Philebus
    Part
  1 Intro|         inspiration. The interlocutor Protarchus, the son of Callias, who
  2 Intro|               we naturally reply with Protarchus, that the pleasure is what
  3 Intro|        argument is now transferred to Protarchus, the son of Callias, a noble
  4 Intro|             and perhaps the lover, of Protarchus, takes no further part in
  5 Intro|           well as of the intemperate. Protarchus replies that although pleasures
  6 Intro|            among figures and colours. Protarchus does not see the drift of
  7 Intro|              of the one and the many.~Protarchus agrees to the proposal,
  8 Intro|           indefinite, which alone, as Protarchus thinks (who seems to confuse
  9 Intro|               Against this conclusion Protarchus reclaims.~Leaving his denial
 10 Intro|                with the wise man whom Protarchus loves (and only a wise man
 11 Intro|              there any inconsistency, Protarchus, with his statement in what
 12 Intro|              our moral approval.~Like Protarchus in the Philebus, we can
 13 Text |               THE DIALOGUE: Socrates, Protarchus, Philebus.~SOCRATES: Observe,
 14 Text |          Philebus.~SOCRATES: Observe, Protarchus, the nature of the position
 15 Text |               I sum up the two sides?~PROTARCHUS: By all means.~SOCRATES:
 16 Text |       Socrates.~SOCRATES: And do you, Protarchus, accept the position which
 17 Text |             which is assigned to you?~PROTARCHUS: I cannot do otherwise,
 18 Text |             means, to be ascertained.~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Shall
 19 Text |               Shall we further agree—~PROTARCHUS: To what?~SOCRATES: That
 20 Text |              of making all men happy.~PROTARCHUS: Yes, by all means.~SOCRATES:
 21 Text |              wisdom, is such a state?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And what
 22 Text |              over the life of wisdom.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: Or suppose
 23 Text |               defeated;—do you agree?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And
 24 Text |             must decide for yourself, Protarchus.~PROTARCHUS: You, Philebus,
 25 Text |             for yourself, Protarchus.~PROTARCHUS: You, Philebus, have handed
 26 Text |             witness that I now do so.~PROTARCHUS: You may appeal to us; we
 27 Text |            her real name is Pleasure.~PROTARCHUS: Very good.~SOCRATES: The
 28 Text |              awe which I always feel, Protarchus, about the names of the
 29 Text |        pleasures are severally alike!~PROTARCHUS: Why, Socrates, they are
 30 Text |           opposition among pleasures.~PROTARCHUS: Very likely; but how will
 31 Text |        designate all of them as good.~PROTARCHUS: What do you mean, Socrates?
 32 Text |                and sometimes opposed?~PROTARCHUS: Not in so far as they are
 33 Text |           return to the old position, Protarchus, and so we are to say (are
 34 Text |        reasoners? (Probably corrupt.)~PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?~SOCRATES:
 35 Text |       understanding with one another.~PROTARCHUS: How do you mean?~SOCRATES:
 36 Text |              mean?~SOCRATES: Shall I, Protarchus, have my own question asked
 37 Text |          question asked of me by you?~PROTARCHUS: What question?~SOCRATES:
 38 Text |         pleasures of which you spoke.~PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?~SOCRATES:
 39 Text |             by clinging to a fallacy?~PROTARCHUS: May none of this befal
 40 Text |               us have no concealment, Protarchus, of the differences between
 41 Text |               fighting for the truth.~PROTARCHUS: Certainly we ought.~SOCRATES:
 42 Text |             which the argument rests.~PROTARCHUS: What principle?~SOCRATES:
 43 Text |         sometimes against their will.~PROTARCHUS: Speak plainer.~SOCRATES:
 44 Text |               is very open to attack.~PROTARCHUS: Do you mean, when a person
 45 Text |            when a person says that I, Protarchus, am by nature one and also
 46 Text |          other ways?~SOCRATES: Those, Protarchus, are the common and acknowledged
 47 Text |            and the many are only one.~PROTARCHUS: But what, Socrates, are
 48 Text |               birth to a controversy.~PROTARCHUS: Of what nature?~SOCRATES:
 49 Text |            and in many things? These, Protarchus, are the real difficulties,
 50 Text |              of them is very helpful.~PROTARCHUS: Then, Socrates, let us
 51 Text |           That is what I should wish.~PROTARCHUS: And I am sure that all
 52 Text |           issue? Shall we begin thus?~PROTARCHUS: How?~SOCRATES: We say that
 53 Text |      interpreter could only be found.~PROTARCHUS: Considering, Socrates,
 54 Text |         helpless in the hour of need.~PROTARCHUS: Tell us what that is.~SOCRATES:
 55 Text |              discoveries in the arts.~PROTARCHUS: Tell us what it is.~SOCRATES:
 56 Text |       disputation and true dialectic.~PROTARCHUS: I think that I partly understand
 57 Text |              letters of the alphabet, Protarchus, which you were made to
 58 Text |             made to learn as a child.~PROTARCHUS: How do they afford an illustration?~
 59 Text |              is one and yet infinite.~PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And
 60 Text |             makes a man a grammarian.~PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And
 61 Text |         musician is of the same kind.~PROTARCHUS: How so?~SOCRATES: Sound
 62 Text |          music as well as in grammar?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And
 63 Text |                may we affirm so much?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: But you
 64 Text |              almost nothing of music.~PROTARCHUS: Nothing.~SOCRATES: But
 65 Text |             the number of famous men.~PROTARCHUS: I think that what Socrates
 66 Text |           asking that question of us, Protarchus.~PROTARCHUS: Indeed he is,
 67 Text |           question of us, Protarchus.~PROTARCHUS: Indeed he is, and you must
 68 Text |               to the case of letters.~PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?~SOCRATES:
 69 Text |           PHILEBUS: The illustration, Protarchus, has assisted me in understanding
 70 Text |              that is a question which Protarchus and I have been long asking.~
 71 Text |               number of individuals).~PROTARCHUS: That is a very serious
 72 Text |          smallest use in any enquiry.~PROTARCHUS: That seems to be very near
 73 Text |             with her:—Am I not right?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And there
 74 Text |           more clearly as we proceed.~PROTARCHUS: Capital, Socrates; pray
 75 Text |          agree on some little points.~PROTARCHUS: What are they?~SOCRATES:
 76 Text |            good perfect or imperfect?~PROTARCHUS: The most perfect, Socrates,
 77 Text |               is the good sufficient?~PROTARCHUS: Yes, certainly, and in
 78 Text |              not accompanied by good.~PROTARCHUS: That is undeniable.~SOCRATES:
 79 Text |              and pass them in review.~PROTARCHUS: How do you mean?~SOCRATES:
 80 Text |             really be the chief good.~PROTARCHUS: Impossible.~SOCRATES: And
 81 Text |              to test these two lives?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Then
 82 Text |                SOCRATES: Then answer.~PROTARCHUS: Ask.~SOCRATES: Would you
 83 Text |           SOCRATES: Would you choose, Protarchus, to live all your life long
 84 Text |               the greatest pleasures?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly I should.~SOCRATES:
 85 Text |             you had perfect pleasure?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES:
 86 Text |               at any rate want sight?~PROTARCHUS: Why should I? Having pleasure
 87 Text |               the greatest pleasures?~PROTARCHUS: I should.~SOCRATES: But
 88 Text |               devoid of intelligence.~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And
 89 Text |              Could this be otherwise?~PROTARCHUS: No.~SOCRATES: But is such
 90 Text |              is such a life eligible?~PROTARCHUS: I cannot answer you, Socrates;
 91 Text |               and examine it in turn.~PROTARCHUS: And what is this life of
 92 Text |          these and the like feelings?~PROTARCHUS: Neither life, Socrates,
 93 Text |         SOCRATES: What would you say, Protarchus, to both of these in one,
 94 Text |              of the union of the two?~PROTARCHUS: Out of the union, that
 95 Text |             is the life which I mean.~PROTARCHUS: There can be no difference
 96 Text |              you see the consequence?~PROTARCHUS: To be sure I do. The consequence
 97 Text |               some unhappy necessity.~PROTARCHUS: Certainly that seems to
 98 Text |             attain even to the third.~PROTARCHUS: Truly, Socrates, pleasure
 99 Text |            and finally detecting her?~PROTARCHUS: Nonsense, Socrates.~SOCRATES:
100 Text |            which is an impossibility?~PROTARCHUS: Yes, and more than that,
101 Text |          argument.~SOCRATES: Heavens! Protarchus, that will be a tedious
102 Text |             then finish the argument?~PROTARCHUS: Of course you must.~SOCRATES:
103 Text |             in laying the foundation.~PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?~SOCRATES:
104 Text |           object, into three classes.~PROTARCHUS: Upon what principle would
105 Text |              our newly-found notions.~PROTARCHUS: Which of them?~SOCRATES:
106 Text |      existence, and also an infinite?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Let
107 Text |             division and enumeration.~PROTARCHUS: What do you mean, my good
108 Text |         fourth class is still wanted.~PROTARCHUS: What will that be?~SOCRATES:
109 Text |            class to the three others.~PROTARCHUS: And would you like to have
110 Text |            shall allow me to have it.~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Let
111 Text |              there is a one and many.~PROTARCHUS: If you would explain to
112 Text |               be hereafter discussed.~PROTARCHUS: I agree.~SOCRATES: And
113 Text |               themselves have an end.~PROTARCHUS: That is most true.~SOCRATES:
114 Text |             enters a more and a less.~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Then, says
115 Text |           they must also be infinite.~PROTARCHUS: Yes, Socrates, that is
116 Text |                SOCRATES: Yes, my dear Protarchus, and your answer reminds
117 Text |            the class of the infinite.~PROTARCHUS: Your remark certainly has
118 Text |               a note of the infinite—~PROTARCHUS: What?~SOCRATES: I want
119 Text |            upon them—do you remember?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And all
120 Text |              finite; what do you say?~PROTARCHUS: Excellent, Socrates.~SOCRATES:
121 Text |               third or compound kind?~PROTARCHUS: You, I think, will have
122 Text |            will listen to my prayers.~PROTARCHUS: Offer up a prayer, then,
123 Text |              SOCRATES: I am thinking, Protarchus, and I believe that some
124 Text |           some God has befriended us.~PROTARCHUS: What do you mean, and what
125 Text |               you listen to my words.~PROTARCHUS: Proceed.~SOCRATES: Were
126 Text |             now of hotter and colder?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: Add to
127 Text |               unity of more and less.~PROTARCHUS: In the class of the infinite,
128 Text |           mingle this with the other.~PROTARCHUS: What is the other.~SOCRATES:
129 Text |        combined, a third will appear.~PROTARCHUS: What do you mean by the
130 Text |               the different elements.~PROTARCHUS: I understand; you seem
131 Text |              Yes, that is my meaning.~PROTARCHUS: Proceed.~SOCRATES: Does
132 Text |             in disease, for instance?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And
133 Text |             the whole frame of music?~PROTARCHUS: Yes, certainly.~SOCRATES:
134 Text |               moderation and harmony?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And
135 Text |             all the delights of life?~PROTARCHUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: I
136 Text |            the soul.— What think you, Protarchus?~PROTARCHUS: Her ways are
137 Text |           What think you, Protarchus?~PROTARCHUS: Her ways are much to my
138 Text |              spoken of three classes?~PROTARCHUS: Yes, I think that I understand
139 Text |               therefore appeared one.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And the
140 Text |               it to be by nature one?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Yes, indeed;
141 Text |           which the limit introduces.~PROTARCHUS: I understand.~SOCRATES:
142 Text |           into being through a cause?~PROTARCHUS: Yes, certainly; for how
143 Text |            may be rightly called one?~PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And
144 Text |            only in name—shall we not?~PROTARCHUS: We shall.~SOCRATES: The
145 Text |          effect naturally follows it?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Then
146 Text |              the same, but different?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: Did not
147 Text |        furnish all the three classes?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And the
148 Text |            called a fourth principle?~PROTARCHUS: So let us call it.~SOCRATES:
149 Text | recapitulating each of them in order.~PROTARCHUS: By all means.~SOCRATES:
150 Text |             generation as the fourth.~PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES:
151 Text |       belonged to pleasure or wisdom?~PROTARCHUS: We were.~SOCRATES: And
152 Text |          original subject of dispute?~PROTARCHUS: I dare say.~SOCRATES: We
153 Text |             the conqueror—did we not?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And we
154 Text |           class it is to be assigned?~PROTARCHUS: Beyond a doubt.~SOCRATES:
155 Text |        comprehend the conqueror life.~PROTARCHUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: And
156 Text |              the aforesaid classes, O Protarchus and Philebus, can we without
157 Text |               to answer the question.~PROTARCHUS: Socrates is quite right,
158 Text |            PHILEBUS: And did not you, Protarchus, propose to answer in my
159 Text |        propose to answer in my place?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly I did; but I
160 Text |            SOCRATES: I must obey you, Protarchus; nor is the task which you
161 Text |            mind and knowledge belong?~PROTARCHUS: You did, indeed, Socrates.~
162 Text |              good; let us begin then, Protarchus, by asking a question.~PROTARCHUS:
163 Text |     Protarchus, by asking a question.~PROTARCHUS: What question?~SOCRATES:
164 Text |              intelligence and wisdom.~PROTARCHUS: Wide asunder are the two
165 Text |        declares that all is disorder?~PROTARCHUS: That would certainly be
166 Text |           next stage of the argument.~PROTARCHUS: Let me hear.~SOCRATES:
167 Text |            constitution of the world.~PROTARCHUS: The proverb may be applied
168 Text |               each of these elements.~PROTARCHUS: What is it?~SOCRATES: Only
169 Text |              us, and in the universe.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And is
170 Text |            every power that fire has.~PROTARCHUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: And
171 Text |      dependent on the universal fire?~PROTARCHUS: That is a question which
172 Text |               all the other elements?~PROTARCHUS: Why, how could any man
173 Text |              we not call them a body?~PROTARCHUS: We did.~SOCRATES: And the
174 Text |              up of the same elements.~PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: But
175 Text |               were just now speaking?~PROTARCHUS: That again, Socrates, is
176 Text |           this question worth asking?~PROTARCHUS: What question?~SOCRATES:
177 Text |               be said to have a soul?~PROTARCHUS: Clearly.~SOCRATES: And
178 Text |              comes that soul, my dear Protarchus, unless the body of the
179 Text |              there be another source?~PROTARCHUS: Clearly, Socrates, that
180 Text |           source.~SOCRATES: Why, yes, Protarchus; for surely we cannot imagine
181 Text |           noblest and fairest things?~PROTARCHUS: Such a supposition is quite
182 Text |               called wisdom and mind?~PROTARCHUS: Most justly.~SOCRATES:
183 Text |            cannot exist without soul?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES:
184 Text |             are pleased to be called.~PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: Do
185 Text |            are rashly spoken by us, O Protarchus, for they are in harmony
186 Text |              mind rules the universe.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And they
187 Text |               you now have my answer.~PROTARCHUS: I have indeed, and yet
188 Text |              is sometimes refreshing, Protarchus, when it interrupts earnest.~
189 Text |           when it interrupts earnest.~PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: I
190 Text |            what is the power of mind.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And the
191 Text |             been long ago discovered?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And let
192 Text |            middle, or end of its own.~PROTARCHUS: I shall be sure to remember.~
193 Text |               tested apart from pain.~PROTARCHUS: If this is the road, let
194 Text |          origin of pleasure and pain.~PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?~SOCRATES:
195 Text |           seat is in the mixed class.~PROTARCHUS: And would you tell me again,
196 Text |               the best of my ability.~PROTARCHUS: Very good.~SOCRATES: Let
197 Text |            third in the list of four.~PROTARCHUS: That which followed the
198 Text |               me your best attention?~PROTARCHUS: Proceed; I am attending.~
199 Text |             and a generation of pain.~PROTARCHUS: That is very probable.~
200 Text |               of the greatest moment.~PROTARCHUS: I believe that you are
201 Text |            the simplest illustration?~PROTARCHUS: What phenomena do you mean?~
202 Text |               dissolution and a pain.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: Whereas
203 Text |         replenishment and a pleasure?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Thirst again
204 Text |            refrigeration is pleasant.~PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And
205 Text |               own nature is pleasure?~PROTARCHUS: Granted; what you say has
206 Text |              which we have described?~PROTARCHUS: Good.~SOCRATES: Let us
207 Text |            pain, fearful and anxious.~PROTARCHUS: Yes; this is another class
208 Text |      admitting of the nature of good.~PROTARCHUS: You say most truly that
209 Text |              or pain, great or small?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES:
210 Text |              of pleasure and of pain?~PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And
211 Text |             say a few words about it.~PROTARCHUS: What have you to say?~SOCRATES:
212 Text |           live in this neutral state.~PROTARCHUS: You mean that he may live
213 Text |           life of thought and wisdom.~PROTARCHUS: Yes, certainly, we said
214 Text |             most divine of all lives?~PROTARCHUS: If so, the gods, at any
215 Text |             have to resign the first.~PROTARCHUS: Just so.~SOCRATES: The
216 Text |         entirely derived from memory.~PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?~SOCRATES:
217 Text |               be properly cleared up.~PROTARCHUS: How will you proceed?~SOCRATES:
218 Text |             both and to each of them.~PROTARCHUS: Granted.~SOCRATES: And
219 Text |          first but not of the second?~PROTARCHUS: Quite true.~SOCRATES: When
220 Text |            contradiction; do you see?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Then just
221 Text |               as to change the terms.~PROTARCHUS: How shall I change them?~
222 Text |            body, say unconsciousness.~PROTARCHUS: I see.~SOCRATES: And the
223 Text |        properly called consciousness?~PROTARCHUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: Then
224 Text |              the meaning of the word?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And memory
225 Text |        preservation of consciousness?~PROTARCHUS: Right.~SOCRATES: But do
226 Text |             memory from recollection?~PROTARCHUS: I think so.~SOCRATES: And
227 Text |             in company with the body?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And
228 Text |        recollection and reminiscence?~PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: There
229 Text |            reason why I say all this.~PROTARCHUS: What is it?~SOCRATES: I
230 Text |              show the nature of both.~PROTARCHUS: Then now, Socrates, let
231 Text |            nature and seat of desire.~PROTARCHUS: Ay; let us enquire into
232 Text |               nothing.~SOCRATES: Nay, Protarchus, we shall surely lose the
233 Text |         puzzle if we find the answer.~PROTARCHUS: A fair retort; but let
234 Text |              in the class of desires?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And
235 Text |           call them by a single name?~PROTARCHUS: By heavens, Socrates, that
236 Text |              go back to our examples.~PROTARCHUS: Where shall we begin?~SOCRATES:
237 Text |               we say ‘a man thirsts’?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: We mean
238 Text |               say that he ‘is empty’?~PROTARCHUS: Of course.~SOCRATES: And
239 Text |             And is not thirst desire?~PROTARCHUS: Yes, of drink.~SOCRATES:
240 Text |             replenishment with drink?~PROTARCHUS: I should say, of replenishment
241 Text |               and desires to be full?~PROTARCHUS: Clearly so.~SOCRATES: But
242 Text |           present or past experience?~PROTARCHUS: Impossible.~SOCRATES: And
243 Text |             surely desires something?~PROTARCHUS: Of course.~SOCRATES: He
244 Text |             he desires replenishment?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: Then there
245 Text |             apprehends replenishment?~PROTARCHUS: There must.~SOCRATES: And
246 Text |               supposed to be emptied?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: The only
247 Text |               other way can there be?~PROTARCHUS: I cannot imagine any other.~
248 Text |              you see the consequence?~PROTARCHUS: What is it?~SOCRATES: That
249 Text |          thing as desire of the body.~PROTARCHUS: Why so?~SOCRATES: Why,
250 Text |          reverse of his bodily state.~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And the
251 Text |         memory of the opposite state.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And the
252 Text |             their origin in the soul.~PROTARCHUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: The
253 Text |               any similar experience.~PROTARCHUS: Quite right.~SOCRATES:
254 Text |         consists in these affections.~PROTARCHUS: Of what affections, and
255 Text |        pleasure which succeeds to it.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And what
256 Text |               the intermediate state?~PROTARCHUS: What do you mean by ‘intermediate’?~
257 Text |             in an intermediate state?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Would
258 Text |             pained or wholly pleased?~PROTARCHUS: Nay, I should say that
259 Text |           SOCRATES: What do you mean, Protarchus, by the two pains? May not
260 Text |            times be quite in despair?~PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And
261 Text |             at the same time in pain?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Then
262 Text |               both pleasure and pain?~PROTARCHUS: I suppose so.~SOCRATES:
263 Text |             the single case possible.~PROTARCHUS: Quite true, Socrates.~SOCRATES:
264 Text |       occasion of raising a question?~PROTARCHUS: What question?~SOCRATES:
265 Text |             some true and some false?~PROTARCHUS: But how, Socrates, can
266 Text |             pains?~SOCRATES: And how, Protarchus, can there be true and false
267 Text |              true and false opinions?~PROTARCHUS: I grant that opinions may
268 Text |               a very serious enquiry.~PROTARCHUS: There I agree.~SOCRATES:
269 Text |             relevant to the argument.~PROTARCHUS: Surely.~SOCRATES: No tedious
270 Text |             said should be pertinent.~PROTARCHUS: Right.~SOCRATES: I am always
271 Text |            which has now been raised.~PROTARCHUS: How so?~SOCRATES: Do you
272 Text |               false, and others true?~PROTARCHUS: To be sure I do.~SOCRATES:
273 Text |               waking, mad or lunatic?~PROTARCHUS: So we have always held,
274 Text |            the truth of your opinion?~PROTARCHUS: I think that we should.~
275 Text |              such a thing as opinion?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And such
276 Text |             such a thing as pleasure?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And an opinion
277 Text |         opinion must be of something?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And a man
278 Text |              be pleased by something?~PROTARCHUS: Quite correct.~SOCRATES:
279 Text |             will still be an opinion?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And
280 Text |             real feeling of pleasure?~PROTARCHUS: Yes; that is also quite
281 Text |        opinion are both equally real?~PROTARCHUS: Yes; that is the question.~
282 Text |             think should be examined?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And further,
283 Text |         simple and devoid of quality?~PROTARCHUS: Clearly.~SOCRATES: But
284 Text |           indeed said long ago by us.~PROTARCHUS: Quite true.~SOCRATES: And
285 Text |              attaches to any of them, Protarchus, then we should speak of
286 Text |         opinion or of a bad pleasure?~PROTARCHUS: Quite true, Socrates.~SOCRATES:
287 Text |             the reverse of rightness?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And
288 Text |              right or rightly opined?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And
289 Text |               by any honourable name?~PROTARCHUS: Not if the pleasure is
290 Text |               is not true, but false?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly it does; and
291 Text |                SOCRATES: How eagerly, Protarchus, do you rush to the defence
292 Text |              the defence of pleasure!~PROTARCHUS: Nay, Socrates, I only repeat
293 Text |              falsehood and ignorance?~PROTARCHUS: There must be a very great
294 Text |          contemplate this difference.~PROTARCHUS: Lead, and I will follow.~
295 Text |               Well, then, my view is—~PROTARCHUS: What is it?~SOCRATES: We
296 Text |              a thing as true opinion?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And pleasure
297 Text |            and false opinion, I mean.~PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And
298 Text |           from memory and perception?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Might
299 Text |             something of this nature?~PROTARCHUS: Of what nature?~SOCRATES:
300 Text |             what it is which he sees.~PROTARCHUS: Very likely.~SOCRATES:
301 Text |               to interrogate himself.~PROTARCHUS: In what manner?~SOCRATES:
302 Text |              sees such an appearance.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: To which
303 Text |             to himself—‘It is a man.’~PROTARCHUS: Very good.~SOCRATES: Or
304 Text |               made by the shepherds.’~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And if he
305 Text |             now become a proposition.~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: But
306 Text |              for a considerable time.~PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: Well,
307 Text |       explanation of this phenomenon.~PROTARCHUS: What is your explanation?~
308 Text |            such times is like a book.~PROTARCHUS: How so?~SOCRATES: Memory
309 Text |         falsely, the result is false.~PROTARCHUS: I quite assent and agree
310 Text |             the chambers of the soul.~PROTARCHUS: Who is he?~SOCRATES: The
311 Text |               which he has described.~PROTARCHUS: But when and how does he
312 Text |             common mental phenomenon?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And
313 Text |            words false; are they not?~PROTARCHUS: They are.~SOCRATES: If
314 Text |            arises a further question.~PROTARCHUS: What is it?~SOCRATES: Whether
315 Text |          relation to the future also?~PROTARCHUS: I should say in relation
316 Text |           have to do with the future?~PROTARCHUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: And
317 Text |                and not to the future?~PROTARCHUS: To the future, very much.~
318 Text |             every stage of existence?~PROTARCHUS: Exactly.~SOCRATES: Answer
319 Text |           Answer me another question.~PROTARCHUS: What question?~SOCRATES:
320 Text |               of the gods; is he not?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly he is.~SOCRATES:
321 Text |               bad man is the reverse?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And all
322 Text |             always filled with hopes?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And
323 Text |              the minds of each of us?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And the
324 Text |      rejoicing over his good fortune.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And may
325 Text |               the bad false pictures?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: The
326 Text |             they are false pleasures.~PROTARCHUS: They are.~SOCRATES: The
327 Text |               good in true pleasures?~PROTARCHUS: Doubtless.~SOCRATES: Then
328 Text |               of a similar character?~PROTARCHUS: There are.~SOCRATES: And
329 Text |             past, present, or future?~PROTARCHUS: Quite true.~SOCRATES: And
330 Text |              opining; am I not right?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And must
331 Text |               but illusory character?~PROTARCHUS: How do you mean?~SOCRATES:
332 Text |            are never likely to exist.~PROTARCHUS: Yes, Socrates, that again
333 Text |             are they not often false?~PROTARCHUS: Quite so.~SOCRATES: And
334 Text |               they are true or false?~PROTARCHUS: In no other way.~SOCRATES:
335 Text |             so far as they are false.~PROTARCHUS: Nay, Socrates, that is
336 Text |            assist our final decision.~PROTARCHUS: Very true; that is to say,
337 Text |               I think that there are, Protarchus; but this is an opinion
338 Text |           rest upon a mere assertion.~PROTARCHUS: Very good.~SOCRATES: Then
339 Text |              grasp this new argument.~PROTARCHUS: Proceed.~SOCRATES: We were
340 Text |             the soul—do you remember?~PROTARCHUS: Yes, I remember that you
341 Text |           pain which was experienced.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: Then now
342 Text |           what happens in such cases.~PROTARCHUS: What am I to infer?~SOCRATES:
343 Text |               has been already shown.~PROTARCHUS: Clearly.~SOCRATES: And
344 Text |              to which we have agreed.~PROTARCHUS: What is it?~SOCRATES: That
345 Text |               the class of infinites.~PROTARCHUS: Certainly, we said so.~
346 Text |             we rightly judge of them?~PROTARCHUS: How can we?~SOCRATES: Is
347 Text |            pleasure against pleasure?~PROTARCHUS: Yes, such is our intention,
348 Text |               of pleasures and pains?~PROTARCHUS: Yes, Socrates, and in a
349 Text |           what we were saying before.~PROTARCHUS: What was that?~SOCRATES:
350 Text |               with their own falsity.~PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: But
351 Text |              side with the pleasures.~PROTARCHUS: Certainly, and for the
352 Text |              or pain is real or true.~PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES:
353 Text |          still more false than these.~PROTARCHUS: What are they, and how
354 Text |             also by growth and decay?~PROTARCHUS: Yes, that has been often
355 Text |            natural state is pleasure?~PROTARCHUS: Right.~SOCRATES: But now
356 Text |    experiences none of these changes.~PROTARCHUS: When can that be, Socrates?~
357 Text |              SOCRATES: Your question, Protarchus, does not help the argument.~
358 Text |           does not help the argument.~PROTARCHUS: Why not, Socrates?~SOCRATES:
359 Text |               me from repeating mine.~PROTARCHUS: And what was that?~SOCRATES:
360 Text |              was that?~SOCRATES: Why, Protarchus, admitting that there is
361 Text |            consequence if there were?~PROTARCHUS: You mean, what would happen
362 Text |           good or bad?~SOCRATES: Yes.~PROTARCHUS: Why then, Socrates, I should
363 Text |             ever flowing up and down.~PROTARCHUS: Yes, and their words are
364 Text |             the partner of my flight.~PROTARCHUS: How?~SOCRATES: To them
365 Text |             You must answer for them.~PROTARCHUS: The latter alternative
366 Text |            cause pleasures and pains?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: A better
367 Text |              way of speaking will be—~PROTARCHUS: What?~SOCRATES: If we say
368 Text |               lesser ones do neither.~PROTARCHUS: That, Socrates, is the
369 Text |              referring again appears.~PROTARCHUS: What life?~SOCRATES: The
370 Text |             either of pain or of joy.~PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: We
371 Text |             is neither; what say you?~PROTARCHUS: I should say as you do
372 Text |               the same with pleasure.~PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES:
373 Text |               mean by that statement?~PROTARCHUS: I think that by pleasure
374 Text |               third which is neither.~PROTARCHUS: Very good.~SOCRATES: Now,
375 Text |             be either gold or silver?~PROTARCHUS: Impossible.~SOCRATES: No
376 Text |               as pleasant or painful.~PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES:
377 Text |         persons who say and think so.~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And
378 Text |              they are free from pain?~PROTARCHUS: They say so.~SOCRATES:
379 Text |              that they have pleasure.~PROTARCHUS: I suppose not.~SOCRATES:
380 Text |              natures, they are wrong.~PROTARCHUS: But they are undoubtedly
381 Text |               and is called pleasant?~PROTARCHUS: But why, Socrates, do we
382 Text |            the reason.~SOCRATES: You, Protarchus, have clearly never heard
383 Text |               of our friend Philebus.~PROTARCHUS: And who may they be?~SOCRATES:
384 Text |           very existence of pleasure.~PROTARCHUS: Indeed!~SOCRATES: They
385 Text |              only avoidances of pain.~PROTARCHUS: And would you, Socrates,
386 Text |            bring her up for judgment.~PROTARCHUS: Well said.~SOCRATES: Then
387 Text |               at the least hard? You, Protarchus, shall answer these severe
388 Text |           gentlemen as you answer me.~PROTARCHUS: By all means, and I reply
389 Text |            extreme and most vehement?~PROTARCHUS: In that every one will
390 Text |            the pleasures of the body?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And
391 Text |               we shall come to grief.~PROTARCHUS: How will that be?~SOCRATES:
392 Text |               When we are in health.’~PROTARCHUS: Yes, that is the natural
393 Text |            have the greatest desires?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And do
394 Text |           satisfaction of their want?~PROTARCHUS: That is obvious as soon
395 Text |              deny her very existence.~PROTARCHUS: I think I follow you.~SOCRATES:
396 Text |        showing whether you do or not, Protarchus. Answer now, and tell me
397 Text |             Reflect before you speak.~PROTARCHUS: I understand you, and see
398 Text |              not in a virtuous state.~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And
399 Text |              makes them the greatest?~PROTARCHUS: To be sure we ought.~SOCRATES:
400 Text |             out of certain disorders.~PROTARCHUS: What disorders?~SOCRATES:
401 Text |               friends utterly detest.~PROTARCHUS: What pleasures?~SOCRATES:
402 Text |              in us?—Pleasure or pain?~PROTARCHUS: A villainous mixture of
403 Text |             introduce the argument, O Protarchus, with any personal reference
404 Text |         determine the point at issue.~PROTARCHUS: Then we had better proceed
405 Text |          which are mingled with pain?~PROTARCHUS: Exactly.~SOCRATES: There
406 Text |        pleasures and sometimes pains.~PROTARCHUS: How is that?~SOCRATES:
407 Text |             drive him to distraction.~PROTARCHUS: That description is very
408 Text |           other of them predominates?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: Of cases
409 Text |   juxtaposition of pleasure and pain.~PROTARCHUS: Quite so.~SOCRATES: Sometimes
410 Text |              irrational exclamations.~PROTARCHUS: Yes, indeed.~SOCRATES:
411 Text |              the happiest of mankind.~PROTARCHUS: That, Socrates, is a very
412 Text |             pleasures.~SOCRATES: Yes, Protarchus, quite true of the mixed
413 Text |             and pain coalesce in one.~PROTARCHUS: I believe that to be quite
414 Text |               of pleasures and pains.~PROTARCHUS: What is that?~SOCRATES:
415 Text |               purely mental feelings.~PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?~SOCRATES:
416 Text |              belong to the soul only?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And shall
417 Text |          lamentation and bereavement?~PROTARCHUS: Yes, there is a natural
418 Text |            smile through their tears?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly I do.~SOCRATES:
419 Text |         feeling of pain and pleasure?~PROTARCHUS: I do not quite understand
420 Text |               you.~SOCRATES: I admit, Protarchus, that there is some difficulty
421 Text |              of feelings at a comedy.~PROTARCHUS: There is, I think.~SOCRATES:
422 Text |               and pains will be less.~PROTARCHUS: Proceed.~SOCRATES: I have
423 Text |              that a pain of the soul?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And yet
424 Text |               at which he is pleased?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And
425 Text |     clownishness, are surely an evil?~PROTARCHUS: To be sure.~SOCRATES: From
426 Text |             nature of the ridiculous.~PROTARCHUS: Explain.~SOCRATES: The
427 Text |            the inscription at Delphi.~PROTARCHUS: You mean, Socrates, ‘Know
428 Text |               be, ‘Know not thyself.’~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And
429 Text |       Certainly.~SOCRATES: And now, O Protarchus, try to divide this into
430 Text |               divide this into three.~PROTARCHUS: Indeed I am afraid that
431 Text |            make the division for you?~PROTARCHUS: Yes, and what is more,
432 Text |       ignorance of self may be shown?~PROTARCHUS: What are they?~SOCRATES:
433 Text |            himself richer than he is.~PROTARCHUS: Yes, that is a very common
434 Text |              which he really has not.~PROTARCHUS: Of course.~SOCRATES: And
435 Text |             better men than they are.~PROTARCHUS: Yes, that is by far the
436 Text |              lying conceit of wisdom?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And
437 Text |             called an evil condition?~PROTARCHUS: Very evil.~SOCRATES: But
438 Text |              division a step further, Protarchus, if we would see in envy
439 Text |         mixture of pleasure and pain.~PROTARCHUS: How can we make the further
440 Text |            and the other the reverse.~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Let
441 Text |              in truth is, ridiculous.~PROTARCHUS: That is very true, but
442 Text |           examine the nature of envy.~PROTARCHUS: Proceed.~SOCRATES: Is not
443 Text |             also an unrighteous pain?~PROTARCHUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: There
444 Text |               misfortunes of enemies?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES:
445 Text |        misfortunes—is not that wrong?~PROTARCHUS: Undoubtedly.~SOCRATES:
446 Text |         ignorance was always an evil?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And the
447 Text |                are simply ridiculous?~PROTARCHUS: They are ridiculous.~SOCRATES:
448 Text |            theirs to be a misfortune?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And
449 Text |           pleasure in laughing at it?~PROTARCHUS: Clearly we feel pleasure.~
450 Text |               misfortunes of friends?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Then
451 Text |            laugh at the same instant.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And the
452 Text |               in endless other cases.~PROTARCHUS: I do not see how any one
453 Text |               often named; did I not?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: We may observe
454 Text |            sorrow and envy and anger.~PROTARCHUS: I see.~SOCRATES: Then many
455 Text |             other cases still remain?~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And
456 Text |               which Philebus demands.~PROTARCHUS: Very good, Socrates; in
457 Text |          natural and necessary order.~PROTARCHUS: Excellent.~SOCRATES: These,
458 Text |                both of body and mind.~PROTARCHUS: Then what pleasures, Socrates,
459 Text |              and unalloyed with pain.~PROTARCHUS: Once more, Socrates, I
460 Text |            you understand my meaning?~PROTARCHUS: I am trying to understand,
461 Text |       pleasures associated with them.~PROTARCHUS: Yes, there are such pleasures.~
462 Text |               two kinds of pleasures.~PROTARCHUS: I understand.~SOCRATES:
463 Text |             such hunger precede them.~PROTARCHUS: And this is the case.~SOCRATES:
464 Text |              not pains of forgetting?~PROTARCHUS: Not necessarily, but there
465 Text |        nothing to do with reflection.~PROTARCHUS: In that case you are right
466 Text |               many but of a very few.~PROTARCHUS: Quite true.~SOCRATES: And
467 Text |              class which has measure.~PROTARCHUS: Quite right, Socrates.~
468 Text |           considered about pleasures.~PROTARCHUS: What is it?~SOCRATES: When
469 Text |           these terms stand to truth?~PROTARCHUS: Why do you ask, Socrates?~
470 Text |          Socrates?~SOCRATES: Because, Protarchus, I should wish to test pleasure
471 Text |               by me and by all of us.~PROTARCHUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: Let
472 Text |      consideration a single instance.~PROTARCHUS: What instance shall we
473 Text |          first of all take whiteness.~PROTARCHUS: Very good.~SOCRATES: How
474 Text |           admixture of other colours?~PROTARCHUS: Clearly that which is most
475 Text |        unadulterated.~SOCRATES: True, Protarchus; and so the purest white,
476 Text |            truest and most beautiful?~PROTARCHUS: Right.~SOCRATES: And we
477 Text |             great deal that is mixed.~PROTARCHUS: Perfectly right.~SOCRATES:
478 Text |             pleasure of another kind.~PROTARCHUS: Assuredly; and the instance
479 Text |               to be grateful to them?~PROTARCHUS: What do they mean?~SOCRATES:
480 Text |               explain to you, my dear Protarchus, what they mean, by putting
481 Text |                by putting a question.~PROTARCHUS: Ask, and I will answer.~
482 Text |            ever in want of something.~PROTARCHUS: What manner of natures
483 Text |             ever, the other inferior.~PROTARCHUS: You speak riddles.~SOCRATES:
484 Text |            also brave lovers of them.~PROTARCHUS: I should think so.~SOCRATES:
485 Text |               are present everywhere.~PROTARCHUS: Yet a third time I must
486 Text |               There is no difficulty, Protarchus; the argument is only in
487 Text |           class subserve (absolutes).~PROTARCHUS: Your many repetitions make
488 Text |          meaning will become clearer.~PROTARCHUS: Very likely.~SOCRATES:
489 Text |               are two new principles.~PROTARCHUS: What are they?~SOCRATES:
490 Text |             and the other is essence.~PROTARCHUS: I readily accept from you
491 Text |               the sake of generation?~PROTARCHUS: You want to know whether
492 Text |            generation?~SOCRATES: Yes.~PROTARCHUS: By the gods, I wish that
493 Text |                SOCRATES: I mean, O my Protarchus, to ask whether you would
494 Text |         should ask the same question.~PROTARCHUS: Why do you not answer yourself,
495 Text |              you must take your part.~PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: My
496 Text |              to the whole of essence.~PROTARCHUS: Assuredly.~SOCRATES: Then
497 Text |             the sake of some essence?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And that
498 Text |          other class, my good friend.~PROTARCHUS: Most certainly.~SOCRATES:
499 Text |              class than that of good?~PROTARCHUS: Quite right.~SOCRATES:
500 Text |             of pleasure being a good.~PROTARCHUS: Assuredly.~SOCRATES: And