(...) Gorgias
     Part
2001 Text |                To the judges, you mean.~SOCRATES: —Who are to punish them?~
2002 Text |                punish them?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And do not those who rightly
2003 Text |                justice?~POLUS: Clearly.~SOCRATES: Then the art of money-making
2004 Text |                 POLUS: That is evident.~SOCRATES: Which, then, is the best
2005 Text |                Will you enumerate them?~SOCRATES: Money-making, medicine,
2006 Text |                justice.~POLUS: Justice, Socrates, far excels the two others.~
2007 Text |              far excels the two others.~SOCRATES: And justice, if the best,
2008 Text |          advantage or both?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: But is the being healed
2009 Text |            pleased?~POLUS: I think not.~SOCRATES: A useful thing, then?~POLUS:
2010 Text |                thing, then?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Yes, because the patient
2011 Text |                 well?~POLUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And would he be the happier
2012 Text |                was never out of health.~SOCRATES: Yes; for happiness surely
2013 Text |           having had them.~POLUS: True.~SOCRATES: And suppose the case of
2014 Text |           Clearly he who is not healed.~SOCRATES: And was not punishment
2015 Text |             which is vice?~POLUS: True.~SOCRATES: And justice punishes us,
2016 Text |               of our vice?~POLUS: True.~SOCRATES: He, then, has the first
2017 Text |               of evils.~POLUS: Clearly.~SOCRATES: And he has the second place,
2018 Text |                 from vice?~POLUS: True.~SOCRATES: That is to say, he who
2019 Text |                 punishment?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Then he lives worst, who,
2020 Text |            injustice?~POLUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: That is, he lives worst
2021 Text |                 Republic.)~POLUS: True.~SOCRATES: May not their way of proceeding,
2022 Text |                case?~POLUS: Yes, truly.~SOCRATES: He would seem as if he
2023 Text |             form?~POLUS: If you please.~SOCRATES: Is it not a fact that injustice,
2024 Text |             POLUS: That is quite clear.~SOCRATES: And further, that to suffer
2025 Text |                 this evil?~POLUS: True.~SOCRATES: And not to suffer, is to
2026 Text |        perpetuate the evil?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: To do wrong, then, is second
2027 Text |               all?~POLUS: That is true.~SOCRATES: Well, and was not this
2028 Text |                what I said?~POLUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And it has been proved
2029 Text |                 true?~POLUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Well, Polus, but if this
2030 Text |                great evil?~POLUS: True.~SOCRATES: And if he, or any one about
2031 Text |              with them?~POLUS: To that, Socrates, there can be but one answer.~
2032 Text |            there can be but one answer.~SOCRATES: Then rhetoric is of no
2033 Text |                  to that?~POLUS: To me, Socrates, what you are saying appears
2034 Text |           agreement with your premises.~SOCRATES: Is not this the conclusion,
2035 Text |            POLUS: Yes; it certainly is.~SOCRATES: And from the opposite point
2036 Text |                 Tell me, Chaerephon, is Socrates in earnest, or is he joking?~
2037 Text |              gods, and I will. Tell me, Socrates, are you in earnest, or
2038 Text |              what we ought to be doing?~SOCRATES: O Callicles, if there were
2039 Text |         contradict myself.~CALLICLES: O Socrates, you are a regular declaimer,
2040 Text |              stopped. For the truth is, Socrates, that you, who pretend to
2041 Text |                 things: for philosophy, Socrates, if pursued in moderation
2042 Text |                should like to beat him, Socrates; for, as I was saying, such
2043 Text |             satisfactory manner. Now I, Socrates, am very well inclined towards
2044 Text |               to his brother, that you, Socrates, are careless about the
2045 Text |                not be offended, my dear Socrates, for I am speaking out of
2046 Text |              penalty of death. And yet, Socrates, what is the value of~‘An
2047 Text |              honour, who is well to do.~SOCRATES: If my soul, Callicles,
2048 Text |        CALLICLES: What is your meaning, Socrates?~SOCRATES: I will tell you;
2049 Text |                 your meaning, Socrates?~SOCRATES: I will tell you; I think
2050 Text |             touchstone.~CALLICLES: Why?~SOCRATES: Because I am sure that
2051 Text |            saying, and so I still aver.~SOCRATES: And do you mean by the
2052 Text |                 that they are the same.~SOCRATES: Then the many are by nature
2053 Text |             laws?~CALLICLES: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Then the laws of the many
2054 Text |         superior?~CALLICLES: Very true.~SOCRATES: Then they are the laws
2055 Text |                 saying?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And since they are superior,
2056 Text |            nature good?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And are not the many of
2057 Text |               the many is what you say.~SOCRATES: Then not only custom but
2058 Text |          talking nonsense. At your age, Socrates, are you not ashamed to
2059 Text |               ipsissima verba are laws?~SOCRATES: Ho! my philosopher, is
2060 Text |             line?~CALLICLES: Certainly.~SOCRATES: I was thinking, Callicles,
2061 Text |            CALLICLES: You are ironical.~SOCRATES: No, by the hero Zethus,
2062 Text |                mean the more excellent.~SOCRATES: Do you not see that you
2063 Text |         assuredly, I do mean the wiser.~SOCRATES: Then according to you,
2064 Text |                 more than the inferior.~SOCRATES: Stop there, and let me
2065 Text |             food?~CALLICLES: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Either, then, he will have
2066 Text |                am not speaking of them.~SOCRATES: Well, but do you admit
2067 Text |                or ‘No.’~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And ought not the better
2068 Text |                Not of meats and drinks.~SOCRATES: I understand: then, perhaps,
2069 Text |           CALLICLES: Fudge about coats!~SOCRATES: Then the skilfullest and
2070 Text |               nonsense are you talking?~SOCRATES: Or, if this is not your
2071 Text |                talking in the same way, Socrates!~SOCRATES: Yes, Callicles,
2072 Text |                 the same way, Socrates!~SOCRATES: Yes, Callicles, and also
2073 Text |                to do with our argument.~SOCRATES: But why will you not tell
2074 Text |                faint from want of soul.~SOCRATES: See now, most excellent
2075 Text |               more than their subjects.~SOCRATES: But whether rulers or subjects
2076 Text |            CALLICLES: What do you mean?~SOCRATES: I mean that every man is
2077 Text |              his ‘ruling over himself’?~SOCRATES: A simple thing enough;
2078 Text |             those fools,—the temperate?~SOCRATES: Certainly:—any one may
2079 Text |           meaning.~CALLICLES: Quite so, Socrates; and they are really fools,
2080 Text |                 ruler in his city? Nay, Socrates, for you profess to be a
2081 Text |              worth. (Compare Republic.)~SOCRATES: There is a noble freedom,
2082 Text |           virtue?~CALLICLES: Yes; I do.~SOCRATES: Then those who want nothing
2083 Text |                 be the happiest of all.~SOCRATES: But surely life according
2084 Text |                  CALLICLES: The latter, Socrates, is more like the truth.~
2085 Text |                 is more like the truth.~SOCRATES: Well, I will tell you another
2086 Text |                 You do not convince me, Socrates, for the one who has filled
2087 Text |           superabundance of the influx.~SOCRATES: But the more you pour in,
2088 Text |           escape.~CALLICLES: Certainly.~SOCRATES: The life which you are
2089 Text |                 eating?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And he is to be thirsting
2090 Text |              the gratification of them.~SOCRATES: Capital, excellent; go
2091 Text |                a strange being you are, Socrates! a regular mob-orator.~SOCRATES:
2092 Text |         Socrates! a regular mob-orator.~SOCRATES: That was the reason, Callicles,
2093 Text |        scratcher would live pleasantly.~SOCRATES: And if pleasantly, then
2094 Text |                  CALLICLES: To be sure.~SOCRATES: But what if the itching
2095 Text |         CALLICLES: Are you not ashamed, Socrates, of introducing such topics
2096 Text |               topics into the argument?~SOCRATES: Well, my fine friend, but
2097 Text |                 that they are the same.~SOCRATES: You are breaking the original
2098 Text |                 what you are doing too, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Then we are both
2099 Text |                are doing too, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Then we are both doing
2100 Text |                others.~CALLICLES: That, Socrates, is only your opinion.~SOCRATES:
2101 Text |         Socrates, is only your opinion.~SOCRATES: And do you, Callicles,
2102 Text |                 CALLICLES: Indeed I do.~SOCRATES: Then, as you are in earnest,
2103 Text |               am in profound earnest.’)~SOCRATES: Well, if you are willing
2104 Text |         knowledge?~CALLICLES: There is.~SOCRATES: And were you not saying
2105 Text |            knowledge?~CALLICLES: I was.~SOCRATES: And you were speaking of
2106 Text |             CALLICLES: Certainly I was.~SOCRATES: And would you say that
2107 Text |              the same, O man of wisdom.~SOCRATES: And would you say that
2108 Text |         pleasure?~CALLICLES: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Well, then, let us remember
2109 Text |                And what does our friend Socrates, of Foxton, say—does he
2110 Text |                 assent to this, or not?~SOCRATES: He does not assent; neither
2111 Text |             each other?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And if they are opposed
2112 Text |            CALLICLES: What do you mean?~SOCRATES: Take the case of any bodily
2113 Text |                  CALLICLES: To be sure.~SOCRATES: But he surely cannot have
2114 Text |               CALLICLES: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: And when he has got rid
2115 Text |               CALLICLES: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: That would surely be marvellous
2116 Text |                absurd?~CALLICLES: Very.~SOCRATES: I suppose that he is affected
2117 Text |               in turns?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And he may have strength
2118 Text |                by fits?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: Or swiftness and slowness?~
2119 Text |         slowness?~CALLICLES: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And does he have and not
2120 Text |            CALLICLES: Certainly he has.~SOCRATES: If then there be anything
2121 Text |            CALLICLES: I entirely agree.~SOCRATES: Go back now to our former
2122 Text |                 are hungry is pleasant.~SOCRATES: I know; but still the actual
2123 Text |              not right?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And thirst, too, is painful?~
2124 Text |          painful?~CALLICLES: Yes, very.~SOCRATES: Need I adduce any more
2125 Text |              adduce any more instances.~SOCRATES: Very good. And you would
2126 Text |               pleasant?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And in the sentence which
2127 Text |           implies pain?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And the word ‘drinking’
2128 Text |               the want?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: There is pleasure in drinking?~
2129 Text |         drinking?~CALLICLES: Certainly.~SOCRATES: When you are thirsty?~SOCRATES:
2130 Text |         SOCRATES: When you are thirsty?~SOCRATES: And in pain?~CALLICLES:
2131 Text |                in pain?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: Do you see the inference:—
2132 Text |                 true?~CALLICLES: It is.~SOCRATES: You said also, that no
2133 Text |                  CALLICLES: Yes, I did.~SOCRATES: But you admitted, that
2134 Text |           pleasure?~CALLICLES: Clearly.~SOCRATES: Then pleasure is not the
2135 Text |               CALLICLES: I wish I knew, Socrates, what your quibbling means.~
2136 Text |              what your quibbling means.~SOCRATES: You know, Callicles, but
2137 Text |               in your admonition of me.~SOCRATES: Does not a man cease from
2138 Text |                the habitual trifling of Socrates; he is always arguing about
2139 Text |         Callicles, is not at stake. Let Socrates argue in his own fashion.~
2140 Text |                  CALLICLES: Well, then, Socrates, you shall ask these little
2141 Text |            Gorgias wishes to have them.~SOCRATES: I envy you, Callicles,
2142 Text |                moment?~CALLICLES: True.~SOCRATES: And if he is hungry, or
2143 Text |           moment?~CALLICLES: Very true.~SOCRATES: Then he ceases from pain
2144 Text |                 moment?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: But he does not cease from
2145 Text |              but what is the inference?~SOCRATES: Why, my friend, the inference
2146 Text |              with them?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And do you call the fools
2147 Text |               so?~CALLICLES: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And did you never see a
2148 Text |                 CALLICLES: Yes, I have.~SOCRATES: And a foolish man too?~
2149 Text |                 but what is your drift?~SOCRATES: Nothing particular, if
2150 Text |                 CALLICLES: Yes, I have.~SOCRATES: And did you ever see a
2151 Text |              sorrowing?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: Which rejoice and sorrow
2152 Text |                 think, in that respect.~SOCRATES: Enough: And did you ever
2153 Text |                  CALLICLES: To be sure.~SOCRATES: And which rejoiced most
2154 Text |                 rejoiced about equally.~SOCRATES: No matter; then the cowards,
2155 Text |            rejoice?~CALLICLES: Greatly.~SOCRATES: And the foolish; so it
2156 Text |             would seem?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And are only the cowards
2157 Text |             CALLICLES: Both are pained.~SOCRATES: And are they equally pained?~
2158 Text |                cowards are more pained.~SOCRATES: And are they not better
2159 Text |                  CALLICLES: I dare say.~SOCRATES: Then are the foolish and
2160 Text |              the brave?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: But surely the wise and
2161 Text |                the bad?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: Then the good and the bad
2162 Text |                 degree?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: Then are the good and bad
2163 Text |                 not know what you mean.~SOCRATES: Why, do you not remember
2164 Text |             CALLICLES: Yes, I remember.~SOCRATES: And are not these pleasures
2165 Text |          rejoice?~CALLICLES: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Then those who rejoice
2166 Text |              with them?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And those who are in pain
2167 Text |              with them?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And would you still say
2168 Text |              evil?~CALLICLES: I should.~SOCRATES: Then those who rejoice
2169 Text |              pain evil?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: The degrees of good and
2170 Text |                of pain?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: Have the wise man and the
2171 Text |                 should say that he has.~SOCRATES: Help me then to draw out
2172 Text |                be good?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And the foolish man and
2173 Text |             evil?~CALLICLES: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And he who has joy is good?~
2174 Text |                is good?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And he who is in pain is
2175 Text |             evil?~CALLICLES: Certainly.~SOCRATES: The good and evil both
2176 Text |                of them?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: Then must we not infer,
2177 Text |               making admissions to you, Socrates; and I remark that if a
2178 Text |                are good and others bad?~SOCRATES: Alas, Callicles, how unfair
2179 Text |            others evil?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: The beneficial are good,
2180 Text |                  CALLICLES: To be sure.~SOCRATES: And the beneficial are
2181 Text |              some evil?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: Take, for example, the
2182 Text |             evil?~CALLICLES: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And in the same way there
2183 Text |                  CALLICLES: To be sure.~SOCRATES: And ought we not to choose
2184 Text |            pains?~CALLICLES: Certainly.~SOCRATES: But not the evil?~CALLICLES:
2185 Text |               evil?~CALLICLES: Clearly.~SOCRATES: Because, if you remember,
2186 Text |                 two?~CALLICLES: I will.~SOCRATES: Then pleasure, like everything
2187 Text |                  CALLICLES: To be sure.~SOCRATES: But can every man choose
2188 Text |            CALLICLES: He must have art.~SOCRATES: Let me now remind you of
2189 Text |                CALLICLES: No, I do not.~SOCRATES: Then I will explain myself
2190 Text |                 agree?~CALLICLES: I do.~SOCRATES: Then I will proceed, and
2191 Text |               oblige my friend Gorgias.~SOCRATES: And is this notion true
2192 Text |            Equally true of two or more.~SOCRATES: Then a man may delight
2193 Text |              interests?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: Can you tell me the pursuits
2194 Text |              else?~CALLICLES: I assent.~SOCRATES: And is not the same true
2195 Text |              festivals?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And what do you say of
2196 Text |                 mistake about Cinesias, Socrates.~SOCRATES: And what do you
2197 Text |               about Cinesias, Socrates.~SOCRATES: And what do you say of
2198 Text |              That is my notion of them.~SOCRATES: And as for the Muse of
2199 Text |                  There can be no doubt, Socrates, that Tragedy has her face
2200 Text |          gratification of the audience.~SOCRATES: And is not that the sort
2201 Text |                  CALLICLES: Quite true.~SOCRATES: Well now, suppose that
2202 Text |                  CALLICLES: To be sure.~SOCRATES: And this speech is addressed
2203 Text |                 people?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: Then poetry is a sort of
2204 Text |              rhetoric?~CALLICLES: True.~SOCRATES: And do not the poets in
2205 Text |           rhetoricians?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: Then now we have discovered
2206 Text |                  CALLICLES: Quite true.~SOCRATES: Very good. And what do
2207 Text |               are such as you describe.~SOCRATES: I am contented with the
2208 Text |              who are at present living.~SOCRATES: Well, then, can you mention
2209 Text |                whom you heard yourself?~SOCRATES: Yes, Callicles, they were
2210 Text |        CALLICLES: No, indeed, I cannot.~SOCRATES: Yet, surely, Callicles,
2211 Text |                 I am ready to admit it.~SOCRATES: Then the house in which
2212 Text |         disorder, evil?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And the same is true of
2213 Text |                 a ship?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And the same may be said
2214 Text |             human body?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And what would you say
2215 Text |                our previous admissions.~SOCRATES: What is the name which
2216 Text |               mean health and strength?~SOCRATES: Yes, I do; and what is
2217 Text |                 give the name yourself, Socrates?~SOCRATES: Well, if you
2218 Text |                name yourself, Socrates?~SOCRATES: Well, if you had rather
2219 Text |                or not?~CALLICLES: True.~SOCRATES: And ‘lawful’ and ‘law’
2220 Text |                not?~CALLICLES: Granted.~SOCRATES: And will not the true rhetorician
2221 Text |              agree?~CALLICLES: I agree.~SOCRATES: For what use is there,
2222 Text |                I will not say No to it.~SOCRATES: For in my opinion there
2223 Text |              not right?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: When a man is in health
2224 Text |             admit that?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And does not the same argument
2225 Text |            improvement.~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: Such treatment will be
2226 Text |                  CALLICLES: To be sure.~SOCRATES: And to restrain her from
2227 Text |           chastise her?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: Then restraint or chastisement
2228 Text |                I do not understand you, Socrates, and I wish that you would
2229 Text |            would ask some one who does.~SOCRATES: Here is a gentleman who
2230 Text |                 of civility to Gorgias.~SOCRATES: What are we to do, then?
2231 Text |               shall judge for yourself.~SOCRATES: Well, but people say that ‘
2232 Text |                 How tyrannical you are, Socrates! I wish that you and your
2233 Text |                 else to argue with you.~SOCRATES: But who else is willing?—
2234 Text |                 and answering yourself?~SOCRATES: Must I then say with Epicharmus, ‘
2235 Text |                 ways.~GORGIAS: I think, Socrates, that we should not go our
2236 Text |              what more you have to say.~SOCRATES: I too, Gorgias, should
2237 Text |              never mind me, but get on.~SOCRATES: Listen to me, then, while
2238 Text |                  Go on, my good fellow.~SOCRATES: Then I shall proceed to
2239 Text |            CALLICLES: Yes, quite right.~SOCRATES: Seeing then that there
2240 Text |               the power; that is clear.~SOCRATES: And what do you say of
2241 Text |               will?~CALLICLES: Granted, Socrates, if you will only have done.~
2242 Text |                you will only have done.~SOCRATES: Then, as would appear,
2243 Text |        injustice?~CALLICLES: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And what art will protect
2244 Text |            power.~CALLICLES: Well said, Socrates; and please to observe how
2245 Text |                you when you talk sense.~SOCRATES: Think and tell me whether
2246 Text |              this?~CALLICLES: I should.~SOCRATES: But when the tyrant is
2247 Text |                CALLICLES: That is true.~SOCRATES: Neither will he be the
2248 Text |          CALLICLES: That again is true.~SOCRATES: Then the only friend worth
2249 Text |                that so?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And if a young man begins
2250 Text |               possible?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And in this way he will
2251 Text |           injury?~CALLICLES: Very true.~SOCRATES: But will he also escape
2252 Text |              punished?~CALLICLES: True.~SOCRATES: And by the imitation of
2253 Text |              contrive somehow or other, Socrates, to invert everything: do
2254 Text |                and take away his goods?~SOCRATES: Excellent Callicles, I
2255 Text |               just the provoking thing?~SOCRATES: Nay, not to a man of sense,
2256 Text |               and very good advice too.~SOCRATES: Well, my friend, but what
2257 Text |                  CALLICLES: No, indeed.~SOCRATES: And yet surely swimming
2258 Text |            Somehow or other your words, Socrates, always appear to me to
2259 Text |                Compare Symp.: 1 Alcib.)~SOCRATES: The reason is, Callicles,
2260 Text |             drew?~CALLICLES: Very true.~SOCRATES: And the one which had pleasure
2261 Text |                so, if you will have it.~SOCRATES: And the other had in view
2262 Text |                  CALLICLES: Quite true.~SOCRATES: And must we not have the
2263 Text |                 certainly, if you like.~SOCRATES: Well, then, if you and
2264 Text |             Callicles?~CALLICLES: True.~SOCRATES: In the second place, we
2265 Text |             true?~CALLICLES: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And does not the same hold
2266 Text |                 me, Well, but how about Socrates himself, has he good health?
2267 Text |                 thing?~CALLICLES: True.~SOCRATES: And now, my friend, as
2268 Text |         CALLICLES: You are contentious, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Nay, I ask you,
2269 Text |              are contentious, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Nay, I ask you, not from
2270 Text |              citizens.~CALLICLES: I do.~SOCRATES: But if they were good,
2271 Text |               of worse?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And, therefore, when Pericles
2272 Text |                 CALLICLES: Very likely.~SOCRATES: Nay, my friend, ‘likely’
2273 Text |              difference does that make?~SOCRATES: None; only I should like
2274 Text |              CALLICLES: You heard that, Socrates, from the laconising set
2275 Text |              set who bruise their ears.~SOCRATES: But what I am going to
2276 Text |                prove Pericles’ badness?~SOCRATES: Why, surely you would say
2277 Text |                 favour of saying ‘yes.’~SOCRATES: And will you also do me
2278 Text |             CALLICLES: Certainly he is.~SOCRATES: And was not Pericles a
2279 Text |                 of men?~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: And if he was a good political
2280 Text |                  CALLICLES: Quite true.~SOCRATES: And are not just men gentle,
2281 Text |               mind?~CALLICLES: I agree.~SOCRATES: And yet he really did make
2282 Text |              want me to agree with you?~SOCRATES: Yes, if I seem to you to
2283 Text |                CALLICLES: Granted then.~SOCRATES: And if they were more savage,
2284 Text |               CALLICLES: Granted again.~SOCRATES: Then upon this view, Pericles
2285 Text |                That is, upon your view.~SOCRATES: Nay, the view is yours,
2286 Text |          CALLICLES: I should think not.~SOCRATES: Well, but if so, the truth
2287 Text |                  CALLICLES: But surely, Socrates, no living man ever came
2288 Text |               them in his performances.~SOCRATES: O, my dear friend, I say
2289 Text |            there is some one to answer?~SOCRATES: I suppose that I can; just
2290 Text |               Yes, it appears so to me.~SOCRATES: Do you never hear our professors
2291 Text |               who are good for nothing?~SOCRATES: I would rather say, why
2292 Text |             CALLICLES: Certainly it is.~SOCRATES: If they were right in saying
2293 Text |        injustice.~CALLICLES: Very true.~SOCRATES: And he who removes injustice
2294 Text |                Protag.)~CALLICLES: Yes.~SOCRATES: Then we have found the
2295 Text |               we have found the reason.~SOCRATES: But when the point is,
2296 Text |         dishonourable?~CALLICLES: True.~SOCRATES: And why? Because only such
2297 Text |                 true?~CALLICLES: It is.~SOCRATES: Then to which service of
2298 Text |               the servant of the State.~SOCRATES: The flatterer? well, sir,
2299 Text |                  CALLICLES: The Mysian, Socrates, or what you please. For
2300 Text |               the consequences will be—~SOCRATES: Do not repeat the old story—
2301 Text |                  How confident you are, Socrates, that you will never come
2302 Text |              miserable and mean person.~SOCRATES: Then I must indeed be a
2303 Text |                CALLICLES: By all means.~SOCRATES: I think that I am the only
2304 Text |                  CALLICLES: I dare say.~SOCRATES: Would he not be utterly
2305 Text |          CALLICLES: He certainly would.~SOCRATES: And I too shall be treated
2306 Text |            CALLICLES: And do you think, Socrates, that a man who is thus
2307 Text |      defenceless is in a good position?~SOCRATES: Yes, Callicles, if he have
2308 Text |                then we shall have done.~SOCRATES: Listen, then, as story-tellers


Ion
     Part
2309 Intro|           contrast between the irony of Socrates and the transparent vanity
2310 Intro|            festival of the Panathenaea. Socrates admires and envies the rhapsode’
2311 Intro|           solved. The solution given by Socrates is as follows:—~The rhapsode
2312 Intro|                 his hair stands on end. Socrates is of opinion that a man
2313 Intro|              him. Ion is confident that Socrates would never think him mad
2314 Intro|                embellishments of Homer. Socrates asks whether he can speak
2315 Intro|         anything in Homer. But, rejoins Socrates, when Homer speaks of the
2316 Intro|               suspicion of the irony of Socrates, eagerly embraces the alternative
2317 Intro|                 in the contrast between Socrates and Ion. Yet here, as in
2318 Intro|               here, as in the Republic, Socrates shows a sympathy with the
2319 Intro|                 which, in the Republic, Socrates attributes to dramatic performances
2320 Text |                PERSONS OF THE DIALOGUE: Socrates, Ion.~SOCRATES: Welcome,
2321 Text |                DIALOGUE: Socrates, Ion.~SOCRATES: Welcome, Ion. Are you from
2322 Text |               city of Ephesus?~ION: No, Socrates; but from Epidaurus, where
2323 Text |              the festival of Asclepius.~SOCRATES: And do the Epidaurians
2324 Text |            sorts of musical performers.~SOCRATES: And were you one of the
2325 Text |                 the first prize of all, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Well done; and
2326 Text |                 prize of all, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Well done; and I hope that
2327 Text |              And I will, please heaven.~SOCRATES: I often envy the profession
2328 Text |                 envied.~ION: Very true, Socrates; interpretation has certainly
2329 Text |            Homer as I have, or as many.~SOCRATES: I am glad to hear you say
2330 Text |              with them.~ION: Certainly, Socrates; and you really ought to
2331 Text |                 give me a golden crown.~SOCRATES: I shall take an opportunity
2332 Text |                in himself quite enough.~SOCRATES: Are there any things about
2333 Text |          opinion there are a good many.~SOCRATES: And can you interpret better
2334 Text |            interpret them equally well, Socrates, where they agree.~SOCRATES:
2335 Text |             Socrates, where they agree.~SOCRATES: But what about matters
2336 Text |                to say,—~ION: Very true:~SOCRATES: Would you or a good prophet
2337 Text |               disagree?~ION: A prophet.~SOCRATES: And if you were a prophet,
2338 Text |               they agree?~ION: Clearly.~SOCRATES: But how did you come to
2339 Text |            Homer sings?~ION: Very true, Socrates.~SOCRATES: And do not the
2340 Text |               ION: Very true, Socrates.~SOCRATES: And do not the other poets
2341 Text |             sing of the same?~ION: Yes, Socrates; but not in the same way
2342 Text |               in the same way as Homer.~SOCRATES: What, in a worse way?~ION:
2343 Text |               ION: Yes, in a far worse.~SOCRATES: And Homer in a better way?~
2344 Text |                 is incomparably better.~SOCRATES: And yet surely, my dear
2345 Text |                 good speaker?~ION: Yes.~SOCRATES: And he who judges of the
2346 Text |                speakers?~ION: The same.~SOCRATES: And he will be the arithmetician?~
2347 Text |                arithmetician?~ION: Yes.~SOCRATES: Well, and in discussions
2348 Text |                  ION: Clearly the same.~SOCRATES: And who is he, and what
2349 Text |               name?~ION: The physician.~SOCRATES: And speaking generally,
2350 Text |             being discussed.~ION: True.~SOCRATES: Is not the same person
2351 Text |              skilful in both?~ION: Yes.~SOCRATES: And you say that Homer
2352 Text |                I am right in saying so.~SOCRATES: And if you knew the good
2353 Text |            inferior?~ION: That is true.~SOCRATES: Then, my dear friend, can
2354 Text |             same things?~ION: Why then, Socrates, do I lose attention and
2355 Text |                 and have plenty to say?~SOCRATES: The reason, my friend,
2356 Text |            poetry is a whole.~ION: Yes.~SOCRATES: And when any one acquires
2357 Text |                  Ion?~ION: Yes, indeed, Socrates; I very much wish that you
2358 Text |                 hear you wise men talk.~SOCRATES: O that we were wise, Ion,
2359 Text |             painting a whole?~ION: Yes.~SOCRATES: And there are and have
2360 Text |                 good and bad?~ION: Yes.~SOCRATES: And did you ever know any
2361 Text |              never known such a person.~SOCRATES: Or did you ever know of
2362 Text |                 no more than the other.~SOCRATES: And if I am not mistaken,
2363 Text |               cannot deny what you say, Socrates. Nevertheless I am conscious
2364 Text |             tell me the reason of this.~SOCRATES: I perceive, Ion; and I
2365 Text |                  Ion?~ION: Yes, indeed, Socrates, I feel that you are; for
2366 Text |               things of the Gods to us.~SOCRATES: And you rhapsodists are
2367 Text |              There again you are right.~SOCRATES: Then you are the interpreters
2368 Text |           interpreters?~ION: Precisely.~SOCRATES: I wish you would frankly
2369 Text |               proof strikes home to me, Socrates. For I must frankly confess
2370 Text |                end and my heart throbs.~SOCRATES: Well, Ion, and what are
2371 Text |                 he not?~ION: No indeed, Socrates, I must say that, strictly
2372 Text |               is not in his right mind.~SOCRATES: And are you aware that
2373 Text |                time of payment arrives.~SOCRATES: Do you know that the spectator
2374 Text |         inspiration.~ION: That is good, Socrates; and yet I doubt whether
2375 Text |              think this to be the case.~SOCRATES: I should like very much
2376 Text |                  ION: There is no part, Socrates, about which I do not speak
2377 Text |               of that I can assure you.~SOCRATES: Surely not about things
2378 Text |              which I have no knowledge?~SOCRATES: Why, does not Homer speak
2379 Text |         remember, and will repeat them.~SOCRATES: Tell me then, what Nestor
2380 Text |              catching the stone (Il.).’~SOCRATES: Enough. Now, Ion, will
2381 Text |                The charioteer, clearly.~SOCRATES: And will the reason be
2382 Text |                that will be the reason.~SOCRATES: And every art is appointed
2383 Text |           medicine?~ION: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: Nor do we know by the art
2384 Text |           medicine?~ION: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: And this is true of all
2385 Text |          differences of arts?~ION: Yes.~SOCRATES: You would argue, as I should,
2386 Text |                are different?~ION: Yes.~SOCRATES: Yes, surely; for if the
2387 Text |      acknowledge that we did?~ION: Yes.~SOCRATES: Tell me, then, what I was
2388 Text |                ION: That is my opinion, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Then he who has
2389 Text |                is my opinion, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Then he who has no knowledge
2390 Text |               that art?~ION: Very true.~SOCRATES: Then which will be a better
2391 Text |        charioteer?~ION: The charioteer.~SOCRATES: Why, yes, because you are
2392 Text |                 a charioteer.~ION: Yes.~SOCRATES: And the art of the rhapsode
2393 Text |               the charioteer?~ION: Yes.~SOCRATES: And if a different knowledge,
2394 Text |           different matters?~ION: True.~SOCRATES: You know the passage in
2395 Text |               ION: The art of medicine.~SOCRATES: And when Homer says,~‘And
2396 Text |         expressed or not?~ION: Clearly, Socrates, the art of the fisherman.~
2397 Text |               the art of the fisherman.~SOCRATES: Come now, suppose that
2398 Text |               to say to me: ‘Since you, Socrates, are able to assign different
2399 Text |                And you are quite right, Socrates, in saying so.~SOCRATES:
2400 Text |                 Socrates, in saying so.~SOCRATES: Yes, Ion, and you are right
2401 Text |                 passages, I should say, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Not all, Ion,
2402 Text |                 I should say, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Not all, Ion, surely. Have
2403 Text |              Why, what am I forgetting?~SOCRATES: Do you not remember that
2404 Text |       charioteer?~ION: Yes, I remember.~SOCRATES: And you admitted that being
2405 Text |                 of knowledge?~ION: Yes.~SOCRATES: Then upon your own showing
2406 Text |                 exclude certain things, Socrates.~SOCRATES: You mean to say
2407 Text |               certain things, Socrates.~SOCRATES: You mean to say that you
2408 Text |               ruler and what a subject.~SOCRATES: Do you mean that a rhapsode
2409 Text |               the pilot will know best.~SOCRATES: Or will the rhapsode know
2410 Text |               to say?~ION: He will not.~SOCRATES: But he will know what a
2411 Text |                 ought to say?~ION: Yes.~SOCRATES: Suppose the slave to be
2412 Text |             cows?~ION: No, he will not.~SOCRATES: But he will know what a
2413 Text |               working of wool?~ION: No.~SOCRATES: At any rate he will know
2414 Text |          rhapsode will be sure to know.~SOCRATES: Well, but is the art of
2415 Text |                 a general ought to say.~SOCRATES: Why, yes, Ion, because
2416 Text |                 my skill as a horseman.~SOCRATES: And if you judged of performers
2417 Text |                as a horseman?~ION: Yes.~SOCRATES: And in judging of the general’
2418 Text |                difference between them.~SOCRATES: What do you mean? Do you
2419 Text |                  Yes, one and the same.~SOCRATES: Then he who is a good rhapsode
2420 Text |                general?~ION: Certainly, Socrates.~SOCRATES: And he who is
2421 Text |               ION: Certainly, Socrates.~SOCRATES: And he who is a good general
2422 Text |                  No; I do not say that.~SOCRATES: But you do say that he
2423 Text |                general.~ION: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And you are the best of
2424 Text |           rhapsodes?~ION: Far the best, Socrates.~SOCRATES: And are you the
2425 Text |                 Far the best, Socrates.~SOCRATES: And are you the best general,
2426 Text |          general, Ion?~ION: To be sure, Socrates; and Homer was my master.~
2427 Text |                and Homer was my master.~SOCRATES: But then, Ion, what in
2428 Text |               want a general?~ION: Why, Socrates, the reason is, that my
2429 Text |            enough generals of your own.~SOCRATES: My good Ion, did you never
2430 Text |            Cyzicus?~ION: Who may he be?~SOCRATES: One who, though a foreigner,
2431 Text |            There is a great difference, Socrates, between the two alternatives;
2432 Text |       inspiration is by far the nobler.~SOCRATES: Then, Ion, I shall assume


Laches
     Part
2433 Intro|          opinion; but they suggest that Socrates should be invited to take
2434 Intro|               to the hour of his death. Socrates is also known to Nicias,
2435 Intro|                 Delium (compare Symp.).~Socrates, as he is younger than either
2436 Intro|          invidious remarks. And now let Socrates be taken into counsel. As
2437 Intro|             they differ he must decide.~Socrates would rather not decide
2438 Intro|           memory. He earnestly requests Socrates to remain;—in this showing,
2439 Intro|             quite willing to learn from Socrates, because his actions, in
2440 Intro|                correspond to his words.~Socrates proceeds: We might ask who
2441 Intro|              the battle of Plataea. (2) Socrates wants a more general definition,
2442 Intro|             contradiction to be solved? Socrates and Laches are not set ‘
2443 Intro|                 which he has heard from Socrates himself, to the effect that (
2444 Intro|                Laches derides this; and Socrates enquires, ‘What sort of
2445 Intro|               sophistries of this sort. Socrates resumes the argument. Courage
2446 Intro|               all the two generals, and Socrates, the hero of Delium, are
2447 Intro|              old and elder men, of whom Socrates is the youngest.~First is
2448 Intro|              never heard of the fame of Socrates, his son; they belong to
2449 Intro|              taught. The recognition of Socrates by Lysimachus is extremely
2450 Intro|              supposed to be a hearer of Socrates; the other is only acquainted
2451 Intro|              delighted with the hits of Socrates; and is disposed to be angry
2452 Intro|                 before the dialectic of Socrates; and Nicias appears from
2453 Intro|             terrible in the future. But Socrates denies that the knowledge
2454 Intro|                position which elsewhere Socrates is not unwilling to admit,
2455 Intro|              practised by Laches and by Socrates, and also the manner in
2456 Intro|                both is only realized in Socrates himself.~The Dialogue offers
2457 Intro|               which Laches fell. But if Socrates was more than seventy years
2458 Text |             Their sons. Nicias, Laches, Socrates.~LYSIMACHUS: You have seen
2459 Text |              you not consult our friend Socrates about the education of the
2460 Text |            LYSIMACHUS: Why, Laches, has Socrates ever attended to matters
2461 Text |                reached my time of life, Socrates and Nicias and Laches, fall
2462 Text |             home, and often speaking of Socrates in terms of the highest
2463 Text |               boys, whether this is the Socrates of whom you have often spoken?~
2464 Text |                 I am delighted to hear, Socrates, that you maintain the name
2465 Text |               which is accorded to you, Socrates, by faithful witnesses and
2466 Text |              advantageously instructed?~SOCRATES: I will endeavour to advise
2467 Text |            NICIAS: I have no objection, Socrates; and my opinion is that
2468 Text |                 as I said at first, ask Socrates, and do not let him go until
2469 Text |                 ask this favour of you, Socrates; as is the more necessary
2470 Text |              our two friends you agree.~SOCRATES: What, Lysimachus, are you
2471 Text |         majority?~LYSIMACHUS: Why, yes, Socrates; what else am I to do?~SOCRATES:
2472 Text |         Socrates; what else am I to do?~SOCRATES: And would you do so too,
2473 Text |           master?~MELESIAS: The latter, Socrates; as would surely be reasonable.~
2474 Text |             would surely be reasonable.~SOCRATES: His one vote would be worth
2475 Text |              four?~MELESIAS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And for this reason, as
2476 Text |          numbers?~MELESIAS: To be sure.~SOCRATES: Must we not then first
2477 Text |                 MELESIAS: That is true.~SOCRATES: Great care, then, is required
2478 Text |            matter?~MELESIAS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Suppose, as I was just
2479 Text |                 I think that we should.~SOCRATES: But would there not arise
2480 Text |          MELESIAS: I do not understand.~SOCRATES: Let me try to make my meaning
2481 Text |                of the art.~NICIAS: Why, Socrates, is not the question whether
2482 Text |              art of fighting in armour?~SOCRATES: Yes, Nicias; but there
2483 Text |                 NICIAS: About the eyes.~SOCRATES: And when he considers whether
2484 Text |               the bridle?~NICIAS: True.~SOCRATES: And in a word, when he
2485 Text |               means?~NICIAS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And when you call in an
2486 Text |                view?~NICIAS: Most true.~SOCRATES: And at present we have
2487 Text |             soul of youth?~NICIAS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And we are enquiring, Which
2488 Text |             teachers?~LACHES: Well but, Socrates; did you never observe that
2489 Text |               who have, in some things?~SOCRATES: Yes, Laches, I have observed
2490 Text |            works.~LACHES: That is true.~SOCRATES: And therefore, Laches and
2491 Text |             would have you say to them: Socrates avers that he has no knowledge
2492 Text |                 approve of the words of Socrates, my friends; but you, Nicias
2493 Text |              answer the questions which Socrates asks, if you will: for I
2494 Text |        objection, suppose that you take Socrates into partnership; and do
2495 Text |                that you have only known Socrates’ father, and have no acquaintance
2496 Text |               have no acquaintance with Socrates himself: at least, you can
2497 Text |                intellectual affinity to Socrates and enters into conversation
2498 Text |              when he is once entangled, Socrates will not let him go until
2499 Text |                 to be cross-examined by Socrates is neither unusual nor unpleasant;
2500 Text |               knew all along that where Socrates was, the argument would