certainly.~Athenian. There was also another 350 3 | Megillus. What advantage?~Athenian. The legislators of that 351 3 | standing.~Megillus. Very true.~Athenian. But then, my good friends, 352 3 | and why do you blame them?~Athenian. There were three kingdoms, 353 3 | is not easily answered.~Athenian. And yet must be answered 354 3 | must find out why this was.~Athenian. What laws are more worthy 355 3 | Megillus. I know of none.~Athenian. Can we doubt that your 356 3 | states?~Megillus. Quite true.~Athenian. And would not men who had 357 3 | Megillus. Of course they would.~Athenian. Yet these institutions, 358 3 | war.~Megillus. No doubt.~Athenian. But what was the ruin of 359 3 | here presented to his view.~Athenian. Then now we seem to have 360 3 | question.~Megillus. Very true.~Athenian. Did you never remark, sage 361 3 | referring, and what do you mean?~Athenian. I was thinking of my own 362 3 | we in assenting to you?~Athenian. Perhaps; and yet I cannot 363 3 | would he not be justified?~Athenian. Reflect; in what point 364 3 | had?~Megillus. Very good.~Athenian. Suppose any one were in 365 3 | desires.~Megillus. He would.~Athenian. Well, now, and does not 366 3 | mankind?~Megillus. What is it?~Athenian. The desire which a man 367 3 | desire.~Megillus. Certainly.~Athenian. And having this desire 368 3 | it.~Megillus. No doubt.~Athenian. And we join in the prayers 369 3 | themselves.~Megillus. We do.~Athenian. Dear is the son to the 370 3 | elder.~Megillus. Of course.~Athenian. And yet the son often prays 371 3 | young and foolish, you mean?~Athenian. Yes; or when the father, 372 3 | pray and strive for wisdom.~Athenian. Yes; and I remember, and 373 3 | if Heaven wills. Go on.~Athenian. Well, then, proceeding 374 3 | Cleinias. That is evident.~Athenian. Then now consider what 375 3 | opinion is—~Cleinias. What?~Athenian. That the greatest ignorance 376 3 | we understand and agree.~Athenian. Let us, then, in the first 377 3 | Let it be so laid down.~Athenian. I suppose that there must 378 3 | states?~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. And what are the principles 379 3 | offspring?~Cleinias. There is.~Athenian. Next follows the principle 380 3 | obey?~Cleinias. To be sure.~Athenian. And, fourthly, that slaves 381 3 | rule?~Cleinias. Of course.~Athenian. Fifthly, if I am not mistaken, 382 3 | rule not to be disobeyed.~Athenian. Yes, and a rule which prevails 383 3 | compulsion.~Cleinias. Most true.~Athenian. There is a seventh kind 384 3 | just.~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. “Then now,” as we say playfully 385 3 | worse.”~Cleinias. Very true.~Athenian. And may we suppose this 386 3 | proud and luxurious life.~Athenian. Is it not palpable that 387 3 | Cleinias. Very likely.~Athenian. Good; and what measures 388 3 | Megillus. What do you mean?~Athenian. Any one who looks at what 389 3 | Speak a little more clearly.~Athenian. Nothing can be clearer 390 3 | make.~Megillus. What is it?~Athenian. That if any one gives too 391 3 | follows:—~Megillus. What?~Athenian. A God, who watched over 392 3 | despised.~Cleinias. True.~Athenian. There was small credit 393 3 | the legislator should aim.~Athenian. Hear me, then: there are 394 3 | both.~Cleinias. Impossible.~Athenian. Neither the one, if it 395 3 | to elucidate our subject.~Athenian. Hear, then:—There was a 396 3 | appears to have been the case.~Athenian. How, then, was this advantage 397 3 | bearing upon our subject.~Athenian. I imagine that Cyrus, though 398 3 | What makes you say so?~Athenian. I think that from his youth 399 3 | splendid education truly!~Athenian. Such an one as women were 400 3 | What would you expect?~Athenian. Their father had possessions 401 3 | probably were the facts.~Athenian. Yes; and the tradition 402 3 | chiefs.~Cleinias. True.~Athenian. Let us note the rest of 403 3 | What do you mean, Stranger?~Athenian. I suppose that courage 404 3 | virtue?~Megillus. To be sure.~Athenian. Then, now hear and judge 405 3 | Megillus. Heaven forbid!~Athenian. Or an artist, who was clever 406 3 | Megillus. Certainly not.~Athenian. And surely justice does 407 3 | temperance?~Megillus. Impossible.~Athenian. Any more than our pattern 408 3 | intemperate?~Megillus. No.~Athenian. There is a further consideration 409 3 | states.~Megillus. What is it?~Athenian. I should like to know whether 410 3 | Megillus. I cannot tell.~Athenian. And that is the best answer; 411 3 | Megillus. I am fortunate.~Athenian. Very good; a quality, which 412 3 | speaking of temperance?~Athenian. Yes; but of the other virtues, 413 3 | regular order.~Megillus. True.~Athenian. And ought not the legislator 414 3 | Megillus. Certainly he should.~Athenian. Suppose that we leave to 415 3 | ourselves.~Megillus. Very; good.~Athenian. We maintain, then, that 416 3 | that be plainly declared.~Athenian. The consideration of the 417 3 | silver.~Megillus. Quite true.~Athenian. And now enough of the Persians, 418 3 | among them.~Megillus. Good.~Athenian. Next, we must pass in review 419 3 | limited, which was our ancient Athenian constitution at the time 420 3 | dispersed.~Megillus. Your words, Athenian, are quite true, and worthy 421 3 | yourself and of your country.~Athenian. They are true, Megillus; 422 3 | us a fuller explanation.~Athenian. I will. Under the ancient 423 3 | What laws do you mean?~Athenian. In the first place, let 424 3 | liberty?~Megillus. Very true.~Athenian. Consequent upon this freedom 425 3 | said?~Megillus. Very good.~Athenian. This, then, has been said 426 3 | sake—~Megillus. Of what?~Athenian. We were maintaining that 427 3 | not?~Megillus. Certainly.~Athenian. With a view to this we 428 3 | gainers.~Megillus. Very true.~Athenian. And that was our reason 429 3 | which is in contemplation.~Athenian. Good news, Cleinias; if 430 4 | BOOK IV~Athenian Stranger. And now, what 431 4 | stadia distant from the sea.~Athenian. And are there harbours 432 4 | there could not be better.~Athenian. Alas! what a prospect! 433 4 | Hardly in need of anything.~Athenian. And is there any neighbouring 434 4 | deserted from time immemorial.~Athenian. And has the place a fair 435 4 | the rest of Crete in that.~Athenian. You mean to say that there 436 4 | plain?~Cleinias. Exactly.~Athenian. Then there is some hope 437 4 | were and are in the right.~Athenian. Well, but let me ask, how 438 4 | for the interior of ships.~Athenian. These are also natural 439 4 | advantages.~Cleinias. Why so?~Athenian. Because no city ought to 440 4 | which we have been speaking?~Athenian. Remember, my good friend, 441 4 | the salvation of Hellas.~Athenian. Why, yes; and that is an 442 4 | already.~Cleinias. Yes.~Athenian. Then we have only to ask 443 4 | Cleinias. The best by far.~Athenian. And now let me proceed 444 4 | Gortys in the Peloponnesus.~Athenian. Cities find colonization 445 4 | to know why you say so.~Athenian. My good friend, I am afraid 446 4 | what are you referring?~Athenian. I was going to say that 447 4 | them.~Cleinias. What is it?~Athenian. That God governs all things, 448 4 | would agree?~Cleinias. Yes.~Athenian. And does not a like principle 449 4 | scene?~Cleinias. Most true.~Athenian. In each case the artist 450 4 | art?~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. And all the other artists 451 4 | so?~Cleinias. Of course.~Athenian. And the legislator would 452 4 | I believe that he would.~Athenian. “Come, legislator,” we 453 4 | his answer?~Cleinias. Yes.~Athenian. He will say—”Give me a 454 4 | speaks, must be temperance?~Athenian. Yes, Cleinias, temperance 455 4 | meaning.~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. Then our tyrant must have 456 4 | such a monstrous doctrine?~Athenian. There is surely no difficulty 457 4 | courageous, of a noble nature?~Athenian. Yes; and you must add fortunate; 458 4 | is not that your meaning?~Athenian. Not so; I mean rather to 459 4 | How? I do not understand.~Athenian. And yet I have repeated 460 4 | great desire to see one.~Athenian. And yet, where there is 461 4 | Cleinias. What do you mean?~Athenian. I mean that you might see 462 4 | and of compelling them?~Athenian. Let no one, my friends, 463 4 | Of what are you speaking?~Athenian. The difficulty is to find 464 4 | Cleinias. How do you mean?~Athenian. Let us try to amuse ourselves, 465 4 | us proceed without delay.~Athenian. Then let us invoke God 466 4 | Cleinias. May he come!~Athenian. But what form of polity 467 4 | you would include tyranny.~Athenian. Which of you will first 468 4 | Cnosus is any of these.~Athenian. The reason is, my excellent 469 4 | Cleinias. And who is this God?~Athenian. May I still make use of 470 4 | Cleinias. By all means.~Athenian. In the primeval world, 471 4 | necessary to hear about that.~Athenian. I quite agree with you; 472 4 | giving us the whole story.~Athenian. I will do as you suggest. 473 4 | Cleinias. Certainly we will.~Athenian. You are aware—are you not?— 474 4 | justice.~Cleinias. How?~Athenian. Justice is said by them 475 4 | Cleinias. Speak plainer.~Athenian. I will:—”Surely,” they 476 4 | state?”~Cleinias. True.~Athenian. “Well,” they would add, “ 477 4 | can they have any other?~Athenian. “And whoever transgresses 478 4 | just?”~Cleinias. Naturally.~Athenian. “This, then, is always 479 4 | are correct in their view.~Athenian. Why, yes, this is one of 480 4 | Cleinias. Which do you mean?~Athenian. Those which we were examining 481 4 | Cleinias. Yes; I remember.~Athenian. Consider, then, to whom 482 4 | states—~Cleinias. What thing?~Athenian. That when there has been 483 4 | the keen vision of age.~Athenian. Why, yes; every man when 484 4 | keenest.~Cleinias. Very true.~Athenian. And now, what is to be 485 4 | them?~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. “Friends,” we say to them,—” 486 4 | can be no doubt of that.~Athenian. Then what life is agreeable 487 4 | Cleinias. What is that?~Athenian. I should wish the citizens 488 4 | laws.~Cleinias. Certainly.~Athenian. The proposal appears to 489 4 | he certainly speaks well.~Athenian. Very true: and now let 490 4 | upon me.~Cleinias. Proceed.~Athenian. Suppose that we have a 491 4 | Cleinias. Of course he can.~Athenian. “Did we not hear you just 492 4 | Cleinias. That is true.~Athenian. May we not fairly make 493 4 | answer shall we make to him?~Athenian. That the poet, according 494 4 | Cleinias. Certainly not.~Athenian. And is our legislator to 495 4 | doctors.~Cleinias. Very true.~Athenian. And whether they are slaves 496 4 | doctors?~Cleinias. To be sure.~Athenian. And did you ever observe 497 4 | double way is far better.~Athenian. Should you like to see 498 4 | Cleinias. Certainly I should.~Athenian. What will be our first 499 4 | births?~Cleinias. He will.~Athenian. In all states the birth 500 4 | marriage?~Cleinias. Very true.~Athenian. And, according to the true