(...) Phaedrus
     Part
3501 Text |            motion?~PHAEDRUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: The art of disputation,
3502 Text |              PHAEDRUS: How do you mean?~SOCRATES: Let me put the matter thus:
3503 Text |                the difference is small.~SOCRATES: And you will be less likely
3504 Text |              once?~PHAEDRUS: Of course.~SOCRATES: He, then, who would deceive
3505 Text |              things?~PHAEDRUS: He must.~SOCRATES: And if he is ignorant of
3506 Text |          ignorant?~PHAEDRUS: He cannot.~SOCRATES: And when men are deceived
3507 Text |         PHAEDRUS: Yes, that is the way.~SOCRATES: Then he who would be a
3508 Text |                  PHAEDRUS: He will not.~SOCRATES: He then, who being ignorant
3509 Text |         PHAEDRUS: That may be expected.~SOCRATES: Shall I propose that we
3510 Text |               wanting in illustrations.~SOCRATES: Yes; and the two speeches
3511 Text |             will only please to get on.~SOCRATES: Suppose that you read me
3512 Text |              lover. For lovers repent—’~SOCRATES: Enough:—Now, shall I point
3513 Text |             those words?~PHAEDRUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Every one is aware that
3514 Text |              will you explain yourself?~SOCRATES: When any one speaks of
3515 Text |               all?~PHAEDRUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: But when any one speaks
3516 Text |         ourselves?~PHAEDRUS: Precisely.~SOCRATES: Then in some things we
3517 Text |                 PHAEDRUS: That is true.~SOCRATES: In which are we more likely
3518 Text |                 in the uncertain class.~SOCRATES: Then the rhetorician ought
3519 Text |                 an excellent principle.~SOCRATES: Yes; and in the next place
3520 Text |          referred.~PHAEDRUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Now to which class does
3521 Text |                 greatest possible good?~SOCRATES: Capital. But will you tell
3522 Text |                you did, and no mistake.~SOCRATES: Then I perceive that the
3523 Text |                 not find what you want.~SOCRATES: Read, that I may have his
3524 Text |               when their love is over.’~SOCRATES: Here he appears to have
3525 Text |                  PHAEDRUS: Yes, indeed, Socrates; he does begin at the end.~
3526 Text |               he does begin at the end.~SOCRATES: Then as to the other topics—
3527 Text |              principles of composition.~SOCRATES: At any rate, you will allow
3528 Text |             whole?~PHAEDRUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Can this be said of the
3529 Text |              remarkable in the epitaph?~SOCRATES: It is as follows:—~‘I am
3530 Text |                of that oration of ours.~SOCRATES: Well, I will say no more
3531 Text |                  PHAEDRUS: In what way?~SOCRATES: The two speeches, as you
3532 Text |           PHAEDRUS: And right manfully.~SOCRATES: You should rather say ‘
3533 Text |                madness.’~PHAEDRUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And of madness there were
3534 Text |             convention.~PHAEDRUS: True.~SOCRATES: The divine madness was
3535 Text |           pleasure in listening to you.~SOCRATES: Let us take this instance
3536 Text |             PHAEDRUS: What do you mean?~SOCRATES: I mean to say that the
3537 Text |                PHAEDRUS: What are they?~SOCRATES: First, the comprehension
3538 Text |                 is the other principle, Socrates?~SOCRATES: The second principle
3539 Text |              other principle, Socrates?~SOCRATES: The second principle is
3540 Text |          benefits.~PHAEDRUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: I am myself a great lover
3541 Text |                the dark about rhetoric.~SOCRATES: What do you mean? The remains
3542 Text |             found in books of rhetoric?~SOCRATES: Yes; thank you for reminding
3543 Text |                 the art?~PHAEDRUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Then follows the statement
3544 Text |                the excellent Theodorus.~SOCRATES: Yes; and he tells how refutation
3545 Text |          PHAEDRUS: Well done, Prodicus!~SOCRATES: Then there is Hippias the
3546 Text |                with him.~PHAEDRUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And there is also Polus,
3547 Text |             something of the same sort?~SOCRATES: Yes, rules of correct diction
3548 Text |             remind the hearers of them.~SOCRATES: I have now said all that
3549 Text |                 nothing very important.~SOCRATES: Leave the unimportant and
3550 Text |               power in public meetings.~SOCRATES: It has. But I should like
3551 Text |              PHAEDRUS: Give an example.~SOCRATES: I will. Suppose a person
3552 Text |                  when,’ and ‘how much.’~SOCRATES: And suppose that he were
3553 Text |                 of the art of medicine.~SOCRATES: And suppose a person were
3554 Text |               another and to the whole.~SOCRATES: But I do not suppose that
3555 Text |           itself.’~PHAEDRUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And will not Sophocles
3556 Text |        physician?~PHAEDRUS: Quite true.~SOCRATES: And if Adrastus the mellifluous
3557 Text |           little patience, Phaedrus and Socrates, they would say; you should
3558 Text |                PHAEDRUS: I quite admit, Socrates, that the art of rhetoric
3559 Text |           persuasion is to be acquired.~SOCRATES: The perfection which is
3560 Text |                 In what direction then?~SOCRATES: I conceive Pericles to
3561 Text |                 PHAEDRUS: What of that?~SOCRATES: All the great arts require
3562 Text |            speaking.~PHAEDRUS: Explain.~SOCRATES: Rhetoric is like medicine.~
3563 Text |             medicine.~PHAEDRUS: How so?~SOCRATES: Why, because medicine has
3564 Text |              training.~PHAEDRUS: There, Socrates, I suspect that you are
3565 Text |             suspect that you are right.~SOCRATES: And do you think that you
3566 Text |             whole. (Compare Charmides.)~SOCRATES: Yes, friend, and he was
3567 Text |              nature.~PHAEDRUS: I agree.~SOCRATES: Then consider what truth
3568 Text |               may very likely be right, Socrates.~SOCRATES: The method which
3569 Text |              likely be right, Socrates.~SOCRATES: The method which proceeds
3570 Text |              soul.~PHAEDRUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: His whole effort is directed
3571 Text |              conviction.~PHAEDRUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Then clearly, Thrasymachus
3572 Text |                soul.~PHAEDRUS: Exactly.~SOCRATES: He will explain, secondly,
3573 Text |             acted upon.~PHAEDRUS: True.~SOCRATES: Thirdly, having classified
3574 Text |               hit upon a very good way.~SOCRATES: Yes, that is the true and
3575 Text |           PHAEDRUS: What is our method?~SOCRATES: I cannot give you the exact
3576 Text |                  PHAEDRUS: Let me hear.~SOCRATES: Oratory is the art of enchanting
3577 Text |              say, is this, Phaedrus and Socrates, your account of the so-called
3578 Text |            PHAEDRUS: He must take this, Socrates, for there is no possibility
3579 Text |                such an art is not easy.~SOCRATES: Very true; and therefore
3580 Text |                 I can think of nothing.~SOCRATES: Suppose I tell you something
3581 Text |                me.~PHAEDRUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: May not ‘the wolf,’ as
3582 Text |               what can be said for him.~SOCRATES: He will argue that there
3583 Text |               rhetoric do actually say, Socrates. I have not forgotten that
3584 Text |                 point is all-important.~SOCRATES: I dare say that you are
3585 Text |           PHAEDRUS: Certainly, he does.~SOCRATES: I believe that he has a
3586 Text |          Phaedrus?~PHAEDRUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Bless me, what a wonderfully
3587 Text |               What shall we say to him?~SOCRATES: Let us tell him that, before
3588 Text |                here.~PHAEDRUS: I think, Socrates, that this is admirable,
3589 Text |         admirable, if only practicable.~SOCRATES: But even to fail in an
3590 Text |             honourable.~PHAEDRUS: True.~SOCRATES: Enough appears to have
3591 Text |          speaking.~PHAEDRUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: But there is something
3592 Text |                 writing.~PHAEDRUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Do you know how you can
3593 Text |           PHAEDRUS: No, indeed. Do you?~SOCRATES: I have heard a tradition
3594 Text |                say that you have heard.~SOCRATES: At the Egyptian city of
3595 Text |                 reality.~PHAEDRUS: Yes, Socrates, you can easily invent tales
3596 Text |                or of any other country.~SOCRATES: There was a tradition in
3597 Text |                 his view about letters.~SOCRATES: He would be a very simple
3598 Text |            PHAEDRUS: That is most true.~SOCRATES: I cannot help feeling,
3599 Text |                That again is most true.~SOCRATES: Is there not another kind
3600 Text |                 and what is his origin?~SOCRATES: I mean an intelligent word
3601 Text |         properly no more than an image?~SOCRATES: Yes, of course that is
3602 Text |              perfection?~PHAEDRUS: Yes, Socrates, that will be his way when
3603 Text |               as you say, only in play.~SOCRATES: And can we suppose that
3604 Text |                PHAEDRUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: Then he will not seriously
3605 Text |                 No, that is not likely.~SOCRATES: No, that is not likely—
3606 Text |             spent.~PHAEDRUS: A pastime, Socrates, as noble as the other is
3607 Text |             about justice and the like.~SOCRATES: True, Phaedrus. But nobler
3608 Text |                  Far nobler, certainly.~SOCRATES: And now, Phaedrus, having
3609 Text |                  About what conclusion?~SOCRATES: About Lysias, whom we censured,
3610 Text |             would repeat what was said.~SOCRATES: Until a man knows the truth
3611 Text |                was our view, certainly.~SOCRATES: Secondly, as to the censure
3612 Text |             show—?~PHAEDRUS: Show what?~SOCRATES: That whether Lysias or
3613 Text |             world.~PHAEDRUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: But he who thinks that
3614 Text |         assuredly my desire and prayer.~SOCRATES: And now the play is played
3615 Text |               would you assign to them?~SOCRATES: Wise, I may not call them;
3616 Text |                PHAEDRUS: Very suitable.~SOCRATES: And he who cannot rise
3617 Text |         law-maker.~PHAEDRUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Now go and tell this to
3618 Text |              ought not to be forgotten.~SOCRATES: Who is he?~PHAEDRUS: Isocrates
3619 Text |              how shall we describe him?~SOCRATES: Isocrates is still young,
3620 Text |                What would you prophesy?~SOCRATES: I think that he has a genius
3621 Text |                is abated let us depart.~SOCRATES: Should we not offer up
3622 Text |                 PHAEDRUS: By all means.~SOCRATES: Beloved Pan, and all ye
3623 Text |              have all things in common.~SOCRATES: Let us go.~     >


Philebus
     Part
3624 Intro|                 of his companions, that Socrates shall answer his own questions,
3625 Intro|                is worthy of remark. The Socrates of the Philebus is devoid
3626 Intro|                side by the arguments of Socrates. The instincts of ingenuous
3627 Intro|           convinced by the arguments of Socrates. They bear a very faded
3628 Intro|                farewell to Philebus and Socrates,’ we may now consider the
3629 Intro|               from outward objects. But Socrates seems to intimate that the
3630 Intro|                in the Gorgias, in which Socrates dilates on the pleasures
3631 Intro|               in the two dialogues. For Socrates is far from implying that
3632 Intro|                 on between Philebus and Socrates. The argument is now transferred
3633 Intro|               to the cause of pleasure.~Socrates suggests that they shall
3634 Intro|                 second. They agree, and Socrates opens the game by enlarging
3635 Intro|                 are alike. Yes, retorts Socrates, pleasure is like pleasure,
3636 Intro|               drift of this remark; and Socrates proceeds to ask how he can
3637 Intro|               in which pleasure is one, Socrates may retort by saying that
3638 Intro|               under the impression that Socrates means to discuss the common
3639 Intro|             body, and the like wonders. Socrates has long ceased to see any
3640 Intro|                 imperfectly answered by Socrates in what follows.~We speak
3641 Intro|               of grammar.~‘But whither, Socrates, are you going? And what
3642 Intro|                of pleasure and wisdom:’ Socrates replies, that before we
3643 Intro|             absolute good. Yes, retorts Socrates, and also to pain the character
3644 Intro|                 denial for the present, Socrates proceeds to show that some
3645 Intro|            forget and disown her.~‘But, Socrates, I have heard Gorgias say
3646 Intro|               to Gorgias or Philebus or Socrates, but ask, on behalf of the
3647 Intro|                of them (why I do them).~Socrates, as we learn from the Memorabilia
3648 Intro|               and caprice. The Platonic Socrates pursues the same vein of
3649 Intro|          therefore justified in calling Socrates the first utilitarian; as
3650 Intro|               which seem so far from us—Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, the Stoics,
3651 Intro|                 we not found that which Socrates and Plato ‘grew old in seeking’?
3652 Intro|             than men were in the age of Socrates and Plato, who, in their
3653 Intro|             another, to prove to us, as Socrates would have said, that they
3654 Intro|      presocratic philosophers, but from Socrates himself.~We have not yet
3655 Intro|               more than human awe which Socrates expresses about the names
3656 Intro|        comprehended under the satire of Socrates. Let us observe the religious
3657 Text |                PERSONS OF THE DIALOGUE: Socrates, Protarchus, Philebus.~SOCRATES:
3658 Text |         Socrates, Protarchus, Philebus.~SOCRATES: Observe, Protarchus, the
3659 Text |               PROTARCHUS: By all means.~SOCRATES: Philebus was saying that
3660 Text |                Nothing could be fairer, Socrates.~SOCRATES: And do you, Protarchus,
3661 Text |              could be fairer, Socrates.~SOCRATES: And do you, Protarchus,
3662 Text |            Philebus has left the field.~SOCRATES: Surely the truth about
3663 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Shall we further agree—~
3664 Text |             agree—~PROTARCHUS: To what?~SOCRATES: That you and I must now
3665 Text |          PROTARCHUS: Yes, by all means.~SOCRATES: And you say that pleasure,
3666 Text |                state?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And what if there be a
3667 Text |               wisdom.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: Or suppose that the better
3668 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And what do you say, Philebus?~
3669 Text |                 of your words. And now, Socrates, whether Philebus is pleased
3670 Text |              proceed with the argument.~SOCRATES: Then let us begin with
3671 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Very good.~SOCRATES: The awe which I always
3672 Text |                 alike!~PROTARCHUS: Why, Socrates, they are opposed in so
3673 Text |         pleasure,—that is, like itself?~SOCRATES: Yes, my good friend, just
3674 Text |                invalidate the argument?~SOCRATES: Why, I shall reply, that
3675 Text |           PROTARCHUS: What do you mean, Socrates? Do you think that any one
3676 Text |                are good and others bad?~SOCRATES: And yet you will acknowledge
3677 Text |              far as they are pleasures.~SOCRATES: That is a return to the
3678 Text |           PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?~SOCRATES: Why, I mean to say, that
3679 Text |            PROTARCHUS: How do you mean?~SOCRATES: Shall I, Protarchus, have
3680 Text |              PROTARCHUS: What question?~SOCRATES: Ask me whether wisdom and
3681 Text |           PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?~SOCRATES: The sciences are a numerous
3682 Text |                 and different sciences.~SOCRATES: And let us have no concealment,
3683 Text |         PROTARCHUS: Certainly we ought.~SOCRATES: Then let us have a more
3684 Text |             PROTARCHUS: What principle?~SOCRATES: A principle about which
3685 Text |              PROTARCHUS: Speak plainer.~SOCRATES: The principle which has
3686 Text |                ten thousand other ways?~SOCRATES: Those, Protarchus, are
3687 Text |              one.~PROTARCHUS: But what, Socrates, are those other marvels
3688 Text |                common and acknowledged?~SOCRATES: When, my boy, the one does
3689 Text |             PROTARCHUS: Of what nature?~SOCRATES: In the first place, as
3690 Text |              helpful.~PROTARCHUS: Then, Socrates, let us begin by clearing
3691 Text |            clearing up these questions.~SOCRATES: That is what I should wish.~
3692 Text |             stir him up with questions.~SOCRATES: Good; and where shall we
3693 Text |            begin thus?~PROTARCHUS: How?~SOCRATES: We say that the one and
3694 Text |                PROTARCHUS: Considering, Socrates, how many we are, and that
3695 Text |                in which we are engaged, Socrates, is not unimportant.~SOCRATES:
3696 Text |           Socrates, is not unimportant.~SOCRATES: The reverse of unimportant,
3697 Text |       PROTARCHUS: Tell us what that is.~SOCRATES: One which may be easily
3698 Text |         PROTARCHUS: Tell us what it is.~SOCRATES: A gift of heaven, which,
3699 Text |                 I partly understand you Socrates, but I should like to have
3700 Text |                 of what you are saying.~SOCRATES: I may illustrate my meaning
3701 Text |                 afford an illustration?~SOCRATES: The sound which passes
3702 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And yet not by knowing
3703 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And the knowledge which
3704 Text |               kind.~PROTARCHUS: How so?~SOCRATES: Sound is one in music as
3705 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And there is a higher note
3706 Text |               so much?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: But you would not be a
3707 Text |             music.~PROTARCHUS: Nothing.~SOCRATES: But when you have learned
3708 Text |           PROTARCHUS: I think that what Socrates is now saying is excellent,
3709 Text |               us and upon the argument?~SOCRATES: Philebus is right in asking
3710 Text |                and you must answer him.~SOCRATES: I will; but you must let
3711 Text |           PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?~SOCRATES: Some god or divine man,
3712 Text |            which I just now complained.~SOCRATES: Are you going to ask, Philebus,
3713 Text |                I have been long asking.~SOCRATES: Assuredly you have already
3714 Text |               asking?~PHILEBUS: How so?~SOCRATES: Did we not begin by enquiring
3715 Text |            wisdom?~PHILEBUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And we maintain that they
3716 Text |               them one?~PHILEBUS: True.~SOCRATES: And the precise question
3717 Text |            question, Philebus, to which Socrates has ingeniously brought
3718 Text |                then, what we are to do:—Socrates, if I understood him rightly,
3719 Text |                 and the same of wisdom.~SOCRATES: Most true, O son of Callias;
3720 Text |                 be very near the truth, Socrates. Happy would the wise man
3721 Text |           moment? I will tell you. You, Socrates, have granted us this opportunity
3722 Text |                 against us in this way.~SOCRATES: In what way?~PHILEBUS:
3723 Text |            clearing up our controversy.~SOCRATES: If you say that, I have
3724 Text |                 PHILEBUS: What is that?~SOCRATES: I remember to have heard
3725 Text |                 right?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And there will cease to
3726 Text |           proceed.~PROTARCHUS: Capital, Socrates; pray go on as you propose.~
3727 Text |              pray go on as you propose.~SOCRATES: But, let us first agree
3728 Text |              PROTARCHUS: What are they?~SOCRATES: Is the good perfect or
3729 Text |           PROTARCHUS: The most perfect, Socrates, of all things.~SOCRATES:
3730 Text |                Socrates, of all things.~SOCRATES: And is the good sufficient?~
3731 Text |            surpassing all other things.~SOCRATES: And no one can deny that
3732 Text |         PROTARCHUS: That is undeniable.~SOCRATES: Now let us part off the
3733 Text |            PROTARCHUS: How do you mean?~SOCRATES: Let there be no wisdom
3734 Text |                 PROTARCHUS: Impossible.~SOCRATES: And will you help us to
3735 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Then answer.~PROTARCHUS:
3736 Text |                answer.~PROTARCHUS: Ask.~SOCRATES: Would you choose, Protarchus,
3737 Text |         PROTARCHUS: Certainly I should.~SOCRATES: Would you consider that
3738 Text |              PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: Reflect; would you not
3739 Text |                 should have all things.~SOCRATES: Living thus, you would
3740 Text |        pleasures?~PROTARCHUS: I should.~SOCRATES: But if you had neither
3741 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And similarly, if you had
3742 Text |              otherwise?~PROTARCHUS: No.~SOCRATES: But is such a life eligible?~
3743 Text |        PROTARCHUS: I cannot answer you, Socrates; the argument has taken
3744 Text |                 me the power of speech.~SOCRATES: We must keep up our spirits;—
3745 Text |              what is this life of mind?~SOCRATES: I want to know whether
3746 Text |               PROTARCHUS: Neither life, Socrates, appears eligible to me,
3747 Text |                 chosen by any one else.~SOCRATES: What would you say, Protarchus,
3748 Text |          pleasure with mind and wisdom?~SOCRATES: Yes, that is the life which
3749 Text |                and in addition to them.~SOCRATES: But do you see the consequence?~
3750 Text |         eligible for man or for animal.~SOCRATES: Then now there can be no
3751 Text |        Certainly that seems to be true.~SOCRATES: And now have I not sufficiently
3752 Text |                is your ‘mind’ the good, Socrates, for that will be open to
3753 Text |                 to the same objections.~SOCRATES: Perhaps, Philebus, you
3754 Text |               third.~PROTARCHUS: Truly, Socrates, pleasure appears to me
3755 Text |               appear as fair as before.~SOCRATES: Well, but had we not better
3756 Text |              her?~PROTARCHUS: Nonsense, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Why? because
3757 Text |         PROTARCHUS: Nonsense, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Why? because I said that
3758 Text |             have finished the argument.~SOCRATES: Heavens! Protarchus, that
3759 Text |         PROTARCHUS: Of course you must.~SOCRATES: Let us be very careful
3760 Text |           PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?~SOCRATES: Let us divide all existing
3761 Text |            would you make the division?~SOCRATES: Let us take some of our
3762 Text |              PROTARCHUS: Which of them?~SOCRATES: Were we not saying that
3763 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Let us assume these two
3764 Text |               you mean, my good friend?~SOCRATES: I say that a fourth class
3765 Text |          PROTARCHUS: What will that be?~SOCRATES: Find the cause of the third
3766 Text |                 a cause of composition?~SOCRATES: Not, I think, at present;
3767 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Let us begin with the first
3768 Text |            might be able to follow you.~SOCRATES: Well, the two classes are
3769 Text |         discussed.~PROTARCHUS: I agree.~SOCRATES: And now consider well;
3770 Text |          PROTARCHUS: That is most true.~SOCRATES: Ever, as we say, into the
3771 Text |                a less.~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Then, says the argument,
3772 Text |              infinite.~PROTARCHUS: Yes, Socrates, that is exceedingly true.~
3773 Text |               that is exceedingly true.~SOCRATES: Yes, my dear Protarchus,
3774 Text |        certainly has the look of truth, Socrates; but these subjects, as
3775 Text |       substantial agreement between us.~SOCRATES: Yes, and I will try to
3776 Text |             infinite—~PROTARCHUS: What?~SOCRATES: I want to know whether
3777 Text |              remember?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And all things which do
3778 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Excellent, Socrates.~SOCRATES: And now what
3779 Text |        PROTARCHUS: Excellent, Socrates.~SOCRATES: And now what nature shall
3780 Text |              will have to tell me that.~SOCRATES: Rather God will tell you,
3781 Text |                prayer, then, and think.~SOCRATES: I am thinking, Protarchus,
3782 Text |                 of what you are saying?~SOCRATES: I will tell you, and do
3783 Text |             words.~PROTARCHUS: Proceed.~SOCRATES: Were we not speaking just
3784 Text |               colder?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: Add to them drier, wetter,
3785 Text |                 the infinite, you mean?~SOCRATES: Yes; and now mingle this
3786 Text |          PROTARCHUS: What is the other.~SOCRATES: The class of the finite
3787 Text |                the class of the finite?~SOCRATES: The class of the equal
3788 Text |            finite, takes certain forms.~SOCRATES: Yes, that is my meaning.~
3789 Text |           meaning.~PROTARCHUS: Proceed.~SOCRATES: Does not the right participation
3790 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And whereas the high and
3791 Text |             PROTARCHUS: Yes, certainly.~SOCRATES: Or, again, when cold and
3792 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And from a like admixture
3793 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: I omit ten thousand other
3794 Text |               ways are much to my mind, Socrates.~SOCRATES: You will observe
3795 Text |              much to my mind, Socrates.~SOCRATES: You will observe that I
3796 Text |              third I am not so certain.~SOCRATES: That is because the amazing
3797 Text |         appeared one.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And the finite or limit
3798 Text |            nature one?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Yes, indeed; and when I
3799 Text |               PROTARCHUS: I understand.~SOCRATES: Still there was, as we
3800 Text |            anything which has no cause?~SOCRATES: And is not the agent the
3801 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And the same may be said
3802 Text |              not?~PROTARCHUS: We shall.~SOCRATES: The agent or cause always
3803 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Then the cause and what
3804 Text |            different?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: Did not the things which
3805 Text |               classes?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And the creator or cause
3806 Text |          PROTARCHUS: So let us call it.~SOCRATES: Quite right; but now, having
3807 Text |               PROTARCHUS: By all means.~SOCRATES: Then the first I will call
3808 Text |              PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: And now what is the next
3809 Text |            wisdom?~PROTARCHUS: We were.~SOCRATES: And now, having determined
3810 Text |                 PROTARCHUS: I dare say.~SOCRATES: We said, if you remember,
3811 Text |               we not?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And we see what is the
3812 Text |             PROTARCHUS: Beyond a doubt.~SOCRATES: This is evidently comprehended
3813 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: And what shall we say,
3814 Text |                  PHILEBUS: Let me hear.~SOCRATES: Have pleasure and pain
3815 Text |             class which admits of more, Socrates; for pleasure would not
3816 Text |                 in quantity and degree.~SOCRATES: Nor would pain, Philebus,
3817 Text |                  PHILEBUS: You magnify, Socrates, the importance of your
3818 Text |       importance of your favourite god.~SOCRATES: And you, my friend, are
3819 Text |               the question.~PROTARCHUS: Socrates is quite right, Philebus,
3820 Text |                 and I must entreat you, Socrates, to be our spokesman, and
3821 Text |        disrespectful of your favourite.~SOCRATES: I must obey you, Protarchus;
3822 Text |            PROTARCHUS: You did, indeed, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Yet the answer
3823 Text |              You did, indeed, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Yet the answer is easy,
3824 Text |         PHILEBUS: Take your own course, Socrates, and never mind length;
3825 Text |               we shall not tire of you.~SOCRATES: Very good; let us begin
3826 Text |              PROTARCHUS: What question?~SOCRATES: Whether all this which
3827 Text |                 assertions, illustrious Socrates, for that which you were
3828 Text |                 say or think otherwise.~SOCRATES: Shall we then agree with
3829 Text |             would certainly be my wish.~SOCRATES: Then now please to consider
3830 Text |                PROTARCHUS: Let me hear.~SOCRATES: We see that the elements
3831 Text |                we are at our wit’s end.~SOCRATES: There is something to be
3832 Text |                 PROTARCHUS: What is it?~SOCRATES: Only a small fraction of
3833 Text |             universe.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And is not our fire small
3834 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: And is the fire in the
3835 Text |             does not deserve an answer.~SOCRATES: Right; and you would say
3836 Text |                be deemed in his senses?~SOCRATES: I do not think that he
3837 Text |               body?~PROTARCHUS: We did.~SOCRATES: And the same may be said
3838 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: But is our body nourished
3839 Text |                 PROTARCHUS: That again, Socrates, is a question which does
3840 Text |                not deserve to be asked.~SOCRATES: Well, tell me, is this
3841 Text |              PROTARCHUS: What question?~SOCRATES: May our body be said to
3842 Text |              soul?~PROTARCHUS: Clearly.~SOCRATES: And whence comes that soul,
3843 Text |            source?~PROTARCHUS: Clearly, Socrates, that is the only source.~
3844 Text |                that is the only source.~SOCRATES: Why, yes, Protarchus; for
3845 Text |      supposition is quite unreasonable.~SOCRATES: Then if this be denied,
3846 Text |                PROTARCHUS: Most justly.~SOCRATES: And wisdom and mind cannot
3847 Text |              PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: And in the divine nature
3848 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: Do not then suppose that
3849 Text |             universe.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And they furnish an answer
3850 Text |          observe that you had answered.~SOCRATES: A jest is sometimes refreshing,
3851 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: I think, friend, that we
3852 Text |                 mind.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And the class to which
3853 Text |            discovered?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And let us remember, too,
3854 Text |              shall be sure to remember.~SOCRATES: We must next examine what
3855 Text |               the road, let us take it.~SOCRATES: I wonder whether you would
3856 Text |           PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?~SOCRATES: I mean to say that their
3857 Text |                you tell me again, sweet Socrates, which of the aforesaid
3858 Text |               classes is the mixed one?~SOCRATES: I will, my fine fellow,
3859 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Very good.~SOCRATES: Let us then understand
3860 Text |               am not mistaken, harmony.~SOCRATES: Capital; and now will you
3861 Text |                Proceed; I am attending.~SOCRATES: I say that when the harmony
3862 Text |                  That is very probable.~SOCRATES: And the restoration of
3863 Text |             believe that you are right, Socrates; but will you try to be
3864 Text |                 to be a little plainer?~SOCRATES: Do not obvious and every-day
3865 Text |             What phenomena do you mean?~SOCRATES: Hunger, for example, is
3866 Text |                 pain.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: Whereas eating is a replenishment
3867 Text |              pleasure?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Thirst again is a destruction
3868 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And the unnatural freezing
3869 Text |                say has a general truth.~SOCRATES: Here then is one kind of
3870 Text |            described?~PROTARCHUS: Good.~SOCRATES: Let us next assume that
3871 Text |                produced by expectation.~SOCRATES: Right; for in the analysis
3872 Text |            investigation should pursue.~SOCRATES: Well, then, assuming that
3873 Text |              PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: Then here we have a third
3874 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And do not forget that
3875 Text |       PROTARCHUS: What have you to say?~SOCRATES: Why, you know that if a
3876 Text |                rejoicing nor sorrowing?~SOCRATES: Yes; and if I remember
3877 Text |                  certainly, we said so.~SOCRATES: Then he will live without
3878 Text |              have either joy or sorrow.~SOCRATES: Certainly not—there would
3879 Text |             first.~PROTARCHUS: Just so.~SOCRATES: The other class of pleasures,
3880 Text |           PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?~SOCRATES: I must first of all analyze
3881 Text |       PROTARCHUS: How will you proceed?~SOCRATES: Let us imagine affections
3882 Text |              them.~PROTARCHUS: Granted.~SOCRATES: And the soul may be truly
3883 Text |                 PROTARCHUS: Quite true.~SOCRATES: When I say oblivious, do
3884 Text |               you see?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: Then just be so good as
3885 Text |                How shall I change them?~SOCRATES: Instead of the oblivion
3886 Text |     unconsciousness.~PROTARCHUS: I see.~SOCRATES: And the union or communion
3887 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: Then now we know the meaning
3888 Text |              the word?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And memory may, I think,
3889 Text |       consciousness?~PROTARCHUS: Right.~SOCRATES: But do we not distinguish
3890 Text |                 PROTARCHUS: I think so.~SOCRATES: And do we not mean by recollection
3891 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And when she recovers of
3892 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: There is a reason why I
3893 Text |                 PROTARCHUS: What is it?~SOCRATES: I want to attain the plainest
3894 Text |             both.~PROTARCHUS: Then now, Socrates, let us proceed to the next
3895 Text |              proceed to the next point.~SOCRATES: There are certainly many
3896 Text |              for we shall lose nothing.~SOCRATES: Nay, Protarchus, we shall
3897 Text |             retort; but let us proceed.~SOCRATES: Did we not place hunger,
3898 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And yet they are very different;
3899 Text |                 PROTARCHUS: By heavens, Socrates, that is a question which
3900 Text |                but it must be answered.~SOCRATES: Then let us go back to
3901 Text |       PROTARCHUS: Where shall we begin?~SOCRATES: Do we mean anything when
3902 Text |              thirsts’?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: We mean to say that he ‘
3903 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Of course.~SOCRATES: And is not thirst desire?~
3904 Text |              PROTARCHUS: Yes, of drink.~SOCRATES: Would you say of drink,
3905 Text |               replenishment with drink.~SOCRATES: Then he who is empty desires,
3906 Text |                 PROTARCHUS: Clearly so.~SOCRATES: But how can a man who is
3907 Text |                 PROTARCHUS: Impossible.~SOCRATES: And yet he who desires,
3908 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Of course.~SOCRATES: He does not desire that
3909 Text |        replenishment?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: Then there must be something
3910 Text |                 PROTARCHUS: There must.~SOCRATES: And that cannot be the
3911 Text |               emptied?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: The only remaining alternative
3912 Text |               cannot imagine any other.~SOCRATES: But do you see the consequence?~
3913 Text |                 PROTARCHUS: What is it?~SOCRATES: That there is no such thing
3914 Text |               body.~PROTARCHUS: Why so?~SOCRATES: Why, because the argument
3915 Text |                 state.~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And the impulse which leads
3916 Text |                state.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And the argument, having
3917 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: The argument will not allow
3918 Text |                PROTARCHUS: Quite right.~SOCRATES: Let me make a further observation;
3919 Text |                 life, are you speaking?~SOCRATES: I am speaking of being
3920 Text |                to it.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And what would you say
3921 Text |                 mean by ‘intermediate’?~SOCRATES: I mean when a person is
3922 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Would you say that he was
3923 Text |                longing and expectation.~SOCRATES: What do you mean, Protarchus,
3924 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And has he not the pleasure
3925 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Then man and the other
3926 Text |               PROTARCHUS: I suppose so.~SOCRATES: But when a man is empty
3927 Text |                 PROTARCHUS: Quite true, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Shall the enquiry
3928 Text |       PROTARCHUS: Quite true, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Shall the enquiry into
3929 Text |              PROTARCHUS: What question?~SOCRATES: Whether we ought to say
3930 Text |             false?~PROTARCHUS: But how, Socrates, can there be false pleasures
3931 Text |              false pleasures and pains?~SOCRATES: And how, Protarchus, can
3932 Text |               false, but not pleasures.~SOCRATES: What do you mean? I am
3933 Text |              PROTARCHUS: There I agree.~SOCRATES: And yet, my boy, for you
3934 Text |           argument.~PROTARCHUS: Surely.~SOCRATES: No tedious and irrelevant
3935 Text |           pertinent.~PROTARCHUS: Right.~SOCRATES: I am always wondering at
3936 Text |             raised.~PROTARCHUS: How so?~SOCRATES: Do you deny that some pleasures
3937 Text |            PROTARCHUS: To be sure I do.~SOCRATES: Would you say that no one
3938 Text |                 So we have always held, Socrates.~SOCRATES: But were you
3939 Text |             have always held, Socrates.~SOCRATES: But were you right? Shall
3940 Text |                 I think that we should.~SOCRATES: Let us then put into more
3941 Text |               opinion?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And such a thing as pleasure?~
3942 Text |              pleasure?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And an opinion must be
3943 Text |            something?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And a man must be pleased
3944 Text |              PROTARCHUS: Quite correct.~SOCRATES: And whether the opinion
3945 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And he who is pleased,
3946 Text |                that is also quite true.~SOCRATES: Then, how can opinion be
3947 Text |              Yes; that is the question.~SOCRATES: You mean that opinion admits
3948 Text |              examined?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And further, even if we
3949 Text |           quality?~PROTARCHUS: Clearly.~SOCRATES: But there is no difficulty
3950 Text |                 PROTARCHUS: Quite true.~SOCRATES: And if badness attaches
3951 Text |                 PROTARCHUS: Quite true, Socrates.~SOCRATES: And if rightness
3952 Text |       PROTARCHUS: Quite true, Socrates.~SOCRATES: And if rightness attaches
3953 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And if the thing opined
3954 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And if we see a pleasure
3955 Text |                 mistaken; how could we?~SOCRATES: And surely pleasure often
3956 Text |                 does; and in that case, Socrates, as we were saying, the
3957 Text |              the actual pleasure false.~SOCRATES: How eagerly, Protarchus,
3958 Text |              pleasure!~PROTARCHUS: Nay, Socrates, I only repeat what I hear.~
3959 Text |                only repeat what I hear.~SOCRATES: And is there no difference,
3960 Text |               difference, between them.~SOCRATES: Then, now let us proceed
3961 Text |                Lead, and I will follow.~SOCRATES: Well, then, my view is—~
3962 Text |                 PROTARCHUS: What is it?~SOCRATES: We agree—do we not?—that
3963 Text |               opinion?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And pleasure and pain,
3964 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And do not opinion and
3965 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Might we imagine the process
3966 Text |             PROTARCHUS: Of what nature?~SOCRATES: An object may be often
3967 Text |                PROTARCHUS: Very likely.~SOCRATES: Soon he begins to interrogate
3968 Text |             PROTARCHUS: In what manner?~SOCRATES: He asks himself—‘What is
3969 Text |           appearance.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: To which he may guess the
3970 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Very good.~SOCRATES: Or again, he may be misled,
3971 Text |            shepherds.’~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And if he has a companion,
3972 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: But if he be walking alone
3973 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: Well, now, I wonder whether
3974 Text |               What is your explanation?~SOCRATES: I think that the soul at
3975 Text |               book.~PROTARCHUS: How so?~SOCRATES: Memory and perception meet,
3976 Text |                agree to your statement.~SOCRATES: I must bespeak your favour
3977 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Who is he?~SOCRATES: The painter, who, after
3978 Text |                and how does he do this?~SOCRATES: When a man, besides receiving
3979 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And the images answering
3980 Text |              not?~PROTARCHUS: They are.~SOCRATES: If we are right so far,
3981 Text |                 PROTARCHUS: What is it?~SOCRATES: Whether we experience the
3982 Text |            relation to all times alike.~SOCRATES: Have not purely mental
3983 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: And do all those writings
3984 Text |               To the future, very much.~SOCRATES: When you say, ‘Very much,’
3985 Text |         existence?~PROTARCHUS: Exactly.~SOCRATES: Answer me another question.~
3986 Text |              PROTARCHUS: What question?~SOCRATES: A just and pious and good
3987 Text |            PROTARCHUS: Certainly he is.~SOCRATES: And the unjust and utterly
3988 Text |              reverse?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And all men, as we were
3989 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And these hopes, as they
3990 Text |                 of us?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And the fancies of hope
3991 Text |              fortune.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And may we not say that
3992 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: The bad, too, have pleasures
3993 Text |        pleasures.~PROTARCHUS: They are.~SOCRATES: The bad then commonly delight
3994 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Doubtless.~SOCRATES: Then upon this view there
3995 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: There are.~SOCRATES: And did we not allow that
3996 Text |                 PROTARCHUS: Quite true.~SOCRATES: And this was the source
3997 Text |                 right?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And must we not attribute
3998 Text |            PROTARCHUS: How do you mean?~SOCRATES: I mean to say that a man
3999 Text |                 exist.~PROTARCHUS: Yes, Socrates, that again is undeniable.~
4000 Text |               that again is undeniable.~SOCRATES: And may not the same be