(...) Philebus
     Part
4001 Text |            false?~PROTARCHUS: Quite so.~SOCRATES: And can opinions be good
4002 Text |            PROTARCHUS: In no other way.~SOCRATES: Nor can pleasures be conceived
4003 Text |                 false.~PROTARCHUS: Nay, Socrates, that is the very opposite
4004 Text |               to which they are liable.~SOCRATES: Well, of pleasures which
4005 Text |               there are such pleasures.~SOCRATES: I think that there are,
4006 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Very good.~SOCRATES: Then now, like wrestlers,
4007 Text |          argument.~PROTARCHUS: Proceed.~SOCRATES: We were maintaining a little
4008 Text |              remember that you said so.~SOCRATES: And the soul was supposed
4009 Text |          experienced.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: Then now you may infer
4010 Text |         PROTARCHUS: What am I to infer?~SOCRATES: That in such cases pleasures
4011 Text |             shown.~PROTARCHUS: Clearly.~SOCRATES: And there is another point
4012 Text |                 PROTARCHUS: What is it?~SOCRATES: That pleasure and pain
4013 Text |                  Certainly, we said so.~SOCRATES: But how can we rightly
4014 Text |                 PROTARCHUS: How can we?~SOCRATES: Is it our intention to
4015 Text |              judge of them accordingly.~SOCRATES: Well, take the case of
4016 Text |                 pains?~PROTARCHUS: Yes, Socrates, and in a degree far greater.~
4017 Text |                in a degree far greater.~SOCRATES: Then what we are now saying
4018 Text |              PROTARCHUS: What was that?~SOCRATES: Then the opinions were
4019 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: But now it is the pleasures
4020 Text |               reason which you mention.~SOCRATES: And suppose you part off
4021 Text |              PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: Next let us see whether
4022 Text |                 how shall we find them?~SOCRATES: If I am not mistaken, I
4023 Text |               that has been often said.~SOCRATES: And we have also agreed
4024 Text |            pleasure?~PROTARCHUS: Right.~SOCRATES: But now let us suppose
4025 Text |           PROTARCHUS: When can that be, Socrates?~SOCRATES: Your question,
4026 Text |             When can that be, Socrates?~SOCRATES: Your question, Protarchus,
4027 Text |          argument.~PROTARCHUS: Why not, Socrates?~SOCRATES: Because it does
4028 Text |          PROTARCHUS: Why not, Socrates?~SOCRATES: Because it does not prevent
4029 Text |          PROTARCHUS: And what was that?~SOCRATES: Why, Protarchus, admitting
4030 Text |                 either for good or bad?~SOCRATES: Yes.~PROTARCHUS: Why then,
4031 Text |              Yes.~PROTARCHUS: Why then, Socrates, I should suppose that there
4032 Text |              neither pleasure nor pain.~SOCRATES: Very good; but still, if
4033 Text |               are of no mean authority.~SOCRATES: Of course, for they are
4034 Text |                flight.~PROTARCHUS: How?~SOCRATES: To them we will say: ‘Good;
4035 Text |            alternative is the true one.~SOCRATES: Then we were not right
4036 Text |                pains?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: A better and more unexceptionable
4037 Text |              will be—~PROTARCHUS: What?~SOCRATES: If we say that the great
4038 Text |              neither.~PROTARCHUS: That, Socrates, is the more correct mode
4039 Text |               correct mode of speaking.~SOCRATES: But if this be true, the
4040 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: What life?~SOCRATES: The life which we affirmed
4041 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: We may assume then that
4042 Text |                there are three of them.~SOCRATES: But if so, the negation
4043 Text |              PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: Then when you hear a person
4044 Text |              mean the negative of pain.~SOCRATES: Let us take any three things;
4045 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Very good.~SOCRATES: Now, can that which is
4046 Text |                 PROTARCHUS: Impossible.~SOCRATES: No more can that neutral
4047 Text |              PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: And yet, my friend, there
4048 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And do they think that
4049 Text |                PROTARCHUS: They say so.~SOCRATES: And they must think or
4050 Text |              PROTARCHUS: I suppose not.~SOCRATES: And yet if pleasure and
4051 Text |        undoubtedly of distinct natures.~SOCRATES: Then shall we take the
4052 Text |          pleasant?~PROTARCHUS: But why, Socrates, do we ask the question
4053 Text |                I do not see the reason.~SOCRATES: You, Protarchus, have clearly
4054 Text |        PROTARCHUS: And who may they be?~SOCRATES: Certain persons who are
4055 Text |           pleasure.~PROTARCHUS: Indeed!~SOCRATES: They say that what the
4056 Text |              PROTARCHUS: And would you, Socrates, have us agree with them?~
4057 Text |                have us agree with them?~SOCRATES: Why, no, I would rather
4058 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Well said.~SOCRATES: Then let us enter into
4059 Text |                 the greatest instances.~SOCRATES: Then if we want to see
4060 Text |              that every one will agree.~SOCRATES: And the obvious instances
4061 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And are they felt by us
4062 Text |           PROTARCHUS: How will that be?~SOCRATES: Why, because we might be
4063 Text |             that is the natural answer.~SOCRATES: Well, but are not those
4064 Text |              desires?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And do not people who are
4065 Text |          obvious as soon as it is said.~SOCRATES: Well, then, shall we not
4066 Text |       PROTARCHUS: I think I follow you.~SOCRATES: You will soon have a better
4067 Text |                them shout with delight.~SOCRATES: Very good, and if this
4068 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And ought we not to select
4069 Text |        PROTARCHUS: To be sure we ought.~SOCRATES: Take the case of the pleasures
4070 Text |             PROTARCHUS: What disorders?~SOCRATES: The pleasures of unseemly
4071 Text |             PROTARCHUS: What pleasures?~SOCRATES: Such, for example, as the
4072 Text |        villainous mixture of some kind, Socrates, I should say.~SOCRATES:
4073 Text |                 Socrates, I should say.~SOCRATES: I did not introduce the
4074 Text |               this family of pleasures.~SOCRATES: You mean the pleasures
4075 Text |              pain?~PROTARCHUS: Exactly.~SOCRATES: There are some mixtures
4076 Text |                PROTARCHUS: How is that?~SOCRATES: Whenever, in the restoration
4077 Text |                 is very true to nature.~SOCRATES: And in these sorts of mixtures
4078 Text |         predominates?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: Of cases in which the pain
4079 Text |             pain.~PROTARCHUS: Quite so.~SOCRATES: Sometimes the element of
4080 Text |                PROTARCHUS: Yes, indeed.~SOCRATES: He will say of himself,
4081 Text |              mankind.~PROTARCHUS: That, Socrates, is a very true description
4082 Text |               majority about pleasures.~SOCRATES: Yes, Protarchus, quite
4083 Text |          believe that to be quite true.~SOCRATES: There still remains one
4084 Text |               PROTARCHUS: What is that?~SOCRATES: The union which, as we
4085 Text |           PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?~SOCRATES: Why, do we not speak of
4086 Text |             soul only?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And shall we not find them
4087 Text |                 connexion between them.~SOCRATES: And you remember also how
4088 Text |             PROTARCHUS: Certainly I do.~SOCRATES: And are you aware that
4089 Text |               not quite understand you.~SOCRATES: I admit, Protarchus, that
4090 Text |          PROTARCHUS: There is, I think.~SOCRATES: And the greater the obscurity
4091 Text |              less.~PROTARCHUS: Proceed.~SOCRATES: I have just mentioned envy;
4092 Text |              the soul?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And yet the envious man
4093 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And ignorance, and what
4094 Text |                 PROTARCHUS: To be sure.~SOCRATES: From these considerations
4095 Text |        ridiculous.~PROTARCHUS: Explain.~SOCRATES: The ridiculous is in short
4096 Text |           Delphi.~PROTARCHUS: You mean, Socrates, ‘Know thyself.’~SOCRATES:
4097 Text |               Socrates, ‘Know thyself.’~SOCRATES: I do; and the opposite
4098 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And now, O Protarchus,
4099 Text |                am afraid that I cannot.~SOCRATES: Do you mean to say that
4100 Text |              more, I beg that you will.~SOCRATES: Are there not three ways
4101 Text |              PROTARCHUS: What are they?~SOCRATES: In the first place, about
4102 Text |                 is a very common error.~SOCRATES: And still more often he
4103 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Of course.~SOCRATES: And yet surely by far the
4104 Text |                 the commonest delusion.~SOCRATES: And of all the virtues,
4105 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And may not all this be
4106 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Very evil.~SOCRATES: But we must pursue the
4107 Text |             division which you suggest?~SOCRATES: All who are silly enough
4108 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Let this, then, be the
4109 Text |                 of pleasures and pains.~SOCRATES: Well, then, let us examine
4110 Text |              envy.~PROTARCHUS: Proceed.~SOCRATES: Is not envy an unrighteous
4111 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: There is nothing envious
4112 Text |              PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: But to feel joy instead
4113 Text |                PROTARCHUS: Undoubtedly.~SOCRATES: Did we not say that ignorance
4114 Text |                 evil?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And the three kinds of
4115 Text |        PROTARCHUS: They are ridiculous.~SOCRATES: And do we not acknowledge
4116 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And do we feel pain or
4117 Text |               Clearly we feel pleasure.~SOCRATES: And was not envy the source
4118 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Then the argument shows
4119 Text |              instant.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And the argument implies
4120 Text |              one can deny what you say, Socrates, however eager he may be
4121 Text |            assert the opposite opinion.~SOCRATES: I mentioned anger, desire,
4122 Text |                 I not?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: We may observe that our
4123 Text |               anger.~PROTARCHUS: I see.~SOCRATES: Then many other cases still
4124 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And why do you suppose
4125 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Very good, Socrates; in what remains take your
4126 Text |           remains take your own course.~SOCRATES: Then after the mixed pleasures
4127 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Excellent.~SOCRATES: These, in turn, then, I
4128 Text |        PROTARCHUS: Then what pleasures, Socrates, should we be right in conceiving
4129 Text |               in conceiving to be true?~SOCRATES: True pleasures are those
4130 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Once more, Socrates, I must ask what you mean.~
4131 Text |                 must ask what you mean.~SOCRATES: My meaning is certainly
4132 Text |                am trying to understand, Socrates, and I hope that you will
4133 Text |              make your meaning clearer.~SOCRATES: When sounds are smooth
4134 Text |               there are such pleasures.~SOCRATES: The pleasures of smell
4135 Text |               PROTARCHUS: I understand.~SOCRATES: To these may be added the
4136 Text |       PROTARCHUS: And this is the case.~SOCRATES: Well, but if a man who
4137 Text |              the loss of his knowledge.~SOCRATES: Yes, my friend, but at
4138 Text |                 not attended with pain.~SOCRATES: These pleasures of knowledge,
4139 Text |                 PROTARCHUS: Quite true.~SOCRATES: And now, having fairly
4140 Text |                PROTARCHUS: Quite right, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Still there is
4141 Text |                  Quite right, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Still there is something
4142 Text |                 PROTARCHUS: What is it?~SOCRATES: When you speak of purity
4143 Text |             PROTARCHUS: Why do you ask, Socrates?~SOCRATES: Because, Protarchus,
4144 Text |               Why do you ask, Socrates?~SOCRATES: Because, Protarchus, I
4145 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: Let us investigate all
4146 Text |               instance shall we select?~SOCRATES: Suppose that we first of
4147 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Very good.~SOCRATES: How can there be purity
4148 Text |            which is most unadulterated.~SOCRATES: True, Protarchus; and so
4149 Text |           beautiful?~PROTARCHUS: Right.~SOCRATES: And we shall be quite right
4150 Text |            PROTARCHUS: Perfectly right.~SOCRATES: There is no need of adducing
4151 Text |              given is quite sufficient.~SOCRATES: But what do you say of
4152 Text |          PROTARCHUS: What do they mean?~SOCRATES: I will explain to you,
4153 Text |                 Ask, and I will answer.~SOCRATES: I assume that there are
4154 Text |             manner of natures are they?~SOCRATES: The one majestic ever,
4155 Text |          PROTARCHUS: You speak riddles.~SOCRATES: You have seen loves good
4156 Text |          PROTARCHUS: I should think so.~SOCRATES: Search the universe for
4157 Text |               say, Be a little plainer, Socrates.~SOCRATES: There is no difficulty,
4158 Text |               little plainer, Socrates.~SOCRATES: There is no difficulty,
4159 Text |             make me slow to understand.~SOCRATES: As the argument proceeds,
4160 Text |                PROTARCHUS: Very likely.~SOCRATES: Here are two new principles.~
4161 Text |              PROTARCHUS: What are they?~SOCRATES: One is the generation of
4162 Text |                 generation and essence.~SOCRATES: Very right; and would you
4163 Text |                 the sake of generation?~SOCRATES: Yes.~PROTARCHUS: By the
4164 Text |             would repeat your question.~SOCRATES: I mean, O my Protarchus,
4165 Text |                you not answer yourself, Socrates?~SOCRATES: I have no objection,
4166 Text |              answer yourself, Socrates?~SOCRATES: I have no objection, but
4167 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: My answer is, that all
4168 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Assuredly.~SOCRATES: Then pleasure, being a
4169 Text |              essence?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And that for the sake of
4170 Text |             PROTARCHUS: Most certainly.~SOCRATES: Then pleasure, being a
4171 Text |                PROTARCHUS: Quite right.~SOCRATES: Then, as I said at first,
4172 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Assuredly.~SOCRATES: And he would surely laugh
4173 Text |                  and what do they mean?~SOCRATES: I am speaking of those
4174 Text |              what they appear to think.~SOCRATES: And is not destruction
4175 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Then he who chooses thus,
4176 Text |          involved in great absurdities, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Great, indeed;
4177 Text |            great absurdities, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Great, indeed; and there
4178 Text |                 PROTARCHUS: What is it?~SOCRATES: Is there not an absurdity
4179 Text |            virtue?~PROTARCHUS: Nothing, Socrates, can be more irrational
4180 Text |               irrational than all this.~SOCRATES: And now, having subjected
4181 Text |            judgment.~PROTARCHUS: Right.~SOCRATES: Knowledge has two parts,—
4182 Text |          educational?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And in the productive or
4183 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Let us separate the superior
4184 Text |               how do you separate them?~SOCRATES: I mean to say, that if
4185 Text |        PROTARCHUS: Not much, certainly.~SOCRATES: The rest will be only conjecture,
4186 Text |                Nothing more, assuredly.~SOCRATES: Music, for instance, is
4187 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: And the same will be found
4188 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: The art of the builder,
4189 Text |                PROTARCHUS: How is that?~SOCRATES: In ship-building and house-building,
4190 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Very true, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Then now let
4191 Text |        PROTARCHUS: Very true, Socrates.~SOCRATES: Then now let us divide
4192 Text |              Let us make that division.~SOCRATES: Of the latter class, the
4193 Text |                 weighing and measuring.~SOCRATES: Certainly, Protarchus;
4194 Text |                 What are the two kinds?~SOCRATES: In the first place, arithmetic
4195 Text |             would you distinguish them?~SOCRATES: There is a wide difference
4196 Text |                two sorts of arithmetic.~SOCRATES: And when we compare the
4197 Text |                they were severally two.~SOCRATES: Right; but do you understand
4198 Text |                 like to be told by you.~SOCRATES: The argument has all along
4199 Text |                 that was the intention.~SOCRATES: And has not the argument
4200 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And just now did not the
4201 Text |                 the argument is asking.~SOCRATES: And how, Protarchus, shall
4202 Text |              the enquiry?~PROTARCHUS: O Socrates, we have reached a point
4203 Text |               of knowledge is enormous.~SOCRATES: Then the answer will be
4204 Text |         superior in accuracy and truth.~SOCRATES: Then this is your judgment;
4205 Text |                PROTARCHUS: What answer?~SOCRATES: That there are two arts
4206 Text |              masters of whom you speak, Socrates, and hope for good luck.~
4207 Text |                 and hope for good luck.~SOCRATES: We have explained what
4208 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Very good.~SOCRATES: And yet, Protarchus, dialectic
4209 Text |                pray, what is dialectic?~SOCRATES: Clearly the science which
4210 Text |                 heard Gorgias maintain, Socrates, that the art of persuasion
4211 Text |            either with you or with him.~SOCRATES: You mean to say that you
4212 Text |              PROTARCHUS: As you please.~SOCRATES: May I not have led you
4213 Text |       misapprehension?~PROTARCHUS: How?~SOCRATES: Dear Protarchus, I never
4214 Text |                 of the truth than this.~SOCRATES: Do you say so because you
4215 Text |                spent?~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: He is labouring, not after
4216 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And can we say that any
4217 Text |                 PROTARCHUS: Impossible.~SOCRATES: How can anything fixed
4218 Text |                 PROTARCHUS: How indeed?~SOCRATES: Then mind and science when
4219 Text |       PROTARCHUS: I should imagine not.~SOCRATES: And now let us bid farewell,
4220 Text |                 PROTARCHUS: What point?~SOCRATES: Let us say that the stable
4221 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: And of the names expressing
4222 Text |            PROTARCHUS: That is natural.~SOCRATES: And are not mind and wisdom
4223 Text |         honoured most?~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And these names may be
4224 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And these were the names
4225 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Very true, Socrates.~SOCRATES: In the next place,
4226 Text |        PROTARCHUS: Very true, Socrates.~SOCRATES: In the next place, as to
4227 Text |                 hands.~PROTARCHUS: Yes.~SOCRATES: And now we must begin to
4228 Text |               PROTARCHUS: By all means.~SOCRATES: But had we not better have
4229 Text |          memories?~PROTARCHUS: Of what?~SOCRATES: Of that which I have already
4230 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Well then, by Zeus, let
4231 Text |                PROTARCHUS: Let me hear.~SOCRATES: Philebus says that pleasure
4232 Text |               one thing and one nature; Socrates, on the other hand, begins
4233 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And is there not and was
4234 Text |                PROTARCHUS: What was it?~SOCRATES: That the good differs from
4235 Text |            PROTARCHUS: In what respect?~SOCRATES: In that the being who possesses
4236 Text |              else.~PROTARCHUS: Exactly.~SOCRATES: And did we not endeavour
4237 Text |           pleasure?~PROTARCHUS: We did.~SOCRATES: And did we think that either
4238 Text |              PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.~SOCRATES: And if we erred in any
4239 Text |              PROTARCHUS: Certainly not, Socrates; but why repeat such questions
4240 Text |                such questions any more?~SOCRATES: Then the perfect and universally
4241 Text |                 PROTARCHUS: Impossible.~SOCRATES: Then now we must ascertain
4242 Text |            assigned.~PROTARCHUS: Right.~SOCRATES: Have we not found a road
4243 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: What road?~SOCRATES: Supposing that a man had
4244 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And now reason intimates
4245 Text |                mixed.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: There is greater hope of
4246 Text |                PROTARCHUS: Far greater.~SOCRATES: Then now let us mingle,
4247 Text |               PROTARCHUS: By all means.~SOCRATES: Are not we the cup-bearers?
4248 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Tell me first;—should we
4249 Text |           PROTARCHUS: Perhaps we might.~SOCRATES: But I should be afraid
4250 Text |                 PROTARCHUS: What is it?~SOCRATES: One pleasure was supposed
4251 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: There was also supposed
4252 Text |        PROTARCHUS: Very good and right.~SOCRATES: If, then, we were to begin
4253 Text |                 to do what you suggest.~SOCRATES: Let us suppose a man who
4254 Text |                will suppose such a man.~SOCRATES: Will he have enough of
4255 Text |               which is only superhuman, Socrates, is ridiculous in man.~SOCRATES:
4256 Text |         Socrates, is ridiculous in man.~SOCRATES: What do you mean? Do you
4257 Text |              ever to find his way home.~SOCRATES: And am I to include music,
4258 Text |                 is to be a life at all.~SOCRATES: Well, then, suppose that
4259 Text |              PROTARCHUS: I do not know, Socrates, that any great harm would
4260 Text |                you have the first sort.~SOCRATES: Well, then, shall I let
4261 Text |               PROTARCHUS: By all means.~SOCRATES: There—I have let them in,
4262 Text |                 PROTARCHUS: Quite true.~SOCRATES: And now the time has come
4263 Text |               flow the true ones first.~SOCRATES: Let them flow, then; and
4264 Text |         certainly be allowed to mingle.~SOCRATES: The knowledge of the arts
4265 Text |              what course shall we take?~SOCRATES: Do not ask me, Protarchus;
4266 Text |            themselves.~PROTARCHUS: How?~SOCRATES: Tell us, O beloved—shall
4267 Text |               follows:~PROTARCHUS: How?~SOCRATES: They would answer, as we
4268 Text |               that ye have spoken well.~SOCRATES: Very true. And now let
4269 Text |              PROTARCHUS: Likely enough.~SOCRATES: And we shall take up our
4270 Text |                 to the true ones? ‘Why, Socrates,’ they will say, ‘how can
4271 Text |             PROTARCHUS: Most certainly.~SOCRATES: And still there must be
4272 Text |               PROTARCHUS: What is that?~SOCRATES: Unless truth enter into
4273 Text |                 PROTARCHUS: Impossible.~SOCRATES: Quite impossible; and now
4274 Text |           PROTARCHUS: I agree with you, Socrates.~SOCRATES: And may we not
4275 Text |               agree with you, Socrates.~SOCRATES: And may we not say with
4276 Text |        PROTARCHUS: I think that we are.~SOCRATES: What, then, is there in
4277 Text |                be better able to judge.~SOCRATES: And there is no difficulty
4278 Text |           PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?~SOCRATES: Every man knows it.~PROTARCHUS:
4279 Text |             knows it.~PROTARCHUS: What?~SOCRATES: He knows that any want
4280 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: And now the power of the
4281 Text |                 over.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: Also we said that truth
4282 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: Then, if we are not able
4283 Text |                PROTARCHUS: Quite right.~SOCRATES: And now, Protarchus, any
4284 Text |           better be pursued to the end.~SOCRATES: We must take each of them
4285 Text |             beauty, truth, and measure?~SOCRATES: Yes, Protarchus, take truth
4286 Text |             like truth, and the truest.~SOCRATES: Shall we next consider
4287 Text |                than mind and knowledge.~SOCRATES: Very good; but there still
4288 Text |                two?~PROTARCHUS: No one, Socrates, either awake or dreaming,
4289 Text |               past, present, or future.~SOCRATES: Right.~PROTARCHUS: But
4290 Text |                 to meet the eye of day.~SOCRATES: Then, Protarchus, you will
4291 Text |                 what has been now said.~SOCRATES: In the second class is
4292 Text |               family.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: And if you reckon in the
4293 Text |                 PROTARCHUS: I dare say.~SOCRATES: And would you not put in
4294 Text |                 is.~PROTARCHUS: Surely.~SOCRATES: The fifth class are the
4295 Text |            senses.~PROTARCHUS: Perhaps.~SOCRATES: And now, as Orpheus says,~‘
4296 Text |            discourse.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: Then let us sum up and
4297 Text |          saviour Zeus.~PROTARCHUS: How?~SOCRATES: Philebus affirmed that
4298 Text |        understand; this third libation, Socrates, of which you spoke, meant
4299 Text |                 meant a recapitulation.~SOCRATES: Yes, but listen to the
4300 Text |             pleasure.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: But, suspecting that there
4301 Text |             first.~PROTARCHUS: You did.~SOCRATES: Nothing could be more satisfactorily
4302 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Very true.~SOCRATES: The claims both of pleasure
4303 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Most true.~SOCRATES: But, though they must both
4304 Text |                  PROTARCHUS: Certainly.~SOCRATES: And, according to the judgment
4305 Text |                fifth.~PROTARCHUS: True.~SOCRATES: But not first; no, not
4306 Text |        philosophy.~PROTARCHUS: And now, Socrates, we tell you that the truth
4307 Text |              the judgment of all of us.~SOCRATES: And will you let me go?~


Protagoras
     Part
4308 Intro|                is put into the mouth of Socrates, who describes a conversation
4309 Intro|                part of Hippocrates that Socrates would introduce him to the
4310 Intro|            risen—so fervid is his zeal. Socrates moderates his excitement
4311 Intro|               the house of Callias; and Socrates, after explaining the purpose
4312 Intro|                what will he be better?’—Socrates desires to have a more precise
4313 Intro|                of human life.’~This, as Socrates admits, is a noble profession;
4314 Intro|               citizens? To the doubt of Socrates the best answer is the fact,
4315 Intro|               savages. (5) The error of Socrates lies in supposing that there
4316 Intro|               we ought to be satisfied.~Socrates is highly delighted with
4317 Intro|                up and cross-examined by Socrates:—~‘Is justice just, and
4318 Intro|                 way from the cunning of Socrates, who inveigles him into
4319 Intro|          compelled by the dialectics of Socrates to admit that the temperate
4320 Intro|              declaration on the part of Socrates that he cannot follow a
4321 Intro|             cases are not parallel. For Socrates admits his inability to
4322 Intro|               to be the umpire? rejoins Socrates; he would rather suggest
4323 Intro|               is this to be reconciled? Socrates, who is familiar with the
4324 Intro|               when Protagoras reclaims, Socrates slily withdraws Prodicus
4325 Intro|              but ‘hard to become good.’ Socrates proceeds to argue in a highly
4326 Intro|              some disdainful remarks of Socrates on the practice of introducing
4327 Intro|               Protagoras by Callias and Socrates, and then the old question
4328 Intro|            courage, is unlike the rest. Socrates proceeds to undermine the
4329 Intro|                 is admitted. Then, says Socrates, courage is knowledge—an
4330 Intro|           confident in a fluent speech.~Socrates renews the attack from another
4331 Intro|                 dialogue,’ conducted by Socrates and Protagoras on the one
4332 Intro|            soundness of the conclusion.~Socrates then applies this new conclusion
4333 Intro|        extracted with great difficulty.~Socrates concludes by professing
4334 Intro|                 began by asserting, and Socrates by denying, the teachableness
4335 Intro|                this offer, but commends Socrates’ earnestness and his style
4336 Intro|                wrong, and his adversary Socrates in the right; or that in
4337 Intro|         subtlety of the work, which, as Socrates says of the poem of Simonides,
4338 Intro|         introducing Hippocrates to him, Socrates thinks proper to warn the
4339 Intro|                adopts the suggestion of Socrates that he shall learn of Protagoras
4340 Intro|        sophistical cross-examination of Socrates. Although once or twice
4341 Intro|               is that he is inferior to Socrates in dialectics. The opposition
4342 Intro|              opposition between him and Socrates is not the opposition of
4343 Intro|          argument; also of the irony of Socrates and the self-assertion of
4344 Intro|                side of Protagoras as of Socrates; but the truth of Protagoras
4345 Intro|                 morality, while that of Socrates is paradoxical or transcendental,
4346 Intro|              average public opinion and Socrates seeking for increased clearness
4347 Intro|             virtue can be taught (which Socrates himself, at the end of the
4348 Intro|              part of the Dialogue, when Socrates is arguing that ‘pleasure
4349 Intro|                any reason to doubt that Socrates is equally an historical
4350 Intro|                 superiority.~The aim of Socrates, and of the Dialogue, is
4351 Intro|               arguments.~The victory of Socrates over Protagoras is in every
4352 Intro|               after two or three blows. Socrates partially gains his object
4353 Intro|           commencement of the Dialogue, Socrates sets up the proverbial philosophers
4354 Intro|                reconcilement offered by Socrates is a caricature of the methods
4355 Intro|                interpretations given by Socrates. (2) The ludicrous opening
4356 Intro|          express the rival doctrines of Socrates and Protagoras, and is a
4357 Intro|            depreciating spirit in which Socrates speaks of the introduction
4358 Intro|             interpretation of Simonides Socrates is ‘fooling,’ how far he
4359 Intro|                 gradual substitution of Socrates in the second part for Protagoras
4360 Intro|                lending effectual aid to Socrates; there is Critias assuming
4361 Intro|                 it may be observed that Socrates shows him as much respect
4362 Intro|            argument, therefore, and not Socrates or Protagoras, has won the
4363 Intro|                 has won the day.~But is Socrates serious in maintaining (
4364 Intro|               sort as the profession of Socrates that he knew nothing. Plato
4365 Intro|             Here, as Aristotle remarks, Socrates and Plato outstep the truth—
4366 Intro|                following the historical Socrates as he is depicted to us
4367 Intro|            Xenophon’s Memorabilia. Like Socrates, he finds on the surface
4368 Intro|             doctrine of ideas; the real Socrates is already passing into
4369 Intro|              inseparable. The thesis of Socrates is not merely a hasty assumption,
4370 Text |                PERSONS OF THE DIALOGUE: Socrates, who is the narrator of
4371 Text |                 Where do you come from, Socrates? And yet I need hardly ask
4372 Text |                was still very charming.~SOCRATES: What of his beard? Are
4373 Text |                 was he gracious to you?~SOCRATES: Yes, I thought that he
4374 Text |                 in this city of Athens.~SOCRATES: Yes, much fairer.~COMPANION:
4375 Text |                 citizen or a foreigner?~SOCRATES: A foreigner.~COMPANION:
4376 Text |             COMPANION: Of what country?~SOCRATES: Of Abdera.~COMPANION: And
4377 Text |               than the son of Cleinias?~SOCRATES: And is not the wiser always
4378 Text |                But have you really met, Socrates, with some wise one?~SOCRATES:
4379 Text |           Socrates, with some wise one?~SOCRATES: Say rather, with the wisest
4380 Text |                Is Protagoras in Athens?~SOCRATES: Yes; he has been here two
4381 Text |             from an interview with him?~SOCRATES: Yes; and I have heard and
4382 Text |               give up his place to you.~SOCRATES: To be sure; and I shall
4383 Text |               you, too, for telling us.~SOCRATES: That is thank you twice
4384 Text |              rushing in and bawled out: Socrates, are you awake or asleep?~
4385 Text |           laughing: Yes, indeed he has, Socrates, of the wisdom which he
4386 Text |                 and all men praise him, Socrates; he is reputed to be the
4387 Text |             were to say to us: Tell me, Socrates, and you Hippocrates, what
4388 Text |                They call him a Sophist, Socrates, he replied.~Then we are
4389 Text |         character of a Sophist?~Indeed, Socrates, to confess the truth, I
4390 Text |               How should we answer him, Socrates? What other answer could
4391 Text |            replied: No other inference, Socrates, can be drawn from your
4392 Text |                be his nature.~And what, Socrates, is the food of the soul?~
4393 Text |                 the company.~Thank you, Socrates, for your consideration
4394 Text |              the company are assembled, Socrates, tell me about the young
4395 Text |                men good citizens?~That, Socrates, is exactly the profession
4396 Text |                be so good?~That I will, Socrates, and gladly. But what would
4397 Text |                 And this is the reason, Socrates, why the Athenians and mankind
4398 Text |                I have explained to you, Socrates, the reason of this phenomenon.~
4399 Text |            acquired. If you will think, Socrates, of the nature of punishment,
4400 Text |          acquired and taught. Thus far, Socrates, I have shown you clearly
4401 Text |       distinguish themselves? And here, Socrates, I will leave the apologue
4402 Text |                 How improbable is this, Socrates!~Education and admonition
4403 Text |                private and public, why, Socrates, do you still wonder and
4404 Text |          flute-playing, do you imagine, Socrates, that the sons of good flute-players
4405 Text |                 part of the world. You, Socrates, are discontented, and why?
4406 Text |            certainly have a difficulty, Socrates, in finding a teacher of
4407 Text |             value.~Such is my Apologue, Socrates, and such is the argument
4408 Text |                 There is no difficulty, Socrates, in answering that the qualities
4409 Text |                 say that they differed, Socrates, in the first way; they
4410 Text |                simile would imply.~Yes, Socrates, you are right in supposing
4411 Text |                  O Protagoras, and you, Socrates, what about this thing which
4412 Text |              the truth of what he said, Socrates.~Well then, Protagoras,
4413 Text |                  I cannot simply agree, Socrates, to the proposition that
4414 Text |         injustice?~I should be ashamed, Socrates, he said, to acknowledge
4415 Text |                more compendious method.~Socrates, he replied, many a battle
4416 Text |             said: We cannot let you go, Socrates, for if you leave us there
4417 Text |            humble opinion.~But you see, Socrates, said Callias, that Protagoras
4418 Text |                the case. For our friend Socrates admits that he cannot make
4419 Text |          confess that he is inferior to Socrates in argumentative skill,
4420 Text |               skill, that is enough for Socrates; but if he claims a superiority
4421 Text |             question at issue (not that Socrates is likely to forget—I will
4422 Text |               he has a bad memory). And Socrates appears to me to be more
4423 Text |              not be partisans either of Socrates or of Protagoras; let us
4424 Text |                 beg you, Protagoras and Socrates, to grant our request, which
4425 Text |               you, Protagoras, and you, Socrates, to agree upon a compromise.
4426 Text |            peacemakers. And do not you, Socrates, aim at this precise and
4427 Text |              follows:—~I am of opinion, Socrates, he said, that skill in
4428 Text |       Protagoras said: Your correction, Socrates, involves a greater error
4429 Text |                  Hippias said: I think, Socrates, that you have given a very
4430 Text |          compact which was made between Socrates and Protagoras, to the effect
4431 Text |           Protagoras is willing to ask, Socrates should answer; or that if
4432 Text |                rather answer, then that Socrates should ask.~I said: I wish
4433 Text |                 his intention; and then Socrates will be able to discourse
4434 Text |             make trial of me.~I answer, Socrates, he said, that all these
4435 Text |            wisdom will be courage.~Nay, Socrates, he replied, you are mistaken
4436 Text |                 are bad.~I do not know, Socrates, he said, whether I can
4437 Text |               favourite mode of speech, Socrates, ‘Let us reflect about this,’
4438 Text |             help him?~I agree with you, Socrates, said Protagoras; and not
4439 Text |               just now mentioning.~Yes, Socrates, he replied; and that is
4440 Text |              they would probably reply: Socrates and Protagoras, if this
4441 Text |               you describe it?~But why, Socrates, should we trouble ourselves
4442 Text |              For if any one says: ‘Yes, Socrates, but immediate pleasure
4443 Text |              rejoined: O Protagoras and Socrates, what is the meaning of
4444 Text |                 He said: You will find, Socrates, that some of the most impious,
4445 Text |             where there is danger?~Yes, Socrates, so men say.~Very true,
4446 Text |               the same things.~And yet, Socrates, said Protagoras, that to
4447 Text |             ambition to make me answer, Socrates, and therefore I will gratify
4448 Text |                 saying: ‘Protagoras and Socrates, you are strange beings;
4449 Text |          strange beings; there are you, Socrates, who were saying that virtue
4450 Text |            enquiry.~Protagoras replied: Socrates, I am not of a base nature,


The Republic
     Book
4451 1    |                 Persons of the Dialogue~SOCRATES, who is the narrator. CEPHALUS.~
4452 1    |                 dialogue is narrated by Socrates the day after it actually
4453 1    |                 said to me, I perceive, Socrates, that you and your companion
4454 1    |               You don't come to see me, Socrates, as often as you ought:
4455 1    |                of it? ~I will tell you, Socrates, he said, what my own feeling
4456 1    |                is the cause. But to me, Socrates, these complainers seem
4457 1    |              but of many. The truth is, Socrates, that these regrets, and
4458 1    |             acquired by you? ~Acquired! Socrates; do you want to know how
4459 1    |            others. For let me tell you, Socrates, that when a man thinks
4460 1    |                justice. ~Quite correct, Socrates, if Simonides is to be believed,
4461 1    |                gives, and to whom? ~If, Socrates, we are to be guided at
4462 1    |                of peace? ~In contracts, Socrates, justice is of use. ~And
4463 1    |            those who do no wrong? ~Nay, Socrates; the doctrine is immoral. ~
4464 1    |             what you say is quite true, Socrates. ~Then if a man says that
4465 1    |              whole company: What folly, Socrates, has taken possession of
4466 1    |                   How characteristic of Socrates! he replied, with a bitter
4467 1    |                 replied. ~But you have, Socrates, said Glaucon: and you,
4468 1    |                 make a contribution for Socrates. ~Yes, he replied, and then
4469 1    |               Yes, he replied, and then Socrates will do as he always does -
4470 1    |                  he said, the wisdom of Socrates; he refuses to teach himself,
4471 1    |               That's abominable of you, Socrates; you take the words in the
4472 1    |                 Nothing can be clearer, Socrates, said Polemarchus. ~Yes,
4473 1    |                 argue like an informer, Socrates. Do you mean, for example,
4474 1    |          replying to me, said, Tell me, Socrates, have you got a nurse? ~
4475 1    |          Consider further, most foolish Socrates, that the just is always
4476 1    |              And thus, as I have shown, Socrates, injustice, when on a sufficient
4477 1    |            refusing. ~What do you mean, Socrates? said Glaucon. The first
4478 1    |                than justice. ~Let this, Socrates, he said, be your entertainment
4479 2    |               THE STATE, AND EDUCATION~(SOCRATES, GLAUCON.) ~WITH these words
4480 2    |           battle out. So he said to me: Socrates, do you wish really to persuade
4481 2    |          just-if what they say is true, Socrates, since I myself am not of
4482 2    |                is the received account, Socrates, of the nature and origin
4483 2    |           coarse, I ask you to suppose, Socrates, that the words which follow
4484 2    |              are to the gods. And thus, Socrates, gods and men are said to
4485 2    |                his brother, interposed: Socrates, he said, you do not suppose
4486 2    |        censuring the other. ~Once more, Socrates, I will ask you to consider
4487 2    |              tell us. Knowing all this, Socrates, how can a man who has any
4488 2    |                  The cause of all this, Socrates, was indicated by us at
4489 2    |              children after them. ~Yes, Socrates, he said, and if you were
4490 2    |          accumulation of wealth? ~That, Socrates, will be inevitable. ~And
4491 3    |                  THE ARTS IN EDUCATION~(SOCRATES, ADEIMANTUS.) ~SUCH, then,
4492 3    |                right sort? ~No, indeed, Socrates, it must never come near
4493 3    |                son of a god. ~All that, Socrates, is excellent; but I should
4494 3    |          strings. ~You are quite right, Socrates. ~And such a presiding genius
4495 4    |                 AND VIRTUE~(ADEIMANTUS, SOCRATES.) ~HERE Adeimantus interposed
4496 4    |         question: How would you answer, Socrates, said he, if a person were
4497 4    |            still I should like to know, Socrates, how our city will be able
4498 4    |           recklessness, ending at last, Socrates, by an overthrow of all
4499 4    |             easy question! Nay, rather, Socrates, the proverb holds that
4500 4    |              have said the exact truth, Socrates. ~Very good; and if we were