(...) The First Alcibiades
     Part
1501 Text |                ALCIBIADES: Clearly not.~SOCRATES: Then we were not altogether
1502 Text |                So much may be supposed.~SOCRATES: And he who knows not the
1503 Text |                  ALCIBIADES: Very true.~SOCRATES: And if he knows not the
1504 Text |              ALCIBIADES: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: Then such a man can never
1505 Text |                  ALCIBIADES: He cannot.~SOCRATES: Nor an economist?~ALCIBIADES:
1506 Text |                  ALCIBIADES: He cannot.~SOCRATES: He will not know what he
1507 Text |                ALCIBIADES: He will not.~SOCRATES: And will not he who is
1508 Text |                  ALCIBIADES: Assuredly.~SOCRATES: And if he falls into error
1509 Text |                ALCIBIADES: Yes, indeed.~SOCRATES: And failing, will he not
1510 Text |            miserable?~ALCIBIADES: Very.~SOCRATES: And what will become of
1511 Text |                 will be miserable also.~SOCRATES: Then he who is not wise
1512 Text |                  ALCIBIADES: He cannot.~SOCRATES: The bad, then, are miserable?~
1513 Text |                  ALCIBIADES: Yes, very.~SOCRATES: And if so, not he who has
1514 Text |            misery?~ALCIBIADES: Clearly.~SOCRATES: Cities, then, if they are
1515 Text |         ALCIBIADES: Indeed they do not.~SOCRATES: And you must give the citizens
1516 Text |                  ALCIBIADES: Certainly.~SOCRATES: But can a man give that
1517 Text |                 ALCIBIADES: Impossible.~SOCRATES: Then you or any one who
1518 Text |               ALCIBIADES: That is true.~SOCRATES: You have not therefore
1519 Text |            wisdom.~ALCIBIADES: Clearly.~SOCRATES: You and the state, if you
1520 Text |                  ALCIBIADES: Certainly.~SOCRATES: As I was saying before,
1521 Text |               to them?~ALCIBIADES: Yes.~SOCRATES: In that mirror you will
1522 Text |              own good?~ALCIBIADES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And so you will act rightly
1523 Text |              and well?~ALCIBIADES: Yes.~SOCRATES: In which case, I will be
1524 Text |                  I accept the security.~SOCRATES: But if you act unrighteously,
1525 Text |              ALCIBIADES: Very possibly.~SOCRATES: For if a man, my dear Alcibiades,
1526 Text |               ALCIBIADES: That is true.~SOCRATES: Or again, in a ship, if
1527 Text |              that they will all perish.~SOCRATES: And in like manner, in
1528 Text |                  ALCIBIADES: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Not tyrannical power, then,
1529 Text |               ALCIBIADES: That is true.~SOCRATES: And before they have virtue,
1530 Text |            ALCIBIADES: That is evident.~SOCRATES: And that which is better
1531 Text |               nobler?~ALCIBIADES: True.~SOCRATES: And what is nobler is more
1532 Text |                  ALCIBIADES: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Then to the bad man slavery
1533 Text |               better?~ALCIBIADES: True.~SOCRATES: Then vice is only suited
1534 Text |                 slave?~ALCIBIADES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And virtue to a freeman?~
1535 Text |               freeman?~ALCIBIADES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And, O my friend, is not
1536 Text |                  ALCIBIADES: Certainly, Socrates.~SOCRATES: And are you now
1537 Text |        ALCIBIADES: Certainly, Socrates.~SOCRATES: And are you now conscious
1538 Text |                 indeed of my own state.~SOCRATES: And do you know how to
1539 Text |                  ALCIBIADES: Yes, I do.~SOCRATES: How?~ALCIBIADES: By your
1540 Text |               ALCIBIADES: By your help, Socrates.~SOCRATES: That is not well
1541 Text |                 By your help, Socrates.~SOCRATES: That is not well said,
1542 Text |              What ought I to have said?~SOCRATES: By the help of God.~ALCIBIADES:
1543 Text |                 you shall be my master.~SOCRATES: O that is rare! My love
1544 Text |                 to think about justice.~SOCRATES: And I hope that you will


Gorgias
     Part
1545 Intro|                of his art from Gorgias, Socrates assumes the existence of
1546 Intro|                 two famous paradoxes of Socrates (paradoxes as they are to
1547 Intro|                 stages of the argument. Socrates is deferential towards Gorgias,
1548 Intro|                to contradict himself by Socrates, and the argument is transferred
1549 Intro|              has at last to be given by Socrates himself, but before he can
1550 Intro|              despots, have great power. Socrates denies that they have any
1551 Intro|                the argument, and leaves Socrates to arrive at the conclusion
1552 Intro|              dignity, and is treated by Socrates with considerable respect.
1553 Intro|                 public opinion, enables Socrates to detect him in a contradiction.
1554 Intro|            expresses his approbation of Socrates’ manner of approaching a
1555 Intro|           question; he is quite ‘one of Socrates’ sort, ready to be refuted
1556 Intro|                eager that Callicles and Socrates should have the game out.
1557 Intro|             youth, a runaway ‘colt,’ as Socrates describes him, who wanted
1558 Intro|               in the judicious hands of Socrates he is soon restored to good-humour,
1559 Intro|               as they appear to him, of Socrates with evident astonishment.
1560 Intro|               difficulty convinced that Socrates is in earnest; for if these
1561 Intro|             life. He has a good will to Socrates, whose talents he evidently
1562 Intro|            spirit of evil against which Socrates is contending, the spirit
1563 Intro|                 tide of public opinion. Socrates approaches his antagonist
1564 Intro|                 and matter of fact does Socrates become. A repartee of his
1565 Intro|         defending himself and attacking Socrates, whom he accuses of trifling
1566 Intro|               is easily turned round by Socrates, and only induced to continue
1567 Intro|        authority of Gorgias. Once, when Socrates is describing the manner
1568 Intro|                 truth of his words.~The Socrates of the Gorgias may be compared
1569 Intro|                may be compared with the Socrates of the Protagoras and Meno.
1570 Intro|      corresponding irony on the part of Socrates. He must speak, for philosophy
1571 Intro|              over him. He is aware that Socrates, the single real teacher
1572 Intro|             below. Then the position of Socrates and Callicles will be reversed;
1573 Intro|                 fixed at 405 B.C., when Socrates would already have been
1574 Intro|           characteristic declaration of Socrates that he is ignorant of the
1575 Intro|           Memorabilia of Xenophon, does Socrates express any doubt of the
1576 Intro|               argument in a figure.~(2) Socrates makes the singular remark,
1577 Intro|                 them is worth noticing: Socrates is and is not a public man.
1578 Intro|           inconsistency: for should not Socrates too have taught the citizens
1579 Intro|           argument from the beginning.’~Socrates, who is attended by his
1580 Intro|              friend and disciple Polus.~SOCRATES: Put the question to him,
1581 Intro|              CHAEREPHON: What question?~SOCRATES: Who is he?—such a question
1582 Intro|                the manner of his master Socrates. ‘One of the best of men,
1583 Intro|        rhetorical and balanced phrases. Socrates is dissatisfied at the length
1584 Intro|                 one.’ At the request of Socrates he promises to be brief;
1585 Intro|                as short as he pleases.’ Socrates would have him bestow his
1586 Intro|               excites the admiration of Socrates. The result of the discussion
1587 Intro|               do with external actions. Socrates extends this distinction
1588 Intro|            between them? ‘I should say, Socrates, that the art of persuasion,
1589 Intro|                 in the company, and not Socrates only, are eagerly asking:—
1590 Intro|            walls, and of Pericles, whom Socrates himself has heard speaking
1591 Intro|             they have learned from him.~Socrates would like to know before
1592 Intro|                 exhort them to proceed. Socrates gently points out the supposed
1593 Intro|                by the interrogations of Socrates?), but he thinks that great
1594 Intro|                argument to such a pass. Socrates ironically replies, that
1595 Intro|               the free state of Athens. Socrates retorts, that yet harder
1596 Intro|                that Polus shall ask and Socrates answer.~‘What is the art
1597 Intro|              Not an art at all, replies Socrates, but a thing which in your
1598 Intro|                 asks, ‘What thing?’ and Socrates answers, An experience or
1599 Intro|            explain his meaning to them, Socrates draws a distinction between
1600 Intro|                 their aboriginal chaos. Socrates apologizes for the length
1601 Intro|                is the good. ‘As if you, Socrates, would not envy the possessor
1602 Intro|               one whom he pleases.’ But Socrates replies that he has no wish
1603 Intro|          usurper of Macedonia. Does not Socrates think him happy?—Socrates
1604 Intro|               Socrates think him happy?—Socrates would like to know more
1605 Intro|                all the world, including Socrates, would like to have his
1606 Intro|                 like to have his place. Socrates dismisses the appeal to
1607 Intro|               depends upon numbers. But Socrates employs proof of another
1608 Intro|                 suffers punishment; but Socrates thinks him less miserable
1609 Intro|       sufficiently refuted by the fact. Socrates has only to compare the
1610 Intro|            crucified or burnt to death. Socrates replies, that if they are
1611 Intro|            laughs outright, which leads Socrates to remark that laughter
1612 Intro|                agrees with him. To this Socrates rejoins, that he is not
1613 Intro|               or when he is unpunished? Socrates replies, that what is done
1614 Intro|                 asks Chaerephon whether Socrates is in earnest, and on receiving
1615 Intro|                ask the same question of Socrates himself. For if such doctrines
1616 Intro|              what we ought to be doing.~Socrates replies in a style of playful
1617 Intro|              Pyrilampes; the beloved of Socrates are Alcibiades and philosophy.
1618 Intro|              this is the explanation of Socrates’ peculiarities also. He
1619 Intro|             nature, says Callicles. And Socrates is always playing between
1620 Intro|                them.~This is the truth, Socrates, as you will be convinced,
1621 Intro|              noble sentiments.~For you, Socrates, I have a regard, and therefore
1622 Intro|                the wealthy and be wise.~Socrates professes to have found
1623 Intro|           caution against philosophy to Socrates, which Socrates remembers
1624 Intro|           philosophy to Socrates, which Socrates remembers hearing him give
1625 Intro|                 saying the same things, Socrates.’ Yes, and on the same subjects
1626 Intro|               things! For the truth is, Socrates, that luxury and self-indulgence
1627 Intro|                 the rest is mere talk.’~Socrates compliments Callicles on
1628 Intro|               the dead would be happy.’ Socrates in reply is led into a half-serious,
1629 Intro|               same opinion still? ‘Yes, Socrates, and the figure expresses
1630 Intro|           topics. But he is reminded by Socrates that they are introduced,
1631 Intro|                 answer does not satisfy Socrates, who fears that he is losing
1632 Intro|              good, or with one another. Socrates disproves the first of these
1633 Intro|               interposition of Gorgias. Socrates, having already guarded
1634 Intro|                 the other. But this, as Socrates observes, is a return to
1635 Intro|          Callicles assents to this, and Socrates, finding that they are agreed
1636 Intro|              Pericles were still alive. Socrates replies that none of these
1637 Intro|              restive, and suggests that Socrates shall answer his own questions. ‘
1638 Intro|                 questions. ‘Then,’ says Socrates, ‘one man must do for two;’
1639 Intro|                 similarly imitate him.’ Socrates replies that he is not deaf,
1640 Intro|               of requiting his teacher.~Socrates concludes by finally asking,
1641 Intro|                 avoiding death, replies Socrates; and he has heard often
1642 Intro|           clearness is also apparent in Socrates himself, unless we suppose
1643 Intro|                 Callicles.~(2) Although Socrates professes to be convinced
1644 Intro|             must remind the reader that Socrates himself implies that he
1645 Intro|               this ground only, much as Socrates’ friends in the opening
1646 Intro|        self-regarding, considering that Socrates expressly mentions the duty
1647 Intro|               to the fate of his master Socrates. He is convinced that, somehow
1648 Intro|               he puts into the mouth of Socrates, or any other speaker who
1649 Intro|              probably share the fate of Socrates.~...~The irony of Plato
1650 Intro|         themselves. The disguises which Socrates assumes are like the parables
1651 Intro|               sake.’—Matt.~The words of Socrates are more abstract than the
1652 Intro|             often come out of evil. But Socrates would have us pass the same
1653 Intro|              This is the standard which Socrates holds up to us. Because
1654 Intro|               lose their character. But Socrates would speak to them, not
1655 Intro|               The ‘accustomed irony’ of Socrates adds a corollary to the
1656 Intro|               similar figure of speech, Socrates would have them use rhetoric,
1657 Intro|           deceived. And so the words of Socrates, which at first sounded
1658 Intro|                 will, but what we wish.~Socrates would teach us a lesson
1659 Intro|                 them, seems to have led Socrates to his famous thesis:—‘Virtue
1660 Intro|                 their consequences. But Socrates, or Plato for him, neither
1661 Intro|           hypocrisy which, according to Socrates, is the worst of the two.
1662 Intro|       influences of society.~Then comes Socrates, impressed as no other man
1663 Intro|              are disappointed. Then, as Socrates says, the cry of ingratitude
1664 Intro|         idealists in politics who, like Socrates in the Gorgias, find fault
1665 Intro|                 the whole. According to Socrates the true governor will find
1666 Intro|        gratitude of his own generation.~Socrates, who is not a politician
1667 Intro|             Lysias; the rival speech of Socrates and the recantation of it.
1668 Intro|         Theaetetus, of the midwifery of Socrates, is perhaps the only exception.
1669 Text |                THE DIALOGUE: Callicles, Socrates, Chaerephon, Gorgias, Polus.~
1670 Text |              fray, but not for a feast.~SOCRATES: And are we late for a feast?~
1671 Text |                 to us many fine things.~SOCRATES: It is not my fault, Callicles;
1672 Text |                 CHAEREPHON: Never mind, Socrates; the misfortune of which
1673 Text |                 matter, Chaerephon—does Socrates want to hear Gorgias?~CHAEREPHON:
1674 Text |                he shall exhibit to you.~SOCRATES: Very good, Callicles; but
1675 Text |                nothing like asking him, Socrates; and indeed to answer questions
1676 Text |               and that he would answer.~SOCRATES: How fortunate! will you
1677 Text |       CHAEREPHON: What shall I ask him?~SOCRATES: Ask him who he is.~CHAEREPHON:
1678 Text |           CHAEREPHON: What do you mean?~SOCRATES: I mean such a question
1679 Text |              proficient is the noblest.~SOCRATES: Polus has been taught how
1680 Text |              GORGIAS: What do you mean, Socrates?~SOCRATES: I mean that he
1681 Text |             What do you mean, Socrates?~SOCRATES: I mean that he has not
1682 Text |               why not ask him yourself?~SOCRATES: But I would much rather
1683 Text |                  What makes you say so, Socrates?~SOCRATES: Because, Polus,
1684 Text |             makes you say so, Socrates?~SOCRATES: Because, Polus, when Chaerephon
1685 Text |                was the noblest of arts?~SOCRATES: Yes, indeed, but that was
1686 Text |             profess?~GORGIAS: Rhetoric, Socrates, is my art.~SOCRATES: Then
1687 Text |          Rhetoric, Socrates, is my art.~SOCRATES: Then I am to call you a
1688 Text |              rhetorician?~GORGIAS: Yes, Socrates, and a good one too, if
1689 Text |                  I boast myself to be.’~SOCRATES: I should wish to do so.~
1690 Text |                  GORGIAS: Then pray do.~SOCRATES: And are we to say that
1691 Text |              Athens, but in all places.~SOCRATES: And will you continue to
1692 Text |                  GORGIAS: Some answers, Socrates, are of necessity longer;
1693 Text |                 be as short as any one.~SOCRATES: That is what is wanted,
1694 Text |            heard a man use fewer words.~SOCRATES: Very good then; as you
1695 Text |                 garments?~GORGIAS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And music is concerned
1696 Text |               melodies?~GORGIAS: It is.~SOCRATES: By Here, Gorgias, I admire
1697 Text |             your answers.~GORGIAS: Yes, Socrates, I do think myself good
1698 Text |              think myself good at that.~SOCRATES: I am glad to hear it; answer
1699 Text |                GORGIAS: With discourse.~SOCRATES: What sort of discourse,
1700 Text |            might get well?~GORGIAS: No.~SOCRATES: Then rhetoric does not
1701 Text |                 GORGIAS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: And yet rhetoric makes
1702 Text |                 to speak?~GORGIAS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And to understand that
1703 Text |              speak?~GORGIAS: Of course.~SOCRATES: But does not the art of
1704 Text |               sick?~GORGIAS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Then medicine also treats
1705 Text |                discourse?~GORGIAS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Of discourse concerning
1706 Text |             diseases?~GORGIAS: Just so.~SOCRATES: And does not gymnastic
1707 Text |               body?~GORGIAS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And the same, Gorgias,
1708 Text |                to do.~GORGIAS: Clearly.~SOCRATES: Then why, if you call rhetoric
1709 Text |             rhetoric?~GORGIAS: Because, Socrates, the knowledge of the other
1710 Text |           rhetoric treats of discourse.~SOCRATES: I am not sure whether I
1711 Text |                 are arts?~GORGIAS: Yes.~SOCRATES: As to the arts generally,
1712 Text |          perfectly conceive my meaning, Socrates.~SOCRATES: But there are
1713 Text |          conceive my meaning, Socrates.~SOCRATES: But there are other arts
1714 Text |                 sort?~GORGIAS: Exactly.~SOCRATES: And yet I do not believe
1715 Text |           GORGIAS: You are quite right, Socrates, in your apprehension of
1716 Text |             apprehension of my meaning.~SOCRATES: Well, then, let me now
1717 Text |                just now; he might say, ‘Socrates, what is arithmetic?’ and
1718 Text |                 ask, ‘Words about what, Socrates?’ and I should answer, that
1719 Text |               You would be quite right, Socrates.~SOCRATES: And now let us
1720 Text |               be quite right, Socrates.~SOCRATES: And now let us have from
1721 Text |                of words?~GORGIAS: True.~SOCRATES: Words which do what? I
1722 Text |               GORGIAS: To the greatest, Socrates, and the best of human things.~
1723 Text |               the best of human things.~SOCRATES: That again, Gorgias is
1724 Text |                 but what is your drift?~SOCRATES: I mean to say, that the
1725 Text |              the physician will say: ‘O Socrates, Gorgias is deceiving you,
1726 Text |              greater good can men have, Socrates?’ And after him the trainer
1727 Text |              will come and say, ‘I too, Socrates, shall be greatly surprised
1728 Text |             despise them all. ‘Consider Socrates,’ he will say, ‘whether
1729 Text |                 us.~GORGIAS: That good, Socrates, which is truly the greatest,
1730 Text |                in their several states.~SOCRATES: And what would you consider
1731 Text |                 persuade the multitude.~SOCRATES: Now I think, Gorgias, that
1732 Text |       definition seems to me very fair, Socrates; for persuasion is the chief
1733 Text |              the chief end of rhetoric.~SOCRATES: Then hear me, Gorgias,
1734 Text |                GORGIAS: What is coming, Socrates?~SOCRATES: I will tell you:
1735 Text |               What is coming, Socrates?~SOCRATES: I will tell you: I am very
1736 Text |              them?’~GORGIAS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And the reason for asking
1737 Text |                 figures?~GORGIAS: True.~SOCRATES: But if there had been no
1738 Text |                well?~GORGIAS: Quite so.~SOCRATES: Now I want to know about
1739 Text |                  GORGIAS: He persuades, Socrates,—there can be no mistake
1740 Text |               be no mistake about that.~SOCRATES: Again, if we take the arts
1741 Text |             number?~GORGIAS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And therefore persuade
1742 Text |               us of them?~GORGIAS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Then arithmetic as well
1743 Text |           persuasion?~GORGIAS: Clearly.~SOCRATES: And if any one asks us
1744 Text |               what.~GORGIAS: Very true.~SOCRATES: Then rhetoric is not the
1745 Text |              persuasion?~GORGIAS: True.~SOCRATES: Seeing, then, that not
1746 Text |          question?~GORGIAS: I think so.~SOCRATES: Then, if you approve the
1747 Text |              answer?~GORGIAS: I answer, Socrates, that rhetoric is the art
1748 Text |              about the just and unjust.~SOCRATES: And that, Gorgias, was
1749 Text |               that you are quite right, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Then let me raise
1750 Text |              are quite right, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Then let me raise another
1751 Text |                 learned’?~GORGIAS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And there is also ‘having
1752 Text |                believed’?~GORGIAS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And is the ‘having learned’
1753 Text |                GORGIAS: In my judgment, Socrates, they are not the same.~
1754 Text |                  they are not the same.~SOCRATES: And your judgment is right,
1755 Text |                 there is.~GORGIAS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Well, but is there a false
1756 Text |                 as a true?~GORGIAS: No.~SOCRATES: No, indeed; and this again
1757 Text |             differ.~GORGIAS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And yet those who have
1758 Text |            persuaded?~GORGIAS: Just so.~SOCRATES: Shall we then assume two
1759 Text |                  GORGIAS: By all means.~SOCRATES: And which sort of persuasion
1760 Text |            knowledge?~GORGIAS: Clearly, Socrates, that which only gives belief.~
1761 Text |                which only gives belief.~SOCRATES: Then rhetoric, as would
1762 Text |              about them?~GORGIAS: True.~SOCRATES: And the rhetorician does
1763 Text |                 GORGIAS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: Come, then, and let us
1764 Text |                 other things also which Socrates has just mentioned?’ How
1765 Text |              your way of leading us on, Socrates, and I will endeavour to
1766 Text |             suggestion of the builders.~SOCRATES: Such is the tradition,
1767 Text |          GORGIAS: And you will observe, Socrates, that when a decision has
1768 Text |                men who win their point.~SOCRATES: I had that in my admiring
1769 Text |              GORGIAS: A marvel, indeed, Socrates, if you only knew how rhetoric
1770 Text |               art of rhetoric! And yet, Socrates, rhetoric should be used
1771 Text |                 and not his instructor.~SOCRATES: You, Gorgias, like myself,
1772 Text |                  GORGIAS: I should say, Socrates, that I am quite the man
1773 Text |          audience cheering, Gorgias and Socrates, which shows their desire
1774 Text |            shall be the better pleased.~SOCRATES: I may truly say, Callicles,
1775 Text |                GORGIAS: After all this, Socrates, I should be disgraced if
1776 Text |                question which you like.~SOCRATES: Let me tell you then, Gorgias,
1777 Text |              rhetorician?~GORGIAS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Do you mean that you will
1778 Text |          persuasion?~GORGIAS: Quite so.~SOCRATES: You were saying, in fact,
1779 Text |                 the multitude,—that is.~SOCRATES: You mean to say, with the
1780 Text |         persuasion.~GORGIAS: Very true.~SOCRATES: But if he is to have more
1781 Text |              knows?~GORGIAS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Although he is not a physician:—
1782 Text |          physician:—is he?~GORGIAS: No.~SOCRATES: And he who is not a physician
1783 Text |                knows.~GORGIAS: Clearly.~SOCRATES: Then, when the rhetorician
1784 Text |                 the case supposed:—yes.~SOCRATES: And the same holds of the
1785 Text |                 who know?~GORGIAS: Yes, Socrates, and is not this a great
1786 Text |                 the professors of them?~SOCRATES: Whether the rhetorician
1787 Text |               you would.~GORGIAS: Well, Socrates, I suppose that if the pupil
1788 Text |                me these things as well.~SOCRATES: Say no more, for there
1789 Text |                you.~GORGIAS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Well, and is not he who
1790 Text |                carpenter?~GORGIAS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And he who has learned
1791 Text |                 musician?~GORGIAS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And he who has learned
1792 Text |                him.~GORGIAS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And in the same way, he
1793 Text |              just?~GORGIAS: To be sure.~SOCRATES: And he who is just may
1794 Text |             what is just?~GORGIAS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And must not the just man
1795 Text |               is clearly the inference.~SOCRATES: Surely, then, the just
1796 Text |                 GORGIAS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: And according to the argument
1797 Text |                 just man?~GORGIAS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And will therefore never
1798 Text |        injustice?~GORGIAS: Clearly not.~SOCRATES: But do you remember saying
1799 Text |             said?~GORGIAS: Yes, it was.~SOCRATES: But now we are affirming
1800 Text |        injustice at all?~GORGIAS: True.~SOCRATES: And at the very outset,
1801 Text |                this said?~GORGIAS: Yes.~SOCRATES: I was thinking at the time,
1802 Text |                 POLUS: And do even you, Socrates, seriously believe what
1803 Text |                argument to such a pass.~SOCRATES: Illustrious Polus, the
1804 Text |                  POLUS: What condition?~SOCRATES: That you contract, Polus,
1805 Text |                 many words as I please?~SOCRATES: Only to think, my friend,
1806 Text |              would you not?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And you, like him, invite
1807 Text |                 him?~POLUS: To be sure.~SOCRATES: And now, which will you
1808 Text |              ask; and do you answer me, Socrates, the same question which
1809 Text |               answer: What is rhetoric?~SOCRATES: Do you mean what sort of
1810 Text |             sort of an art?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: To say the truth, Polus,
1811 Text |              your opinion, is rhetoric?~SOCRATES: A thing which, as I was
1812 Text |                 art.~POLUS: What thing?~SOCRATES: I should say a sort of
1813 Text |                you to be an experience?~SOCRATES: That is my view, but you
1814 Text |                  An experience in what?~SOCRATES: An experience in producing
1815 Text |               rhetoric be a fine thing?~SOCRATES: What are you saying, Polus?
1816 Text |               was a sort of experience?~SOCRATES: Will you, who are so desirous
1817 Text |     gratification to me?~POLUS: I will.~SOCRATES: Will you ask me, what sort
1818 Text |              sort of an art is cookery?~SOCRATES: Not an art at all, Polus.~
1819 Text |                Polus.~POLUS: What then?~SOCRATES: I should say an experience.~
1820 Text |                you would explain to me.~SOCRATES: An experience in producing
1821 Text |          cookery and rhetoric the same?~SOCRATES: No, they are only different
1822 Text |              POLUS: Of what profession?~SOCRATES: I am afraid that the truth
1823 Text |                GORGIAS: A part of what, Socrates? Say what you mean, and
1824 Text |                mean, and never mind me.~SOCRATES: In my opinion then, Gorgias,
1825 Text |                of flattery is rhetoric?~SOCRATES: Will you understand my
1826 Text |            POLUS: And noble or ignoble?~SOCRATES: Ignoble, I should say,
1827 Text |                before.~GORGIAS: Indeed, Socrates, I cannot say that I understand
1828 Text |               that I understand myself.~SOCRATES: I do not wonder, Gorgias;
1829 Text |      counterfeit of a part of politics.~SOCRATES: I will try, then, to explain
1830 Text |              souls?~GORGIAS: Of course.~SOCRATES: You would further admit
1831 Text |           either of them?~GORGIAS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Which condition may not
1832 Text |             good health.~GORGIAS: True.~SOCRATES: And this applies not only
1833 Text |                GORGIAS: Yes, certainly.~SOCRATES: And now I will endeavour
1834 Text |              that rhetoric is flattery?~SOCRATES: Nay, I said a part of flattery;
1835 Text |               that they are flatterers?~SOCRATES: Is that a question or the
1836 Text |                 I am asking a question.~SOCRATES: Then my answer is, that
1837 Text |             very great power in states?~SOCRATES: Not if you mean to say
1838 Text |               is what I do mean to say.~SOCRATES: Then, if so, I think that
1839 Text |               any one whom they please.~SOCRATES: By the dog, Polus, I cannot
1840 Text |               asking a question of you.~SOCRATES: Yes, my friend, but you
1841 Text |               POLUS: How two questions?~SOCRATES: Why, did you not say just
1842 Text |              they please?~POLUS: I did.~SOCRATES: Well then, I say to you
1843 Text |                 not that a great power?~SOCRATES: Polus has already said
1844 Text |                  that is what I assert.~SOCRATES: No, by the great—what do
1845 Text |                 the power.~POLUS: I do.~SOCRATES: And would you maintain
1846 Text |             power?~POLUS: I should not.~SOCRATES: Then you must prove that
1847 Text |               POLUS: Yes; I admit that.~SOCRATES: How then can the rhetoricians
1848 Text |                 unless Polus can refute Socrates, and prove to him that they
1849 Text |               will?~POLUS: This fellow—~SOCRATES: I say that they do not
1850 Text |             they do as they think best?~SOCRATES: And I say so still.~POLUS:
1851 Text |            surely they do as they will?~SOCRATES: I deny it.~POLUS: But they
1852 Text |                do what they think best?~SOCRATES: Aye.~POLUS: That, Socrates,
1853 Text |             SOCRATES: Aye.~POLUS: That, Socrates, is monstrous and absurd.~
1854 Text |                is monstrous and absurd.~SOCRATES: Good words, good Polus,
1855 Text |                 may know what you mean.~SOCRATES: Do men appear to you to
1856 Text |             POLUS: Clearly, the health.~SOCRATES: And when men go on a voyage
1857 Text |               voyage.~POLUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And is not this universally
1858 Text |                 he does it.~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And are not all things
1859 Text |         indifferent?~POLUS: To be sure, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Wisdom and health
1860 Text |            POLUS: To be sure, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Wisdom and health and wealth
1861 Text |                 evils?~POLUS: I should.~SOCRATES: And the things which are
1862 Text |                evil?~POLUS: Exactly so.~SOCRATES: Are these indifferent things
1863 Text |               for the sake of the good.~SOCRATES: When we walk we walk for
1864 Text |                of the good?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And when we kill a man
1865 Text |                 good?~POLUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Men who do any of these
1866 Text |                of the good?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And did we not admit that
1867 Text |                 them?~POLUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: Then we do not will simply
1868 Text |            right?~POLUS: You are right.~SOCRATES: Hence we may infer, that
1869 Text |                best to him?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: But does he do what he
1870 Text |             POLUS: Well, I suppose not.~SOCRATES: Then if great power is
1871 Text |              state?~POLUS: He will not.~SOCRATES: Then I was right in saying
1872 Text |            wills?~POLUS: As though you, Socrates, would not like to have
1873 Text |                whom he pleased, Oh, no!~SOCRATES: Justly or unjustly, do
1874 Text |               not equally to be envied?~SOCRATES: Forbear, Polus!~POLUS:
1875 Text |            Polus!~POLUS: Why ‘forbear’?~SOCRATES: Because you ought not to
1876 Text |               of whom I spoke wretches?~SOCRATES: Yes, certainly they are.~
1877 Text |               is pitiable and wretched?~SOCRATES: No, I do not say that of
1878 Text |                now that he is wretched?~SOCRATES: Yes, my friend, if he killed
1879 Text |             wretched, and to be pitied?~SOCRATES: Not so much, Polus, as
1880 Text |                 POLUS: How can that be, Socrates?~SOCRATES: That may very
1881 Text |              How can that be, Socrates?~SOCRATES: That may very well be,
1882 Text |               injustice a greater evil?~SOCRATES: Certainly not.~POLUS: Then
1883 Text |               suffer than do injustice?~SOCRATES: I should not like either,
1884 Text |                not wish to be a tyrant?~SOCRATES: Not if you mean by tyranny
1885 Text |                 all things as you like.~SOCRATES: Well then, illustrious
1886 Text |               you would probably reply: Socrates, in that sort of way any
1887 Text |                 not such doing as this.~SOCRATES: But can you tell me why
1888 Text |             such a power?~POLUS: I can.~SOCRATES: Why then?~POLUS: Why, because
1889 Text |                 certain to be punished.~SOCRATES: And punishment is an evil?~
1890 Text |                 evil?~POLUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And you would admit once
1891 Text |                 good?~POLUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: About that you and I may
1892 Text |          supposed to agree?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Tell me, then, when do
1893 Text |                  POLUS: I would rather, Socrates, that you should answer
1894 Text |              well as ask that question.~SOCRATES: Well, Polus, since you
1895 Text |                 are hard of refutation, Socrates, but might not a child refute
1896 Text |            child refute that statement?~SOCRATES: Then I shall be very grateful
1897 Text |                to a friend.~POLUS: Yes, Socrates, and I need not go far or
1898 Text |                 who do wrong are happy.~SOCRATES: What events?~POLUS: You
1899 Text |                 the ruler of Macedonia?~SOCRATES: At any rate I hear that
1900 Text |               he is happy or miserable?~SOCRATES: I cannot say, Polus, for
1901 Text |                 whether a man is happy?~SOCRATES: Most certainly not.~POLUS:
1902 Text |               not.~POLUS: Then clearly, Socrates, you would say that you
1903 Text |             great king was a happy man?~SOCRATES: And I should speak the
1904 Text |              happiness consist in this?~SOCRATES: Yes, indeed, Polus, that
1905 Text |                 Archelaus is miserable?~SOCRATES: Yes, my friend, if he is
1906 Text |              Macedonian than Archelaus!~SOCRATES: I praised you at first,
1907 Text |              surely must think as I do.~SOCRATES: Not so, my simple friend,
1908 Text |              opinion?~POLUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: But I say that this is
1909 Text |                 will be most miserable.~SOCRATES: On the other hand, if the
1910 Text |              will be happy?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: But in my opinion, Polus,
1911 Text |         maintaining a strange doctrine, Socrates.~SOCRATES: I shall try to
1912 Text |             strange doctrine, Socrates.~SOCRATES: I shall try to make you
1913 Text |           injustice?~POLUS: Exactly so.~SOCRATES: And you said the opposite?~
1914 Text |               the opposite?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: I said also that the wicked
1915 Text |                  POLUS: By Zeus, I did.~SOCRATES: In your own opinion, Polus.~
1916 Text |                that I was in the right.~SOCRATES: You further said that the
1917 Text |           unpunished?~POLUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And I affirm that he is
1918 Text |              refutation than the other, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Say rather, Polus,
1919 Text |               than the other, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Say rather, Polus, impossible;
1920 Text |                 say, cannot be refuted?~SOCRATES: There again, noble Polus,
1921 Text |             tyrant’?~POLUS: Yes, I did.~SOCRATES: Then I say that neither
1922 Text |            POLUS: But do you not think, Socrates, that you have been sufficiently
1923 Text |                 allow? Ask the company.~SOCRATES: O Polus, I am not a public
1924 Text |               rather than do injustice?~SOCRATES: Yes, and you, too; I or
1925 Text |                you, nor I, nor any man.~SOCRATES: But will you answer?~POLUS:
1926 Text |               what you can have to say.~SOCRATES: Tell me, then, and you
1927 Text |               that suffering was worst.~SOCRATES: And which is the greater
1928 Text |         disgrace?—Answer.~POLUS: To do.~SOCRATES: And the greater disgrace
1929 Text |             evil?~POLUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: I understand you to say,
1930 Text |             evil?~POLUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: Let me ask a question of
1931 Text |                beauty?~POLUS: I cannot.~SOCRATES: And you would say of figures
1932 Text |             both?~POLUS: Yes, I should.~SOCRATES: And you would call sounds
1933 Text |                reason?~POLUS: I should.~SOCRATES: Laws and institutions also
1934 Text |               both?~POLUS: I think not.~SOCRATES: And may not the same be
1935 Text |           knowledge?~POLUS: To be sure, Socrates; and I very much approve
1936 Text |                of pleasure and utility.~SOCRATES: And deformity or disgrace
1937 Text |                 evil?~POLUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Then when of two beautiful
1938 Text |                 both?~POLUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And of two deformed things,
1939 Text |               it not be so?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: But then again, what was
1940 Text |              disgraceful?~POLUS: I did.~SOCRATES: Then, if doing wrong is
1941 Text |               follow?~POLUS: Of course.~SOCRATES: First, then, let us consider
1942 Text |                 the injured?~POLUS: No, Socrates; certainly not.~SOCRATES:
1943 Text |                Socrates; certainly not.~SOCRATES: Then they do not exceed
1944 Text |              exceed in pain?~POLUS: No.~SOCRATES: But if not in pain, then
1945 Text |             both?~POLUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: Then they can only exceed
1946 Text |               in the other?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: That is to say, in evil?~
1947 Text |              say, in evil?~POLUS: True.~SOCRATES: Then doing injustice will
1948 Text |              injustice?~POLUS: Clearly.~SOCRATES: But have not you and the
1949 Text |             than to suffer?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And that is now discovered
1950 Text |                 more evil?~POLUS: True.~SOCRATES: And would you prefer a
1951 Text |               POLUS: I should say ‘No.’~SOCRATES: Would any other man prefer
1952 Text |                way of putting the case, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Then I said truly,
1953 Text |             putting the case, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Then I said truly, Polus,
1954 Text |                 That is the conclusion.~SOCRATES: You see, Polus, when you
1955 Text |                 wrong?~POLUS: I should.~SOCRATES: And would you not allow
1956 Text |               your opinion.~POLUS: Yes, Socrates, I think that they are.~
1957 Text |                  I think that they are.~SOCRATES: Consider again:—Where there
1958 Text |                 POLUS: I should say so.~SOCRATES: And will not the patient
1959 Text |                is stricken?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And if the striker strikes
1960 Text |                or quickly?~POLUS: True.~SOCRATES: And the suffering to him
1961 Text |                who strikes?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And if a man burns, there
1962 Text |               burned?~POLUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And if he burns in excess
1963 Text |                 same way?~POLUS: Truly.~SOCRATES: And if he cuts, the same
1964 Text |              something cut?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And if the cutting be great
1965 Text |                 POLUS: That is evident.~SOCRATES: Then you would agree generally
1966 Text |              the agent?~POLUS: I agree.~SOCRATES: Then, as this is admitted,
1967 Text |               acting?~POLUS: Suffering, Socrates; there can be no doubt of
1968 Text |                can be no doubt of that.~SOCRATES: And suffering implies an
1969 Text |                agent?~POLUS: Certainly, Socrates; and he is the punisher.~
1970 Text |                 and he is the punisher.~SOCRATES: And he who punishes rightly,
1971 Text |            punishes justly?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And therefore he acts justly?~
1972 Text |             acts justly?~POLUS: Justly.~SOCRATES: Then he who is punished
1973 Text |                 POLUS: That is evident.~SOCRATES: And that which is just
1974 Text |           honourable?~POLUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Then the punisher does
1975 Text |                honourable?~POLUS: True.~SOCRATES: And if what is honourable,
1976 Text |               useful?~POLUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Then he who is punished
1977 Text |              good?~POLUS: That is true.~SOCRATES: Then he is benefited?~POLUS:
1978 Text |               is benefited?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Do I understand you to
1979 Text |                improved.~POLUS: Surely.~SOCRATES: Then he who is punished
1980 Text |                of his soul?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And is he not then delivered
1981 Text |               There is no greater evil.~SOCRATES: Again, in a man’s bodily
1982 Text |             deformity?~POLUS: I should.~SOCRATES: And do you not imagine
1983 Text |              her own?~POLUS: Of course.~SOCRATES: And this you would call
1984 Text |                 like?~POLUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: So then, in mind, body,
1985 Text |          disease, poverty?~POLUS: True.~SOCRATES: And which of the evils
1986 Text |                 POLUS: By far the most.~SOCRATES: And if the most disgraceful,
1987 Text |                POLUS: What do you mean, Socrates?~SOCRATES: I mean to say,
1988 Text |             What do you mean, Socrates?~SOCRATES: I mean to say, that is
1989 Text |                 both.~POLUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And now injustice and all
1990 Text |            POLUS: It has been admitted.~SOCRATES: And most disgraceful either
1991 Text |                 both?~POLUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And therefore to be unjust
1992 Text |              poor and sick?~POLUS: Nay, Socrates; the painfulness does not
1993 Text |              follow from your premises.~SOCRATES: Then, if, as you would
1994 Text |               the evil.~POLUS: Clearly.~SOCRATES: And that which exceeds
1995 Text |          greatest of evils?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Then injustice and intemperance,
1996 Text |                 POLUS: That is evident.~SOCRATES: Now, what art is there
1997 Text |               making money?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And what art frees us from
1998 Text |             medicine?~POLUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And what from vice and
1999 Text |               POLUS: To the physicians, Socrates.~SOCRATES: And to whom do
2000 Text |               the physicians, Socrates.~SOCRATES: And to whom do we go with